Is abortion Biblical?

[emmiedahl]

I was reading this and it was interesting. http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

Interesting quote:

What has been so clearly demonstrated by the passage in Exodus - the fact that God does not consider a fetus a human person - can also be seen in a variety of other Bible verses. In Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder. Period.

Maybe a fundie would like to come and tell me how wrong the Bible is.

[dawbs]

Isn't there also some discussion in the OT law, an indication that someone who causes a miscarriage is punished differently depending on how pregnant the woman is?

*off to look*

[Austin]

I've had this bookmarked for awhile and I think it makes some interesting points:

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

[Austin]

Isn't there also some discussion in the OT law, an indication that someone who causes a miscarriage is punished differently depending on how pregnant the woman is?

*off to look*

Is it this?

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Exodus 21:22-25

Clearly, the penalty was not life for a life because a miscarried child was not considered a "life", according to these verses.

[pomology]

Isn't there also some discussion in the OT law, an indication that someone who causes a miscarriage is punished differently depending on how pregnant the woman is?

*off to look*

I'm pretty sure in the "eye for an eye" part a death is paid for in death, but causing a woman to miscarriage is only paid for by a fine, not by death, implying that the fetus is not equivalent to a life. But at school I don't have a Bible to look it up in, so I can't actually confirm whether my memory is correct.

ETA: Austin just posted what I was talking about.

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

The Bible isn't inconsistent. Adam wasn't born of a mother and dead soliders coming back to life is not the same thing. Obviously if you aren't breathing, you aren't alive. But if one must breathe air to be alive, I suppose all the fish in the sea are dead. A baby does receive oxygen in the womb. Obviously you can't have a census and count unborn babies. Were they supposed to guess if a woman was having a single or multiple birth? God didn't burn the pregnant woman so how is that relevant? In Genesis 38, Judah mistakes Tamar as a prostitute, and orders her to be burned to death, despite the fact she is three months pregnant. The execution order was later lifted because Judah learned Tamar's true identity. Other ancient cultures didn't believe a person counted until 6 months or the first birthday, so the ancient Hebrews giving monetary value to a one month old was quite liberal. Not giving a one month old monetary value is not the same as denying the child's is alive though.

Here are some other Bible verses. Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.

Psalm 139:13: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Galatians 1:15: But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased. Genesis 25:21-22 talks about Esau and Jacob having personalities in the womb and struggling with one another before birth as they did throughout their lives. Luke 1:15: He [John the Baptist] will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.

If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, none of this is relevant obviously; however, the Bible is clear that an unborn baby has value and life.

[Guest Anonymous]

The Bible isn't inconsistent.

Bwahahahaha. Ahem. I'm a Christian and I think that's ridiculous. Moving on.

If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, none of this is relevant obviously; however, the Bible is clear that an unborn baby has value and life.

Monetary value - not the eye for an eye value afforded to an actual person. Hence I conclude that a fetus isn't a person.**

**(Considered to be one Biblically.)

[pomology]

The Bible isn't inconsistent. Adam wasn't born of a mother and dead soliders coming back to life is not the same thing. Obviously if you aren't breathing, you aren't alive. But if one must breathe air to be alive, I suppose all the fish in the sea are dead. A baby does receive oxygen in the womb. Obviously you can't have a census and count unborn babies. Were they supposed to guess if a woman was having a single or multiple birth? God didn't burn the pregnant woman so how is that relevant? In Genesis 38, Judah mistakes Tamar as a prostitute, and orders her to be burned to death, despite the fact she is three months pregnant. The execution order was later lifted because Judah learned Tamar's true identity. Other ancient cultures didn't believe a person counted until 6 months or the first birthday, so the ancient Hebrews giving monetary value to a one month old was quite liberal. Not giving a one month old monetary value is not the same as denying the child's is alive though.

Here are some other Bible verses. Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.

Psalm 139:13: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Galatians 1:15: But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased. Genesis 25:21-22 talks about Esau and Jacob having personalities in the womb and struggling with one another before birth as they did throughout their lives. Luke 1:15: He [John the Baptist] will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.

If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, none of this is relevant obviously; however, the Bible is clear that an unborn baby has value and life.

Care to explain the Exodus verses that Austin posted above that clearly do not equate a fetus with a born human life? Nobody is arguing that fetuses don't have personalities in the womb. I've never been pregnant or even been (emotionally) close to anybody who has been pregnant while they have been pregnant and even I know that. That doesn't mean the Bible thinks that abortion is murder.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

Wow. That's really interesting, EmmieDahl, definately somthing for bible believers to ponder. Thanks for posting it.

Just from my generic Lutheran upbringing and my limited knowledge of the bible, it is clear that it is full of inconsistancies. I think that's one reason why the "bible believers" who take the bible literally pick and choose what they read/follow/believe/cram down everyone's throat. I'm sure they are aware that xx verse contradicts xx verse, but choose to ignore it in favor of the verse that fits their particular beliefs.

