Fundie stuff I do not get

[formergothardite]

I will give ITOG a benefit of a doubt that the reason she hasn't come back to answer some of the questions is because she is busy irl, but if she comes back and starts posting like this thread never happened, I will bump it until she does.

I really wish she would explain why she is showing mercy and compassion to people who she is saying assisting in the killing of babies. If a fetus is a real baby, shouldn't it be treated like one? Why is she not?

[2xx1xy1JD]

JFC - I just googled Pete Singer, and sort of wish that I hadn't. If idiot fundies turn people off of religion, then I'm afraid that Singer's ethics could have the opposite effect - turning people toward religion, and painting abortion as being morally equivalent to baby killing.

My view on the abortion issue comes from a very different framework (based on the Canadian case law, which follows different reasoning that Roe v. Wade). I believe that the question of whether it is moral for a woman to decide to terminate her pregnancy is entirely different from the question of whether it is moral for the state to be able to intrude control what people do with their bodies in a very significant way, that could include exposing them to the risk of bodily harm. In legal terms, I would say that the jurisdiction of the state ends where the body begins. So, society isn't saying that certain decisions are necessarily moral - it is saying that those decisions are the moral responsibility of the mother and that it has no authority to forcibly intervene, although it may provide education and support to encourage better decisions. In practical terms, this can mean that the state has no right to take a pregnant woman into custody and tie her to the bed to get treatment for substance abuse, but it can recognize that substance abuse by a pregnant woman is objectively harmful, provide public service announcements and public health programs to deal with it, and even authorize child protection workers to take custody of the newborn the moment that it is born if substance abuse during pregnancy was an issue.

[itsthatonegirl]

I will give ITOG a benefit of a doubt that the reason she hasn't come back to answer some of the questions is because she is busy irl, but if she comes back and starts posting like this thread never happened, I will bump it until she does.

I really wish she would explain why she is showing mercy and compassion to people who she is saying assisting in the killing of babies. If a fetus is a real baby, shouldn't it be treated like one? Why is she not?

I was busy IRL, but also, I have explained to the best of my ability at the current time. I can't currently explain further, or at least not in a way that will make you understand, and no amount of your bullying will change that.

ETA: I got into a conversation yesterday with a couple of young (tween) pro-lifers. Thought you might be interested in what they had to say. Without any coercion, I asked them their thoughts on abortion... which led to, if abortion was illegal, what should the punishment be? Both said the women and the doctors should go to jail. The difference is that one said in all cases except saving mother's life, the other included rape victims.

[valsa]

ETA: I got into a conversation yesterday with a couple of young (tween) pro-lifers. Thought you might be interested in what they had to say. Without any coercion, I asked them their thoughts on abortion... which led to, if abortion was illegal, what should the punishment be? Both said the women and the doctors should go to jail. The difference is that one said in all cases except saving mother's life, the other included rape victims.

As children, they are ignorant enough to truly believe that fetuses are the same as babies. Too bad some adults haven't educated themselves past the intellectual level of pre-teens.

[Guest Anonymous]

I was busy IRL, but also, I have explained to the best of my ability at the current time. I can't currently explain further, or at least not in a way that will make you understand, and no amount of your bullying will change that.

ETA: I got into a conversation yesterday with a couple of young (tween) pro-lifers. Thought you might be interested in what they had to say. Without any coercion, I asked them their thoughts on abortion... which led to, if abortion was illegal, what should the punishment be? Both said the women and the doctors should go to jail. The difference is that one said in all cases except saving mother's life, the other included rape victims.

Hi, you don't know what bullying is. (Add that to a long list of things you don't understand.) People asking you questions that you don't want to answer is not bullying. People pointing out that you don't make any sense is not bullying. Your participation here is completely voluntary. Neither your job nor your education depends on you being here. You are free to leave at any time if your feelings are hurt, and never come back.

As for you trotting out a couple of twelve year olds to ... what, exactly? Support your position on abortion? They're kids. There's a reason they can't sign contracts or vote. We recognize that they are not yet equipped to reason well enough to figure that stuff out. I wouldn't ask a twelve year old to serve on a jury or help me do my taxes, that you think they have some great wisdom to offer on the subject of reproductive freedom is frankly bizarre.

