Pioneer Woman is anti-dating?

[quinoa]

uppercasewoman.com/wastedbirthcontrol/2011/06/guest-post-by-ree-drummond-aka-the-pioneer-woman.html

She has a pretty big internet following. Is courtship, etc. going to become a new "hip" thing?

[MamaJunebug]

Only if the "hip"sters can figure out how to remain abstinent while their dads dither about how to play Yenta, the matchmaker.

I don't like PW's site. Too busy. I quickly grew tired of her extreme detail in matters of her privileged life. But I am intrigued as to whether she starts shilling courtship -- so please, folks, keep us informed!!! :)

[debrand]

But aside from being deeply affected by articles I can no longer cite and the sweeping (and unfair) generalization that teenage boys only want one thing, my stance on dating is mostly rooted in my simply wanting my daughters to develop--socially, intellectually, academically, spiritually--without the big, fat distraction of boys, dating, and relationships

I have sympathy with her wanting her daughters to develop fully before they date but I was a teen that wasn't allowed to date. My mom didn't have religious objections, she just felt that being younger then 18 was too young. She was also obsessed with me not having sex.

The problem was that I developed a high libido. Even though I wasn't allowed access to boys, I thought about them often. I was in and out of love with nearly every boy in my class. Because I was a plain, bookish, shy child, I was ignored by boys and so I got my heart broke even thought I wasn't in a relationship.

Sometimes I think that if my mom hadn't put so much emphasis on me not having sex, I might not have been so obsessed with it.

As soon as I turned 18, I had sex with my first boyfriend.

[deelaem]

I can't stand Ree Drummond. She's just so incredibly shallow. And she's about as much a "Pioneer Woman" as I am a submissive wife.

[MamaJunebug]

I can't stand Ree Drummond. She's just so incredibly shallow. And she's about as much a "Pioneer Woman" as I am a submissive wife.

Nicely put!

[treemom]

Another vote for not being able to stand PW. Although I do really like the marlboro man sandwiches..but again..she didn't invent the steak sandwich made with lots of butter.

[quinoa]

Very true. I mostly found it interesting because she tends to try to tread the line between conservative Christian homeschooler and regular mainstream mommy blogger. Clearly, she's not either, but that's a different conversation.

I've sort of been under the impression that even for most conservative Christians, homeschoolers or not, that courtship is considered pretty extreme. It will be fascinating if she gets involved with anything of the sort.

[acheronbeach]

I thought it would be pro-courtship, but she just doesn't want them dating as teens because she wants them to focus on their hobbies and academics.

It doesn't really seem that counter cultural, to me at least. I had a lot of friends who didn't date in high school. I didn't.

That said, I think the principle is equally applicable to her sons, and I'm not sure if she's ignored them because they're too young to worry about, or because she has double standards for her boys vs. her girls. She's obviously worded it vaguely so not to piss anyone off...

[Grace]

I think her site is way too busy too. I just read it in my Google reader. I skip over half the stuff but I use her recipes fairly often. And I like when she does the photo contests because I just like to see other people's pictures :)

[keeperrox]

I don't mind the Pioneer Woman, because I take her for what she is; a wealthy, SAHM, with help to raise her family and run her household. I have no illusions as to what or who she is.

That said, I wasn't allowed to "date" until I was 16. This was the rule when I was in 7th and 8th grade and first started showing interest in spending alone time with boys. However, I had a 12th grade boyfriend when I was in 9th grade. I went to his house, we went to the movies and out to dinner, and I frequently traveled to see him play baseball. What happened to that rule, mom and dad? It didn't last much more than 6 months, because he wanted to do more sexually than I did, but when I balked at more than kissing and touching, he respected that and didn't push it. It became painfully obvious, though, that we were at two very places and broke up. That experience was important. He was a good guy, and I learned how to be assertive about a very crucial thing.

The thing that drives me nuts, whether it's Ree or the fundies we discuss, is that they don't trust their kids AT.ALL. I was allowed to have that experience because my parents trusted that they taught me the skills to make the right decisions when I got into situations that made me uncomfortable or that I knew weren't right. My strong self-worth allowed me to do that. Why do these parents think so little of their children?

I have a feeling that Ree will go back on her "no dating" rule and she never even mentioned courting. From what I've read about MM, I highly doubt he would put up with that, in the first place. Their location and lifestyle will work to her advantage, though.

[lilah]

I'm a bit of a PW apologist but here goes. I think the whole post was kind of a tongue and cheek comment about hard and scary it can be to be the parent of teen girls and figure out how much freedom to give them. She doesn't want her teen daughters' lives to revolve around dating and boys but I don't think she is pro courtship. She said nothing about how her daughers need to remain virgins until marriage or that she should be picking out her daughter's husbands for them or anything of that nature She also admitted her stance will probably chance. She wanted to put her foot down on cell phones and facebook but ended up changing her mind. She's pretty scared about the notion of them dating but she's also aware that she will have to adjust and deal with that reality as it come.