[Austin]

The Bible isn't inconsistent. Adam wasn't born of a mother and dead soliders coming back to life is not the same thing. Obviously if you aren't breathing, you aren't alive. But if one must breathe air to be alive, I suppose all the fish in the sea are dead. A baby does receive oxygen in the womb. Obviously you can't have a census and count unborn babies. Were they supposed to guess if a woman was having a single or multiple birth? God didn't burn the pregnant woman so how is that relevant? In Genesis 38, Judah mistakes Tamar as a prostitute, and orders her to be burned to death, despite the fact she is three months pregnant. The execution order was later lifted because Judah learned Tamar's true identity. Other ancient cultures didn't believe a person counted until 6 months or the first birthday, so the ancient Hebrews giving monetary value to a one month old was quite liberal. Not giving a one month old monetary value is not the same as denying the child's is alive though.

Here are some other Bible verses. Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.

Psalm 139:13: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Galatians 1:15: But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased. Genesis 25:21-22 talks about Esau and Jacob having personalities in the womb and struggling with one another before birth as they did throughout their lives. Luke 1:15: He [John the Baptist] will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.

If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, none of this is relevant obviously; however, the Bible is clear that an unborn baby has value and life.

The article I posted a link to above refutes just about every one of these verses. So even if people do believe the Bible, there is more than one way of interpreting these verses. The truth is the Bible does not specifically mention abortion at all, even though women were certainly ending their pregnancies even in the Bronze Age, a fact I'm sure God was aware of, being omniscient and all.

[emmiedahl]

however, the Bible is clear that an unborn baby has value and life.

But the bible is not clear. God specifies that an unborn child is a possession, not a person. The penalties for harming an unborn child are less than those for theft, and certainly not the death penalty seen for murder. Are you saying God is wrong?

Just because God formed and knew something does not mean that it is valued as a human life. In fact, God formed and knows intestinal parasites. Are you saying that makes them a human life?

How about this from Ecclesiastes 6: Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.

God is saying that this person should never have been born. Does that sound like he clearly values every fetus?

Or this from Ecclesiastes 4: I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun.

God says it is better to be aborted than to live a miserable life. No, your verse does not refute this.

Do your morals supercede God's?

[doggie]

don't forget bashing your enemy's babies heads into rocks.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

This isn't necessarily biblical, but up until very recently (100 years give or take a few) children that were born handicapped, disfigured, mentally retarded, autistic, ect (pick a disorder/disease) were often left to die or thrown out like the trash. Historicaly these were very religious peoples, both catholic and prodestant. As horrific as I find this practice with living babies, it does illustrate that "the culture of life" wasn't always so valued by some very pious and religious people.

....apologizing for the spelling riffles, its late and I took a xanex......

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

The morality of abortion isn't something that we are going to solve on FJ. I'm not advocating for Roe v. Wade to be appealed, nor I'm I trying to impose my beliefs on others. Read into the Bible what you wish, but I do not believe that the Bible or God approves of abortion. My heart breaks for every woman who has ever had to go through an abortion. I've had first trimester miscarriages that happened years ago that still cause me grief.

[emmiedahl]

So you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible unless the literal interpretation goes against your personal beliefs?

[silvia]

"And, more to the point, we cannot simply accept what some Christian leaders proclaim as being God's word on a given subject without carefully reading the full text of the book and taking into consideration the entire context."

Amen to this!

[Guest Anonymous]

My heart breaks for every woman who has ever had to go through an abortion. I've had first trimester miscarriages that happened years ago that still cause me grief.

I'm sorry for your losses.

Some women who have had abortions undoubtedly have felt sad or conflicted about them, but many others primarily feel a profound sense of relief. I wouldn't go breaking my heart over women who made an informed decision that was best for them. Of course as long as you don't think that your beliefs should be legislated I've got no problem with you on this particular issue. If you want to feel sad for people who aren't sad for themselves knock yourself out.

[dawbs]

Thanks Austin (and the rest) that's what I was looking for last week, but the baby decided I wasn't allowed to keep reading.

[Austin]

The morality of abortion isn't something that we are going to solve on FJ. I'm not advocating for Roe v. Wade to be appealed, nor I'm I trying to impose my beliefs on others. Read into the Bible what you wish, but I do not believe that the Bible or God approves of abortion. My heart breaks for every woman who has ever had to go through an abortion. I've had first trimester miscarriages that happened years ago that still cause me grief.

No, we don't presume to "solve" issues here at FJ. We discuss them and we state our opinions and why we have them. "Because the Bible tells me so", even when you cannot demonstrate that the Bible definitively says something one way or another (not a slam - the Bible has many different interpretatios, even among protestant Christians - look how denominations many there are), probably will not get you very far here.

And I would think twice about condescending to have your heart "broken" for women who choose abortion. Many women are sad, many are relieved, and many have complex feelings that are not for others to presume to know anything about. I have never had an abortion personally (unless you count the hundreds of babies I've apparently murdered while being on oral contraceptives :roll: ), and I do not "like" abortion (most pro-choicers do not just luv-luv-luv abortion), but I trust the women who make those decisons that they are the best ones to make them. I have had the loss of pregnancy and given birth to three healthy children, but these situations vis-a-vis abortion are a little bit like comparing apples and oranges.