[formergothardite]

The tweens used more logic than you are. Do you not see how this makes you a flaming hypocrite to say that a fetus is a baby and then not want to treat it as an actual baby? And you can't even say why.

And this isn't bullying, this is expecting you to have some logical thoughts about behind your beliefs. Last time you hadn't thought about them, this time you haven't thought about them with any sort of logic.

[alba]

ETA: I got into a conversation yesterday with a couple of young (tween) pro-lifers. Thought you might be interested in what they had to say. Without any coercion, I asked them their thoughts on abortion... which led to, if abortion was illegal, what should the punishment be? Both said the women and the doctors should go to jail. The difference is that one said in all cases except saving mother's life, the other included rape victims.

So what you're saying is that people who aren't sexually mature, whose frontal lobes (the part of the brain responsible for reasoning and decision making) aren't fully developed, have remarkable insight into reproductive function. When I was a tween I thought that sex before marriage was evil and women who had casual sex were sluts. I got better.

[emmiedahl]

Were they homeschooled? Even if they aren't, their understanding of science and logic is probably not where an adult's would be. They are just echoing what they have been told by people like you. There is a reason tweens cannot vote.

So a 9 year agrees with you and that's your new justification? My 9 year old daughter does not even know about abortion; of course she goes to school and violin lessons rather than protests and political rallies. And if you asked her how to solve our national problems, it would probably involve unicorns and free earrings at Claire's. Cuz then we'd be happy and accessorized! Oh, and her economic model would look a lot like socialism because she has been raised in a large family. Just share and don't be selfish, 'kay?

Are we really asking tweens for justication of our political beliefs? I mean, really?

[formergothardite]

It just astounds me (I guess it shouldn't) that people like ITOG are willing to vote to strip rights away from women based on a belief that isn't logical and they can't even really explain.

And IMO, the real reason is, you can't explain why you beleve a fetus is a baby, yet you don't want to treat it like a baby without either, admitting it isn't a real baby or admitting that you have some messed up beliefs. ITOG is saying that she supports the idea that people who assist in the killing of another person shouldn't get any real blame.

[formergothardite]

Wait, I thought she was saying the tweens didn't agree with her and we should be glad that she is soooooooo much nicer than them. She doesn't believe the women should get any sort of punishment for having an abortion while the tweens do think they should.

The tweens make more sense than she does because if you really think it is a baby, you should treat it like a already born baby being killed. ITOG isn't treating a fetus like a baby and really won't explain why.

[dairyfreelife]

I agree with FormerGothardite-The tweens are being far more logical than you were being. Their response was that IF abortion was illegal-mothers and doctors should be punished for having or giving them-minus mother's lives at stake and rape victims. I mean, if fetuses/foetuses are considered babies and abortion was illegal in the presented scenario you gave them-it makes sense to me with exceptions they gave-that's typical of most pro-lifers I know. I mean, if you presented me with the same scenario-my response would be similar because of what you are asking. Doing something illegal has a punishment after all, but that doesn't mean I agree with abortion being illegal-I am 100% pro-choice. I'm not sure if the tweens you asked are pro-life or not, but they don't get a say in the reproductive choices of others as they barely pubescent themselves so no one will listen to their responses on adult matters like that. At least the 12yo's you asked gave exceptions-more than sick pro-life you quoted which is written by adults-that's the sad thing.

Personally, I think you aren't answering FG's questions about why you don't want to punish women when you think abortion is murder because you have read the stories like treemom's and others and know they made a difficult decision, but felt it was the best decision, and you can't bring yourself to call them murderers. jmho anyway.

[Angri-la]

So I guess it is a rule to start at least one really long "But think of the unborn bay-beez" thread every week. It is as if coming over here to play "Convert the Heathens" is some kind of fundie sport. Do they get a merit badge for their little blogs?

This one is so dull, save our professional debaters here, to whom I tip my beaded cloche, that I am not even going to bother with a cake. Keep Abortion Legal in the US, says this mother of 1.

[kpmom]

Tweens, huh? When I was a tween I was certain Shawn Cassidy would fall in love with me if only we could meet. I don't know how much stock I'd put in what tweens have to say, much less put it on the board in defense (I guess) of your opinions.

[Austin]

Tweens, huh? When I was a tween I was certain Shawn Cassidy would fall in love with me if only we could meet. I don't know how much stock I'd put in what tweens have to say, much less put it on the board in defense (I guess) of your opinions.

