Community College Versus College Plus

[Eponine]

Actually I sort of doubt the Duggars would be within Pell range, were one of their kids to fill out a FAFSA right now. It seems like they make enough income and receive enough gift money to put them out of it, even considering that their household supports 20 people. Usually CCs and state schools don't offer scholarships as such (sometimes grants), because tuition is so low, and especially to students with as poor qualifications as the Duggars. However I don't doubt they could receive a shit ton in private scholarships if they looked for it.

Their case is really unusual with fundies though, and I'm positive that the vast majority of IFB/QF types would be eligible for close to the maximum in Pell.

[emmiedahl]

In general, if you can afford to pay $4500 per year for a College Plus mentor (you still have to buy your own books, pay for the tests, etc) then you can definitely afford to pay for a much better education at a community college.

According to the rumors, the girls turned down free college from Oprah. No sympathy here.

Plus they are making bazillions off the show.

[emmiedahl]

Okay, a cost breakdown.

Community college

Tuition $3000-4000 per year

Books $500 per year

Transportation, etc $500 per year

Transferrable credit? Yes

Lab classes? Yes

Tutoring? Free

Total $4000-5000 per year

College Plus

"Tuition" $4500-5000 per year

Books $500 per year

CLEP test fees $896 ($112 per test x 4 class/semester x 2 semesters per year)

Transportation, etc $0

Transferrable credit? Maybe.

Lab classes? No

Tutoring? Must pay extra

Total $5896-6396 per year

Even if you don't qualify for a grant (and many fundies do), cc is cheaper.

[Katiebug]

The institutions that award the College Plus degrees are regionally accredited, though. Thomas Edison State College is the most common, from what I've read online, and they are completely legitimate. A friend of mine from college spent 8 years in the Navy nuclear program as a submariner and he got his A.S. from TESC while on active duty. He has a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering and a master's as well and most of the credits transferred into his B.S.E. program at our flagship state university (one of the top 25 in the country, now). That sort of situation is what the "Big Three" credit aggregator colleges were meant for; veterans or active duty military who could legitimately be issued credits as a result of their training and experience, or nontraditional students who had taken classes at several institutions and needed to combine them into a degree program. There is no difference in terms of transfer to a 4 year institution, or general acceptability in the workforce, for someone with an associate's degree from TESC or Charter Oak State College or Excelsior College versus someone who graduated from the community college 10 minutes from my home.

College Minus itself would be considered an unaccredited tutoring and advising program. The way they work is by giving study guides for CLEP tests (mainly for gen eds) and providing information about distance learning or online courses that can be taken. Honestly any motivated nontraditional student could figure out on his/her own what to do if the goal is to CLEP as many classes as possible, take a few online classes or courses at a community college, and assemble it into a degree with one of the Big Three. You can go to the TESC website (for example) and easily look up the requirements for an associate's degree in accounting or a bachelor's degree in history, and figure out how to accrue those credits via CLEP and online coursework and perhaps a few classes in-person at a local institution. Earn those credits, transfer them in, take whatever else is required by the school, get your degree. It's really not hard! I think the big selling point for College Minus is to provide a security blanket for the student with some nice Christian words thrown in - they've already figured out that requirements A, B, and C for a degree program can be CLEPped while an online class from University of Podunk and another from State U can meet requirements D and E, with only one class being taken in person at Local Community College to finish off a major. Minimal exposure to "worldly" people for their sheltered children and College Minus holds your hand and tells you exactly how to get those credits - I can see why fundie parents would pay for that!

[Eponine]

Right, the institutions transferring the credits in could be accredited and therefore would be eligible to receive federal aid, but it still ultimately costs more. They'd have to pay for College Plus (so, up to $5000 per year) to get those credits, then pay the tuition/fees/whatever at whatever school they transfer into. So you'd have, say, two years (30 credits) of College Plus - $9000-$10000 - on top of one or two years of the degree-granting institution.