I also don't need the Bible to say what I want b/c I don't happen to believe that the Bible is inerrant, or the inspired "word of God" (b/c that would make God pretty bad). I do believe it contains essential truths, but I don't believe it has any mystical powers. Nearly everything said in one part will be presented differently, if not downright contradicted, in another part. I've heard all there is to hear about how "when viewed as a whole, the Bible confirms itself", blah, blah. If people want to believe that, they are certainly free to do so, but I don't any more. So I'm just participating in this topic in the sense that I have read some interesting interpretations, not because I need to convince myself or anyone else of some Biblical "truth".

You can interpret verses in the way that fits best with your perceived constructs, and others are free to use valid interpretation skills to interpet verses according to what they know about language and what seems likely to them, given the context and other cues.

[treemom]

The morality of abortion isn't something that we are going to solve on FJ. I'm not advocating for Roe v. Wade to be appealed, nor I'm I trying to impose my beliefs on others. Read into the Bible what you wish, but I do not believe that the Bible or God approves of abortion. My heart breaks for every woman who has ever had to go through an abortion. I've had first trimester miscarriages that happened years ago that still cause me grief.

Is there a question about the morality? There isn't to me.

[BravaAmica]

The morality of abortion isn't something that we are going to solve on FJ. I'm not advocating for Roe v. Wade to be appealed, nor I'm I trying to impose my beliefs on others. Read into the Bible what you wish, but I do not believe that the Bible or God approves of abortion. My heart breaks for every woman who has ever had to go through an abortion. I've had first trimester miscarriages that happened years ago that still cause me grief.

I had an abortion, I do not grieve the baby and I do not regret having an abortion. It was absolutely the best decision of an awful situation. I was raped, you see. And at the time I did not care what the bible or god had to say on the matter. It was not a moral decision. It was a decision to save my mental health and well being. I know that losing a wanted baby is different than choosing to terminate a pregnancy forced upon someone via rape.

[slickcat79]

don't forget bashing your enemy's babies heads into rocks.

Yeah, that. Or Hosea 13:

I will have no compassion,

15 even though he thrives among his brothers.

An east wind from the LORD will come,

blowing in from the desert;

his spring will fail

and his well dry up.

His storehouse will be plundered

of all its treasures.

16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,

because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword;

their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

their pregnant women ripped open.

So, apparently god cares less about unborn babies if their parents are rebellious.

And what about miscarriage, aka spontaneous abortion? It's estimated that at least 25-30% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, and there's rarely a known cause. Does that make god responsible for miscarriages? If he has knit a baby in its mother's womb, and he knows that baby and has a plan for him/her, why would that plan be to die before they actually live? If you believe the bible as divinely-inspired literal truth, then surely god is the biggest abortion provider ever known.

[Deleted03]

I was reading this and it was interesting. http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

Interesting quote:

Maybe a fundie would like to come and tell me how wrong the Bible is.

Thanks I sent that to my christian roomate, she's not for outlawing abortion but repeatedly told me it was still punishing the baby and all, maybe it can assuage her mind...

[treemom]

I had an abortion, I do not grieve the baby and I do not regret having an abortion. It was absolutely the best decision of an awful situation. I was raped, you see. And at the time I did not care what the bible or god had to say on the matter. It was not a moral decision. It was a decision to save my mental health and well being. I know that losing a wanted baby is different than choosing to terminate a pregnancy forced upon someone via rape.

I do grieve, but I don't regret. I also don't care what the Bible or God had to say on the matter. If God was so against abortion, he might have wanted to design every single fertilized egg to never had a problem. And people to not rape.

And LauraElle, I am sorry. Not sorry you had an abortion, sorry that it was even a matter you had to deal with. And sorry that asshats think that abortions are so 'WRONG!'

[FlorenceHamilton]

The Bible isn't inconsistent. Adam wasn't born of a mother and dead soliders coming back to life is not the same thing. Obviously if you aren't breathing, you aren't alive. But if one must breathe air to be alive, I suppose all the fish in the sea are dead. A baby does receive oxygen in the womb. Obviously you can't have a census and count unborn babies. Were they supposed to guess if a woman was having a single or multiple birth? God didn't burn the pregnant woman so how is that relevant? In Genesis 38, Judah mistakes Tamar as a prostitute, and orders her to be burned to death, despite the fact she is three months pregnant. The execution order was later lifted because Judah learned Tamar's true identity. Other ancient cultures didn't believe a person counted until 6 months or the first birthday, so the ancient Hebrews giving monetary value to a one month old was quite liberal. Not giving a one month old monetary value is not the same as denying the child's is alive though.

Here are some other Bible verses. Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.

Psalm 139:13: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Galatians 1:15: But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased. Genesis 25:21-22 talks about Esau and Jacob having personalities in the womb and struggling with one another before birth as they did throughout their lives. Luke 1:15: He [John the Baptist] will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.

If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, none of this is relevant obviously; however, the Bible is clear that an unborn baby has value and life.

Actually, fish do breathe air.

(edited for spelling)