For me, it was Lief Garrett.

Hihp_Jjdnsg

That we before he became a drug addict and felon, though.

When my sons were that age, they claimed to be pro-life, too. We had lots of debates about it. Kids at that age seem to think that from the moment of conception, there's a cute Gerber baby in there, and that's all they can grasp. As the boys grew older, though, they were able to understand the many nuances and complexities of this issue (thank heavens), presumably because their brains developed more.

[dairyfreelife]

Tweens, huh? When I was a tween I was certain Shawn Cassidy would fall in love with me if only we could meet. I don't know how much stock I'd put in what tweens have to say, much less put it on the board in defense (I guess) of your opinions.

True, but hey, itog just proved the tweens have better deductive reasoning skills than herself. She gave them the scenario: If abortion is illegal what should the punishment be of the mothers and doctors who commit the crime? They answered her question in the hypothetical: If it's illegal they should be punished and even gave reasons when it would be wrong to punish-something even the awful pro-life site she linked to wouldn't approve of nor other other virilent pro-lifers like Comfort. She doesn't tell us how the tweens she asked would normally respond, but regardless their opinions don't matter in political matters.

Piaget's Formal Opertional Stage 4-the last stage:

zjJdcXA1KH8

[formergothardite]

~Just going by what ITOG believes these are not my personal beliefs~

Perhaps writing it this way will help ITOG see how hypocritical her stand on abortion is.

*A fetus is a real baby, therefore;

*Abortion should be illegal because it is killing a real baby, therefore;

*Women who willingly go get abortions are assisting in a murder, therefore;

What the next logical step should be is:

*Women should be charged for being an accomplice to a murder. We should treat a fetus like a real baby.

But somehow she ends up with:

*Women should not be charged. A fetus should not be treated like a real baby.

Which when you end up with that, why the heck is she wanting to make abortion illegal?! If she doesn't think we should treat a fetus like a human who is already born, why even bother with the whole "lets make abortion illegal because a fetus is a baby."

I cannot for the life of me understand.

~This is not bullying. This is trying to understand what the hell you are saying.~

[2xx1xy1JD]

While she'll need to answer for herself, I'll throw her a bone and suggest that her logic might be similar to that of Canada's infanticide law.

From the Criminal Code of Canada:

Section 233. A female person commits infanticide when by a wilful act or omission she causes the death of her newly-born child, if at the time of the act or omission she is not fully recovered from the effects of giving birth to the child and by reason thereof or of the effect of lactation consequent on the birth of the child her mind is then disturbed.

In other words - the act itself is not condoned, but there is leniency based on characteristics of the perpetrator.

[formergothardite]

But the minds of people who are having abortions are not disturbed. Women who choose abortions are not mentally ill in any way.

[Constance Vigilance]

But the minds of people who are having abortions are not disturbed. Women who choose abortions are not mentally ill in any way.

[formergothardite]

I do believe that people who are mentally ill and commit crimes should be given treatment and showed mercy, but women who chose to have abortions are not mentally ill.

In the case of the Canadian law, do they have the women get treatment or anything like that? I would think that if someone was mentally ill enough to kill their child they would need some sort of treatment to make sure they didn't go do something else dangerous, either to theirself or someone else.

[JesusFightClub]

JFC - I just googled Pete Singer, and sort of wish that I hadn't. If idiot fundies turn people off of religion, then I'm afraid that Singer's ethics could have the opposite effect - turning people toward religion, and painting abortion as being morally equivalent to baby killing.

My view on the abortion issue comes from a very different framework (based on the Canadian case law, which follows different reasoning that Roe v. Wade). I believe that the question of whether it is moral for a woman to decide to terminate her pregnancy is entirely different from the question of whether it is moral for the state to be able to intrude control what people do with their bodies in a very significant way, that could include exposing them to the risk of bodily harm. In legal terms, I would say that the jurisdiction of the state ends where the body begins. So, society isn't saying that certain decisions are necessarily moral - it is saying that those decisions are the moral responsibility of the mother and that it has no authority to forcibly intervene, although it may provide education and support to encourage better decisions. In practical terms, this can mean that the state has no right to take a pregnant woman into custody and tie her to the bed to get treatment for substance abuse, but it can recognize that substance abuse by a pregnant woman is objectively harmful, provide public service announcements and public health programs to deal with it, and even authorize child protection workers to take custody of the newborn the moment that it is born if substance abuse during pregnancy was an issue.