I definitely agree that the point of College Plus is giving people a way to protect their children from the physical campus environment, and fundies are willing to pay for that. I just wish they'd stop the nonsense about it being cheaper and "making more sense" or whatever and just say what it is: a way to keep their progeny sheltered for as long as possible while getting a poor-to-mediocre education.

[Deleted12]

I'm legitimately baffled about how parents can understand the importance of college while not allowing their kids to actually, you know, go to college.

Without the actual school part, the degree is just a piece of paper.

[Katiebug]

If I was a smart fundie parent, I would send my kids to the CC in pairs. Let them take classes they like, and if they're at school together they'll keep each other out of trouble. Also, they can study together and you might only have to buy one book for the two of them.

Hell, even if I was a secular homeschooling parent I think this is a good way to go about it.

I have a coworker with 8 kids. I guess they might be considered fundie lite; they're pretty devout and openly Christian, but they drink alcohol, enjoy sports and other activities, etc. He and his wife are very well-educated. All of the children were/are homeschooled by his wife and most have started at the local community college at around 16 years old. Because of the sheer number of children in the family and having a single income, they get a ton of financial aid, the kids live at home for the 2-odd years they're attending the CC, and thus far I think the 4 oldest have all graduated from community college at 18 and transferred to 4 year schools. GOOD 4 year schools, at that. He said that sometimes homeschoolers can have a hard time getting into a 4 year school because they have a GED. The kids have taken the SAT but even that's not enough in the case of more competitive admissions. Having the associate's degree not only negates that issue completely, but it gets most of the gen eds out of the way through transfer credit. It's not bad to finish a bachelor's degree by 20 or 21, and with much less student loan debt than if they attended a university for 4 years!

Both our flagship state university and our state university system have transfer agreements with the community colleges that are 2+2 programs for a bachelor's degree. This includes programs in nursing, engineering, hard sciences, and humanities. Even in a non-formal transfer agreement program, graduating from a state community college with at least a 3.0 guarantees admission to the state university system. We have a great community college 10 minutes from our home and I would not be at all devastated at the thought of one of our kids choosing to spend 2 more years at home for an associate's degree, and either entering the workforce or transferring to a university to continue their education. It's cheaper per-credit when compared to the nearby state university that Mr. Bug graduated from and substantially cheaper from my alma mater (our flagship university).

And yeah, College Minus makes absolutely no financial sense and is really an avenue for fundie parents to continue to shelter and isolate their children from the "evils" of the world. I just wanted to make sure folks are aware that the College Minus schools are legitimate institutions that serve a real purpose aside from granting degrees to fundies! They're not scams or diploma mills.

[Trynn]

Honestly, being here at a secular university is actually helping build my faith. When you are surrounded by people who think exactly like you, there's no need to think. but in the real world, you have to stand on your own, and then faith becomes more real. At least in some cases.

So I think the argument to shelter adult children is bunk anyway.

[MrsYoungie]

I'm still a bit confused as to what Colleg Plus actually is. Is it just a prep school for taking exemption tests for a real college? Or these CLEP things you keep talking about? I don't think we have such a thing here in Canada, so pardon my confusion.

ps - my son did a 2 year community college in tv production and we ended up paying off his $15,000 in student loans last month. His books were certainly a lot more that the $500/year someone listed above, plus his extra materials were quite expensive.

[CanadianHippie]

I'm still a bit confused as to what Colleg Plus actually is. Is it just a prep school for taking exemption tests for a real college? Or these CLEP things you keep talking about? I don't think we have such a thing here in Canada, so pardon my confusion.

ps - my son did a 2 year community college in tv production and we ended up paying off his $15,000 in student loans last month. His books were certainly a lot more that the $500/year someone listed above, plus his extra materials were quite expensive.

We don't have CLEP exams. College Plus seems to be a place where you can take tests for course credits. Honestly, that would not be my first choice, mostly because when you are in the classroom with the instructors, the discussions can go beyond what you have to learn into practical experience, or theoretical applications. Especially for things like psychology, when a couple of the Duggar girls are interested in.