Their location and lifestyle will work to her advantage, though.

I don't know, some of those ranch hands are mighty cute. I wonder if they are relatives? But yeah as long as her kids are living on an isolated ranch and being home schooled there aren't an abundance of teen guys her daughter's age running around.

[Soldier of the One]

Does PW have fundie or fundie-lite leanings? I always gathered that she was moderately Christian. And that she homeschooled for pragmatic reasons.

And I do find it interesting - in her defense - that she posted the article on an avowedly liberal, feminist blog. If she had posted it on LAF, well, that would have been a different matter...

Also, in her defense, she cites an anonymous secular, liberal article, not a Christian one. And her reasons for discouraging dating are more humanist/feminist ('personal development of daughters, independence, self-worth') that Christian ('maintaining virginal purity'). As far as I can tell, at least.

Her stance vaguely reminds me of Jean Killbourne, who co-authored a book called 'So Sexy So Soon', about protectng your kids from excessive sexual influence. Also from a liberal, humanist, feminist perspective.

I might be completely off-base here, but that's the vibe I picked up from PW :)

[lovefromgirl]

uppercasewoman.com/wastedbirthcontrol/2011/06/guest-post-by-ree-drummond-aka-the-pioneer-woman.html

She has a pretty big internet following. Is courtship, etc. going to become a new "hip" thing?

a) Note the url; that's actually Cecily's blog, and I'm familiar with Cecily, as in I was reading that blog when she lost her sons. She wouldn't let any fundie bullshit happen in her space.

b) Having actually read the piece--Pioneer Woman is bemoaning the fact that her daughters are growing up, and that girls grow up very fast nowadays. Frankly, I'd be reluctant to trust a tween with a phone and a Facebook account, and I really can't blame PW for wanting her kids to focus on developing independently of their social roles as young consumers and sex objects. Expectations are different for girls and boys no matter where you stand on the political spectrum. Girls still fall victim to the Madonna/Whore complex--except these days, it's Prude/Slut. And it's vicious. I never saw the same nastiness happen to the boys around me, but you know what separated slut!me from the good girls? A miniskirt and a distaste for organized religion.

I was a virgin until I was 21. I am in the middle of my first serious long-term relationship, and I expect it to last a very long time. Some slut I turned out to be.

So you know what? If Ree Drummond wants to guard her girls against that kind of crap, good on her.

[Soldier of the One]

lovefromgirl, -- this.

I don't think I'd allow my hypothetical children a cellphone and facebook account at age 12 either.

And kids do tend to grow up rather fast these days... and by 'grow up', I mean being objectified and sexualized.

[bananacat]

I think that dating IS a part of social development. It's not a "distraction". Most teen girls manage to grow academically, socially, and spiritually even while dating. It's such weird thinking to assume that dating would consume the girl's life, rather than just being a part of it. I also think that the "dating" that preteens do is sort of like practice for the real thing. It's really hard to throw someone into a relationship at 18 if they've never even had any practice. Most of my friends had boyfriends or girlfriends in middle school, which basically amounted to talking on the phone and meeting each other at dances. Sometimes I would go out to a restaurant with my boyfriend, but of course a parent had to drive us. I thought about kissing him but it never happened. It was basically a way to practice the social niceties without any possibility of worrying about sex or even kissing for the most part. It would have been so weird to get into a real adult relationship without ever having that practice beforehand.

I also completely disagree that girls are growing up faster these days. Adults claim that for every single generation, but it's just not true. There have been plenty of times throughout the past where a 12 year-old girl could be considered marriage material, and even just a few decades ago, girls were expected to grow up and get married soon out of high school.

[Olivia]

I also completely disagree that girls are growing up faster these days. Adults claim that for every single generation, but it's just not true. There have been plenty of times throughout the past where a 12 year-old girl could be considered marriage material, and even just a few decades ago, girls were expected to grow up and get married soon out of high school.

I think there are a lot of different definitions to "growing up", though. My grandmother was married at 18 (which I think was tragically young, but considered appropriate in her day and age) and began her first full-time job when she was only sixteen, after graduating high school early. That's definitely one type of "growing up". But she wasn't experimenting sexually when she was fourteen; she didn't have sex until she was... surprise surprise... eighteen.

I don't know, I don't have a problem with girls - or boys - doing anything they're actually ready for and desire. I do get nervous about pressure to have a boyfriend/girlfriend or to have sex or be considered a weirdo. I know as a perfectly happy twelve-year-old, I was being teased about not having a boyfriend and had another girl said she felt "sorry" for me, and it just wasn't something I was ready for or interested in. Of course, by thirteen I was completely boy-crazy....

And personally, I had more issues with boys pressuring me to act cute and stupid than I did with boys pressuring me for sex, so I feel there's a lot more to worry about with the boy-girl dynamic in the teen years than dating. Dating seems like the least of the worries.