[itsthatonegirl]

I really only shared what the girls said for the sake of sharing. Wasn't trying to make any specific point.

So here are my thoughts after mulling this all over. It is difficult to think of women going to prison in abortion cases, but I think that is because abortion is legal. My first hope would be that abortions would decline if they were illegal. I know that most (all?) of you here do not think that would happen. I disagree. I think if contraception was made widely available, they would almost certainly decline. I would support a woman's choice to abort if her life was in danger, so that alleviates those cases. It is very hard for me to say what I believe about rape cases. I am going to need to do some more soul searching on that one. That leaves the women who are aborting for what is more or less a method of birth control. If that were to become an illegal form of birth control, then the chance may very well be that they would be prosecuted. I suppose pro-lifers at that point would have to support that, if that is the decision that the judges and politicians made. Is that easy to think of? No, it isn't. But if the point of making abortion illegal is to defend the defenseless, than that may be a tragic side effect to deal with. I would still desire that the doctor would be the one to take the brunt of the punishment. I looked up "solicitation of murder", on a lawyer's website. It listed these three possible defenses to solicitation of murder:

Honest and reasonable mistake of fact (being involved in a conspiracy plan without being told about the facts or true nature of the enterprise).

Necessity

Duress

Perhaps these three defenses would pardon some or many women. It would be a case-by-case basis, I suppose.

It isn't easy to think of these things. It isn't easy to say them before a "room" of pro-choicers. But as you have showed me over the past few days and weeks, these are issues that I have to face if I want to think deeper about my pro-life stance.

[kpmom]

I really only shared what the girls said for the sake of sharing. Wasn't trying to make any specific point.

So here are my thoughts after mulling this all over. It is difficult to think of women going to prison in abortion cases, but I think that is because abortion is legal. My first hope would be that abortions would decline if they were illegal. I know that most (all?) of you here do not think that would happen. I disagree. I think if contraception was made widely available, they would almost certainly decline. I would support a woman's choice to abort if her life was in danger, so that alleviates those cases. It is very hard for me to say what I believe about rape cases. I am going to need to do some more soul searching on that one.

[Witsec1]

I really only shared what the girls said for the sake of sharing. Wasn't trying to make any specific point.

So here are my thoughts after mulling this all over. It is difficult to think of women going to prison in abortion cases, but I think that is because abortion is legal. My first hope would be that abortions would decline if they were illegal. I know that most (all?) of you here do not think that would happen. I disagree. I think if contraception was made widely available, they would almost certainly decline. I would support a woman's choice to abort if her life was in danger, so that alleviates those cases. It is very hard for me to say what I believe about rape cases. I am going to need to do some more soul searching on that one. That leaves the women who are aborting for what is more or less a method of birth control. If that were to become an illegal form of birth control, then the chance may very well be that they would be prosecuted. I suppose pro-lifers at that point would have to support that, if that is the decision that the judges and politicians made. Is that easy to think of? No, it isn't. But if the point of making abortion illegal is to defend the defenseless, than that may be a tragic side effect to deal with. I would still desire that the doctor would be the one to take the brunt of the punishment. I looked up "solicitation of murder", on a lawyer's website. It listed these three possible defenses to solicitation of murder:

Honest and reasonable mistake of fact (being involved in a conspiracy plan without being told about the facts or true nature of the enterprise).

Necessity

Duress

Perhaps these three defenses would pardon some or many women. It would be a case-by-case basis, I suppose.

It isn't easy to think of these things. It isn't easy to say them before a "room" of pro-choicers. But as you have showed me over the past few days and weeks, these are issues that I have to face if I want to think deeper about my pro-life stance.

[itsthatonegirl]

Because the part of me that desires to be consistently, across the board pro-life, wants to say that it wouldn't matter if it were a rape case... the fault does not lie with the baby, and it won't make the fact of the rape go away nor avenge it. But another part of me cries out in sympathy with the rape victim and thinks, she's been through enough.

If we are talking about a minor rape victim, the same tugging of emotions occurs, but even harder in both directions. I am more apt to say legalize abortion for these cases, but I also struggle with wondering if a young girl would regret this decision upon adulthood.