[sableduck]

Community college here runs about $5,000 a semester plus fees, another $300-$400, and books run around $700 a semester. My parents have 8 kids but have never qualified for any form of financial aid except loans. All in all, they paid about 20k for the associates degree my sister just earned.

[lilwriter85]

Indeed. It bugs me that as "frugal" as they claim to be, the Duggars are willing to pay like $95,000 for 19 kids to do CollegePlus online, instead of paying AT MOST $18,000 for all of them to physically go to community college. FFS they've been all around the US plus like 3 different countries, they're all less likely to be defrauded at a community college.

Given that the Duggars would likely qualify for a shitload of federal grants and likely scholarships as well, sending 19 kids to community college would likely be much, much cheaper than $18k. More like FREE.

Even if they don't want the federal aid, community college would likely be cheaper.

Weren't the Duggars against their kids having any sort of college education anyway? WTF are they doing letting their kids do CollegePlus?

I think they are using CollegeMinus to shush some of their critics. Most people who have heard about the Duggars' involvement with CollegeMinus have done their research and are laughing at the Duggars for different reasons. CollegeMinus is very overpriced and many fundie QF families would never be able to afford it for multiple children.

[Brainsample]

Okay everyone has said most of mine but I also wanted to chime in from a financial standpoint:

College Plus is not accredited (so I gather from here, I haven't looked into it myself) and therefore cannot receive any federal financial aid money. No Pell or federal loans and probably no state grants. For many fundie families just their Pell eligibility alone would make community college, or even state schools, nearly free. The way Pell grants are determined depends heavily on the number of people in the family attending an accredited college at least half time: with the way fundies procreate and the fact that many have low incomes, I have to imagine that a hypothetical family sending their kids to college would be eligible for the maximum in Pell because their kids would probably be close in age.

Secondly, if you look at the long-term success and income brackets of people who received higher education from community colleges vs College Plus I would not be surprised to find that the community college people end up making more over their lifetimes.

A smart, money-strapped family with a child wanting a 4 year degree would send their kid to community college for two years, collect Pell and it would be extremely cheap, have the kid transfer to a state school for the last two years, which would probably cost a few hundred more per year. When I was a financial aid counselor I often recommended to families who couldn't afford the school to have the student spend a year or two in community college getting general requirements out of the way and saving a good deal of money.

So to recap: specifically for fundie families, there is a high probability community college or even state schools would end up many thousands of dollars cheaper.

ETA: Just for reference, the maximum Pell grant for this academic year, 2011-2012, was $5550 for a full time (12 credits or more) student. This would cover a year at community colleges and probably at many state schools as well.

I've talked with the staff at Thomas Edison State College who awards the degrees that College Plus arranges for them. They ARE accredited through Middle States, the same accrediting body that accredited my own private college. The College Plus coursework is transferred into a distance learning program at TESC and is considered and processed like a transfer credit. The degree does not come from College Plus. The degree is granted through the distance learning program at TESC and it is accredited.

That's why on Knight's thread, I stated that it is probably more cost effective for people to go to their own state schools and just arrange to do distance learning through their programs. They will probably save additional money as an in-state resident.

But I had phone conversations and exchanged emails with TESC staff when Phillips first started hocking College Plus, and it is an accredited degree program. If you want to save additional money, you can opt out of the coaching option that College Plus offers, mostly just "Character First" alumni who tell you to do your work and pray with you, most likely. You could likely sign up just to take Doug Phillips and Gary Demar's core curriculum section, if you just wanted to learn what they're teaching.

This is what is so hypocritical about College Plus!!!! It is a state college degree, and the lion's share of the material is SECULAR. Only a section of it is pre-reviewed by TESC and they automatically give transfer credit for their additional work (for which you pay, just like when colleges if you matriculate through transfer to another school). Maybe what they claim is that if you take College Plus material, it will train you to be immune to secular influence through their college course program. But my question is then, "Why would homeschooling not have already prepared a person for this?" I stood up like a trooper to my teachers in school when they challenged my beliefs, and I never caved because I had well thought and well developed beliefs when I went off to school. It thought that was the whole point of Christian homeschooling??????? Are they saying it doesn't work.