[Witsec6]

I think that dating IS a part of social development. It's not a "distraction". Most teen girls manage to grow academically, socially, and spiritually even while dating. It's such weird thinking to assume that dating would consume the girl's life, rather than just being a part of it. I also think that the "dating" that preteens do is sort of like practice for the real thing. It's really hard to throw someone into a relationship at 18 if they've never even had any practice. Most of my friends had boyfriends or girlfriends in middle school, which basically amounted to talking on the phone and meeting each other at dances. Sometimes I would go out to a restaurant with my boyfriend, but of course a parent had to drive us. I thought about kissing him but it never happened. It was basically a way to practice the social niceties without any possibility of worrying about sex or even kissing for the most part. It would have been so weird to get into a real adult relationship without ever having that practice beforehand.

Agreed. I think a parents' unhealthy attitudes towards sex, to the point of cutting off mixed-gender contact, can have a lot more impact on social development than just DATING someone. Parents can set boundaries around dating without things getting out of control. My parents for example, allowed me to date as long as the boy came over to our house beforehand. I was also allowed to go over to boys' houses as long as my parents knew where I was and who I was with. This went for girlfriends (I'm sure they assumed girlfriends to mean friends who were girls, although I am bi), too. All of this *gasp* DATING as a young woman, and I didn't have a full sexual relationship until I was 22.

[treemom]

lovefromgirl, -- this.

I don't think I'd allow my hypothetical children a cellphone and facebook account at age 12 either.

And kids do tend to grow up rather fast these days... and by 'grow up', I mean being objectified and sexualized.

It is weird, because my son has both. I sometimes am a little surprised by who thinks these are such tools of evileness.

Also, no one ever talks about boys being objectified.

[tressea]

I think there is a very sharp difference between:

(a) placing strong restrictions on your daughters and/or sons romantic life because you believe that they are not emotionally mature enough to handle the decisions and potential fallout inherent in dating, believe that unsupervised dating is risky, or believe that dating will be a distraction from their education or healthy development. I consider myself a left-wing feminist and intend, for instance, to have very open discussions about sex and relationships with my children and DON'T believe that they should wait until marriage to have sex, but I DO think that serious dating in high school is a bad idea fraught with any number of risks and thus intend to closely monitor all of my children's romantic lives before they go off to college. This, in my mind, however, is different than

(b) not permitting your daughters to have ANY interactions with the opposite sex because you believe that they are in possession of "purity" and can thus be "ruined" by "giving away pieces of their heart" or, worse, "dirtied" by physical involvement with a member of the opposite sex. (Same-sex issues seem to be completely beyond contemplation in these circles).

The first strikes me as responsible (if perhaps strict) parenting. The second strikes me as fundamentalist-driven oppression. Pioneer Woman strikes me as someone in the first camp. You may think she's overly strict, but I don't think that that means she's firmly aboard the courtship train or about to post some long discussion about the importance of purity.

[Austin]

It is weird, because my son has both. I sometimes am a little surprised by who thinks these are such tools of evileness.

Also, no one ever talks about boys being objectified.

Our boys had to be 13 to get a cell phone or have MySpace (Facebook was not big then). It was my rule and completely arbitrary on my part. They've called me on it since and I've owned it. But I tell them that some of those things I did just because I was the mom (tongue planted firmly in cheek).

[FloraDoraDolly]

I thought it would be pro-courtship, but she just doesn't want them dating as teens because she wants them to focus on their hobbies and academics.

I've seen this a lot among my Asian-American friends whose parents are the 1st generation in this country or who are simply old-fashioned. But these families do not practice courtship; they simply do not want their children of either sex dating until they have finished high school. For some, the senior prom is the first date they're allowed to have.

A friend of mine who is Korean-American told me that once she turned 18, she was free to date and eventually marry whomever she chose without any parental interference. Her brother, OTOH, had to marry a Korean woman or else.

[MojoMama7]

I know I read somewhere that Pioneer Woman and Marlboro Man basically had an arranged marriage, was it here?

I don't know how that fits in with her High Heels to Tractor Wheels book and how much of it must be fabricated, but if she basically was told who to marry by her folks, she might not think that dating is that important in finding a life mate. It worked out for her---marrying a reasonably cute guy with untold millions of family money.

But regardless, her daughters are fug, no-one's going to be beating down their door to get to them.

[keeperrox]

I know I read somewhere that Pioneer Woman and Marlboro Man basically had an arranged marriage, was it here?

Yeah... I'd like to see some proof of that.

[ADoyle90815]

I've never heard about the arranged marriage, but PW did grow up in the area, so she probably knew who MM's family was, and that they had a ton of money.

[Gizmola]

I've never been able to get into PW - there's just a little too much "I'm just a farmer's wife" vibe when she really isn't like any of the many, many real farmer's wives I grew up around in Oklahoma. Not that there's anything wrong with being a wealthy rancher, just be a little less "aw shucks" about your very privileged life.

My parents didn't let me date, either. I was 18 before I dated and yep, I jumped right into bed with him, slut that I am. My parents weren't fundie; they just thought it was more important for me to grow up and develop my own mind, my own interests and get some life experience before dating.