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More stupidity from the Bayly Brothers


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I don't normally read the Bayly Brothers' blog, since I find it even more repugnant than most fundie writing. Nonetheless, I found a quote by Tim Bayly at FSTDT and simply cannot resist snarking on it:

Veganism is a Satanic conspiracy against God's Creation Order. God created adam alone--both Adam and Eve--in His Own Image. He did not create animals in His Image. Thus those whose morality has descended to Veganism and the claim of personhood and legal standing for animals are rebels against Almighty God. They are false prophets calling souls to Hell.

It's histrionic nonsense, of course, like a lot of what I've seen from the Baylys - but there's another dimension to this statement which also appears in other fundie writing about women, children, and even the poor: An over-weening will to power - an entitlement complex - such that these men use the “Created Order†as an excuse to dominate and assume absolute ownership over everyone and everything within their orbit.

Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that the Created Order is a mandate from God, and the text about it has not been altered by human beings; that the Garden of Eden existed exactly as depicted in Genesis.

Here, then, is the cornerstone of Dominionist theology - the "Genesis Mandate" from which they draw all their supposed authority:

And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.†– Genesis 1:26

Three verses later, God brackets what its human creations can do even given their position of “dominionâ€: And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food." – Genesis 1:29

First, there is no mention of eating animals.

And secondly, despite God's having given “every tree†with fruit as food, there was one exception – one tree from which people were forbidden to eat.

Even with their position of dominion, people did not own the world. Their eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil precipitated The Fall, after which the human relationship with other animals changed:

First, God clothed the man and the woman in animal skins after having expelled them from the Garden.

And then...

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. – Genesis 9:3

God only now gave them everything for food, and also demanded for the first time that people perform animal sacrifice as expiation for human sin.

Even then, however, there were rules for how people should interact with animals:

I. It is forbidden to eat animals alive: “But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.†– Genesis 9:4

II. Animals – and even those belonging to an enemy – deserve help when overburdened: “If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it with him.†– Exodus 23:5

III. Animals deserve fair payment for their work (as clarified in 1 Timothy 5:18): “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain.†– Deuteronomy 25:4

IV. People should show concern for the lives of their animals: “Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.†– Proverbs 12:10


Beyond these basic rules for human-animal interaction, there is an equality granted by death: “For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.†– Ecclesiastes 3:19


In an ideal world - one which mirrors pre-fall conditions - there is no killing on God's Holy Mountain: “They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.†– Isaiah 11:9


“'The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,' says the LORD.†– Isaiah 65:25


Paul says he would abstain from meat if such would help to keep other believers from stumbling: “Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.†– 1 Corinthians 8:13

And finally, it generally doesn't matter what a person eats or doesn't eat, because it's not what goes into his mouth that makes him unclean, but what comes out of his mouth: “it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.†– Matthew 15:11 (and Mark 7:15 says something similar.)

My point, then, is threefold:

1) There are, and always have been, limitations on human dominion.

2) The ideal, both in Eden and on God's holy mountain, is that people and animals don't kill one another.

3) A person is not made clean or unclean by either eating meat or abstaining from meat and animal by-products.

Animals do have some legal standing in the Bible, as I've demonstrated above, and though they're never granted personhood, they are described as having shared the 'same breath' as human beings.

Dominionists like the Bayly Brothers often overstep their authority both in relation to animals and to other human beings. They burden people - and especially women - with extrabiblical expectations while pleading their own allegedly "God-given" authority as a reason to demand more of those whom they consider their inferiors.

They believe they are a law unto themselves, such that they can dictate what others should eat to avoid being tarred as 'Satanic conspirators.' They do this rather than focusing on the important standards for human behavior: "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" -- Micah 6:8

There is no mercy, kindness, or humility in most of what the Bayly Brothers write. I would suggest they shut up until they get that standard right before prattling on like idiots about the evils of veganism (and women working and all the other crap they bitch about).

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Are they really saying vegans are making people go to hell? The 19 year old fundie, Josiah, from the other thread is a huge fan of theirs. I guess you learn from example and stuff like this would explain why his beliefs weren't in line with the Bible at all and lacking all compassion . From what I can remember, wasn't it that people didn't eat meat till after the flood? So before then, people were vegans/vegetarians. God must not have a huge issue with vegans. I bet he has a bigger issue with factory farmed meat in which animals are treated with cruelty.

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Wow, I didn't realize that I had that much power just by being a vegetarian. Sending souls to hell and all. Well maybe not, I am not a vegan. Do they realize that not all people who abstain from meat do it solely for the animals? There are health reasons, environmental reasons (which would probably be bad anyway). The first clip was mind blowing. Didn't realize that this was such a big Christian issue :roll: Guess I am doing it wrong.

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These fundys are turning heaven into a pretty exclusive place, but I guess its all about reading the fine print. This is the first I've heard about vegetarians being condemned to hell.

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LOL! :lol: You seriously just have to laugh for the sheer scariness of the fact they genuinely believe this shit they are spurting!!!

I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but I appreaciate the fact that when I do eat meat, its a LIVING thing that had feelings and had no choice in giving its life to be food.

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