So College Plus is like a recruitment tool for Thomas Edison State College in NJ.

College Plus students are distance learning program students at TESC (according to staff in admissions at TESC).

The degree is granted by TESC, and they are fully accredited through Middle States (MSCHE) which is headquartered in Philadelphia.

College Plus offers their own courses which have been established ahead of time by TESC as transferable, and those become transfer credits, just like when you transfer your community college credits to another college. It is no different.

College Plus also offers what is like college "life coaching" after students finish the College Plus curriculum for transfer into a course of study with TESC. You can opt out of it or can pay the additional money to College Plus for this service.

[Brainsample]

I identify with Florence Henderson's experience, and it sounds like we had similar types of parents. Mine were more along the lines of the parents in the 50s who hovered and smothered and were what I'd call prudish and proper. They grew up, unchurched, in a remote town in rural Pennsylvania and settled in a fairly busy and progressive one when I was born, and I've always thought that they were about a generation behind the times in comparison to their same-aged peers in the more progressive city where they settled to raise me. My mom was “born again†when I was four or so, but she had a strong social moral that was more oriented towards the “good girl†ideal and “What would the neighbors say?†I was also an only child, so there was much more pressure for “my parents to get it right†with me. I was not seen or treated like an autonomous person with a lot of free choice.

I graduated a year early from a four year experience in Christian school, but I'd done well academically in public school through seventh grade. They used Accelerated Christian Education where I attended, and they let you graduate early if you had sufficient coursework. I was 16 when I graduated, so we opted for community college which worked very well for me. I was young and naïve at the time, and in addition to the socialization concerns, I was TERRIFIED about my ability to perform academically. I could not sleep the night before my first college test, for example. I was terrified of standardized testing and the whole process, though I'd done well. I'd only been required to write one mandatory paper in the ACE program, and it was not stringently graded. We never wrote essays, save for that one assignment that was part of that packet in the Jr. year section. I was terrified that I wouldn't be able to take notes because I never really had to take them. I would imagine that many homeschoolers would have concerns about the same kinds of things.

My advisor at the community college advised me to not CLEP anything because of the concerns that I had. CC was only $33/credit hour at the time, too, and I don't think that the school even offered a full time tuition option as a lump sum then! I found all of those “101†classes to be phenomenally helpful and I think I learned more in those first courses than I did in many other classes. I utilized all of the “learning lab†helps that the school offered (which I know were not available at the private college I attended later). Any paper that I turned in, I took to a professor at the “lab†and had them review and critique it before I turned it in. I went and reviewed core curriculum with a different teacher in statistics class before the test. That individualized work that I did with that English prof where he reviewed my paper then explained to me the common errors I made has been perhaps the most valuable thing of all, especially when I had so many papers to write in my nursing program.

Out of all the classes I've taken, nearly every one of those intro classes were my all time favorite ones that have been the most enjoyable and where I learned so much. I would not have been as good of a student without those classes, and college would have been an entirely different experience. Especially the English classes and especially English 101 and Speech gave me the tools that I use every day and prepared me for the rest of college. I think that people who CLEP so much really lose out on the best part of college, even if they're studying through correspondence alone.

So for the socialization help, CC was absolutely perfect for me and helped me transition well into the traditional classroom. It built my confidence, and it significantly helped me own my own perception of the world – my first real experience in that sense in so many ways. (If my mom realized ahead of time that this would happen and how significant it would be for me, she probably would have never allowed me to go.) And I think as someone transitioning out of a non-classroom setting, those intro courses (that College Plus people CLEP) were an integral part of what I learned if not perhaps the most significant foundations of the rest of what I learned in college. I would not encourage anyone to CLEP anything, and I'd suggest that it is essential for homeschoolers.

[Brainsample]

Here is info from one of the emails that I received in response to my questions about College Plus:

What is the application process like?

You can apply to Thomas Edison State College anytime. New terms start every month.

If you are ready to begin, the first step is completing an application available at http://www.tesc.edu/apply. There is a $75 application fee to apply, and all applicants receive an academic evaluation that reviews past college credits, professional training and other items that may be able to be applied as credit towards their degree program.

Once all of the documents have been received, an evaluation will take place to determine what has been accepted and what you need to take in order to complete your degree. This process typically takes up to six weeks. Upon completion, you will receive an e-mail with detailed instructions indicating how to log in to myEdison to view your academic evaluation.

>>>>>>>>>>>

I clarified other info over the phone and have many more emails. They give some credit for "life experience," something that is done in many of these long distance programs, and that is how they view the College Plus component. That is what TESC told me.

Though I have not checked it since circa 2009, the College Plus website said that the degrees were granted through TESC, that College Plus does not grant the degree. They said that other colleges distance learning programs actually grant the degrees, but at that time, the only program they'd worked with and had this kind of relationship was the one with TESC.

If they've changed anything since 2009, then that is new news.

ETA: Here is the link to the College Plus site that says that you don't actually get a degree from them but rather sign up to be a student with TESC:

collegeplus.org/howitworks/distancelearningcollege

Students graduating through a distance learning college can choose from over 20 different college majors and several colleges to graduate from. While CollegePlus! guides students through most of their distance learning studies, their degrees are ultimately granted by a regionally accredited institution.

One of these institutions is Thomas Edison State College, which allows students to transfer in as many CLEP and DSST credits as their degree track will allow. For some majors, this could be as many as 90 credits.

The rest of that stuff on the College Plus site looks like they say that you transfer credits in from other schools and that College Plus gives you credit for as many as 90 credits, depending on your degree program. But according to TESC, it is Thomas Edison State College that decides what credits will be taken and what ones won't apply as either transfer credits or as "life experience" credits (which they don't grant at all at most schools). This is all college plus spin. You might as well go directly to TESC and sign up or sign up for a program in your own state.

[Eponine]

I've talked with the staff at Thomas Edison State College who awards the degrees that College Plus arranges for them. They ARE accredited through Middle States, the same accrediting body that accredited my own private college. The College Plus coursework is transferred into a distance learning program at TESC and is considered and processed like a transfer credit. The degree does not come from College Plus. The degree is granted through the distance learning program at TESC and it is accredited.

You mean Thomas Edison is accredited, not College Plus? Since college plus doesn't give degrees, it can't be accredited, and therefore there is no way to get financial aid to pay for it. The credits then transfer to an institution, like Thomas Edison, that is accredited and grants the degree. From my point of view (as a financial aid professional) this is a major drawback of College Plus. Why pay thousands out of pocket for an inferior option, when you can get a better education much cheaper at a community college, and possibly be given free money to pay for it?

When I said before I wasn't sure about its accreditation I just meant I hadn't looked into the process of getting credits from College Plus, or whether it gave degrees like some online "universities." Now it's clear that it does not give degrees and just helps students get gen eds out of the way for a real (in some cases) university. Sorry for confusion.

[emmiedahl]

About books: books will probably cost the same regardless of whether you take the class at cc or do CP. I just chose my own figure from when I was in cc.

[Brainsample]

You mean Thomas Edison is accredited, not College Plus? Since college plus doesn't give degrees, it can't be accredited, and therefore there is no way to get financial aid to pay for it. The credits then transfer to an institution, like Thomas Edison, that is accredited and grants the degree. From my point of view (as a financial aid professional) this is a major drawback of College Plus. Why pay thousands out of pocket for an inferior option, when you can get a better education much cheaper at a community college, and possibly be given free money to pay for it?

When I said before I wasn't sure about its accreditation I just meant I hadn't looked into the process of getting credits from College Plus, or whether it gave degrees like some online "universities." Now it's clear that it does not give degrees and just helps students get gen eds out of the way for a real (in some cases) university. Sorry for confusion.

That's okay -- I looked into it extensively and talked with TESC when this first popped up a couple of years ago.

I don't understand why people do not question this more and it shows how dumbed down the population of people who opt for this really are -- that they are just sheeple following a carnival barker.

First, College Plus is a money maker. It inserts a middle man in the process of higher education through a distance learning program. Gothard trained people are in on it as what are essentially "life coaches," and a well-disciplined person does not need this service. Maybe they pray with you or something. Maybe they review the secular material that you have to take in the TESC classes at regular intervals and point it out as you go through the coursework, making sure that they put a Christian spin and Christian discernment on everything. I don't know. But you don't need College Plus to do this, and they are inserting extra costs in there. You just need to go to your local state college to learn about their distance learning programs.

Doug Phillips gets to make bank from this endeavor. He gets paid to teach or got paid to write a curriculum.

Second, it conceals from people that they are getting a secular degree. I thought a secular education was sinful or dangerous, and that's part of why you don't want to send your kids to school. THIS IS A SECULAR PROGRAM!!!! But I guess they feel that because the work is done in the home, it is theoretically done under a parent's supervision, so it is not as potentially dangerous in terms of secular indoctrination as the classroom at the secular school.

But this is deceptive. They do not come out and tell you that you are attending a secular program and make it sound like a Christian alternative. It's not. It's a secular alternative with some Christian embellishments. If you want to give your kids a Christian experience in the terms that measure up to most fundies, you've got to send your kid to Bob Jones U or even a good Christian college somewhere, but most people in the VF set and the College Plus market believe that the Christian colleges are unsafe and will seduce you with humanist and secular ideas. This is a grand lie to call College Plus Christian because they tack some Christian courses on there. You'd be better served to attend a Christian college for a year or two, then transfer those credits into a state program. They're trying to have it both ways, and it is a lie.

[Brainsample]

And in favor of Community Colleges,

If the people who push College Plus think that these secular courses are safer because parents are expected to get involved and talk to their kids about what they're learning, then this could just as easily be done with a student who goes to community college. With either type of program, the parent will have to take interest and do their own study to stay abreast of what their kid is working on, and they'll have to talk about the religious and phliosophical implications that might "threaten their Christian worldview". The motivated parent can do this just as well with the College Plus stuff as they could with a student in community college.

In a way, if the parent is essentially delegating this task to the College Plus coaches, is this not a usurping of the parent's authority and role in the adult child's life? They farmed out their responsibility to a non-family source, to a "Character First" person. That's a bit like age-segregated education, isn't it? I thought that was a sin. The only thing that makes it family oriented is that it actually is done over the phone or through Skype, so it counts because it's been authorized or something. That is a total crock. These folks just decide what they want to do based on preference and then they just come up with spin to sell it as Christian.

And what are they saying about homsechooling? It essentially says that homeschooling doesn't prepare a child to be a strong and discerning Christian and that you must be afraid of the world as opposed to the Spirit of Love, Power and a Sound Mind that is given to the Christian through the Holy Spirit and through spiritual rebirth. You can't do it without the intervention of the spiritual mediator. This is exactly what College Plus becomes. It's like the holy priest that goes to God for you as opposed to you going directly to God yourself through Jesus and in His Name. You can't go to college unless you do it through Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard.

I think that the material is probably pretty good. I've love Gary DeMar's material and have a great deal of it on my bookshelf (he has written part of the College Plus core curriculum that is transferred into TESC). If your homeschooling did its job, however, why do you need this. And if you need this or want this additional training, that's fine too. It's just odd to me that they act like you need it and can't do it without them.

[Brainsample]

It is a farce and the ultimate in hypocritical to me. Did I communicate that well enough? I feel upset about it enough to want to state it and reiterate it again.

I can't believe that people just swallow this stuff and do not step back to say, "They want me to send them money so that I can enroll my kid in a secular state college?" I would think that it is the ultimate deal breaker for those who trusted in the religious dogma behind why you're supposed to homeschool your kid and what it's supposed to accomplish. It's admitting that homeschooling doesn't really do what it's supposed to do and what they promised you that it would do. Then they act like they are running a college on top of it.

HYPOCRITICAL!!!!

Alright. Maybe it's out of my system now. Back to regular programming.