Community College Versus College Plus

[debrand]

My son is taking his general requirements thought the local community. Because of the Pell Grant, we pay nothng for the classess and books.(although we do pay for gas and supplies, of course) This will help cut down the costs of his education.

From what I understand College Plus costs $4,000-$5,000. I don't know if the program accepts the pell grant.

Most of my son's fellow students are Christian. Chris is friends with a boy who openly wears a purity ring. He has had discussions with some students about creationsim and evolution. There is no bias against religion at his school. He has had liberal and conservative teachers. No one failed him if his views conflicted with theirs.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with being able to take the CLEP test but fundie parents are letting baseless fear keep their kids from attending college.

Maybe a fundie parent or young person will stumble on this thread. Perhaps some of you can explain why actually attending a college campus is a good experience for most kids.

[apple1]

Perhaps some of you can explain why actually attending a college campus is a good experience for most kids.

I'll start. (This SHOULD be an epic thread, because the list is very long.

- Education (of all kinds) can make you a better person than you started as, depending on what you do with what you get.

- Education can help you learn how to think and reason.

- Education can help you obtain valuable job skills (depending on choice of subject matter).

- FORMAL college education, when completed, demonstrates to potential employers your ability to follow through to completion, work ethic if you will.

- FORMAL college education helps transition people from "youth" in a world of their parents' making (this is also the case in non-fundy families) into "adult" in the real world.

- FORMAL college education demonstrates ability to conform to a schedule not of your own making (another plus to potential employers). Aside: My husband once- for a short time- had a coworker (IT field; the guy was computer-geek-smart) who had been entirely not-religiously-home-schooled, on his own schedule, all his life- the guy lasted only a few weeks because he had no social skills and also could not get the idea of showing up for work on the boss's schedule.

- At 17 or 18 or whatever, you really have no idea of the path your life is going to take and somewhere down the road you may need the ability to change paths. Real college gives you skills and abilities to do that.

Someone else?

[Kitty]

My sister actually paid about $900, but this was before the scholarships, so she got much of it refunded...

I live in a very conservative area too, so while there's no (visible) fundies it's not like anyone could be defrauded. ffs.

But yeah, community college would be cheaper and more useful since CC's are actually accredited.

[lilwriter85]

I'll start. (This SHOULD be an epic thread, because the list is very long.

- Education (of all kinds) can make you a better person than you started as, depending on what you do with what you get.

- Education can help you learn how to think and reason.

- Education can help you obtain valuable job skills (depending on choice of subject matter).

- FORMAL college education, when completed, demonstrates to potential employers your ability to follow through to completion, work ethic if you will.

- FORMAL college education helps transition people from "youth" in a world of their parents' making (this is also the case in non-fundy families) into "adult" in the real world.

- FORMAL college education demonstrates ability to conform to a schedule not of your own making (another plus to potential employers). Aside: My husband once- for a short time- had a coworker (IT field; the guy was computer-geek-smart) who had been entirely not-religiously-home-schooled, on his own schedule, all his life- the guy lasted only a few weeks because he had no social skills and also could not get the idea of showing up for work on the boss's schedule.

- At 17 or 18 or whatever, you really have no idea of the path your life is going to take and somewhere down the road you may need the ability to change paths. Real college gives you skills and abilities to do that.

Someone else?

Well said apple1.

I agree with debrand, I don't think there is anything wrong with taking CLEP tests. I CLEP tested out of Spanish which I was glad I did because I didn't want to take another Spanish class in college.

I think it is best that young people attend an actual school for the most of their general ed to get a fuller experience from instructors who are experts and can offer additional information to the subjects they teach.

[Scone]

For me personally I have found the best part of formal education is being in a classroom setting and having lecturers and tutors right there to explain things. Sure with a distance course you can email, but it just works so much better face to face. In addition, in a real class you have the benefit of being around your classmates. Often someone else in my class will ask a question I never would have thought to ask, but the answers are very interesting and relevant to my work. In a distance/email type of course you miss out on all that.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I went to a local University while living at home. My parents, who call themselves Liberal, did not think that nice girls should live outside their parents' home before marriage. (Snark on that!) Although I did get exposed to a lot of things that my parents feared that I would, they also had a greed deal of control over me for an extended period of time. It did, by my Junior Year, become an untenable situation. When I left home after graduation it was not pretty. I am 51 years old and we have still not entirely healed.

My children went away for college. I allowed them to become independent of me, of my thoughts, and to think critically on their own. They are happier and more well adjusted than I am.

In short,letting kids go to community college or a University is a stepping stone to separation from parents. I think it is good and healthy. However,if a parent has the goal of keeping young adults naive to the world around them, it will cause all sorts of questioning and of trying on of things that would be uncomfortable to a Fundy. Of course, the sheltering is necessary to keep the emerging adult dependent on the movement.

[loveandwar]

Currently I'm a senior at a 4 year university, but I went the community college route first. I would recommend it to anyone. I had liberal and conservative professors, and most of them knew to keep their political leanings to themselves in the classroom.

One of my favorite professors was my public speaking prof, whose political beliefs were polar opposite from mine. Even when my persuasive speech was on something he completely disagreed with, he graded fairly. He noted on my grade sheet that I'd presented my side of the topic well and it made him really think about his own opinion. Final grade for the persuasive speech? A.

My community college was huge, so I had the opportunity to meet a lot of people. Even met my ex during my 2nd to last semester there. (Oh...wait...that's not gonna convince fundies!)

[bananacat]

There are two reasons why I think going to a campus is beneficial, but they are the exact same reasons fundie wouldn't like it. First and most importantly, you meet other people. You make great friends, but you also meet people you disagree. You learn how to deal with disagreements and different viewpoints, and sometimes you even change your mind when you get to know someone who is really different than you. This happens very early, even starting in daycare or elementary school, but it's especially true when you go to college. There tend to be more variety of backgrounds at a college, even at a community college.

The other reason that learning on-campus is good is that it helps young adults learn to be independent and take care of themselves. Even for the students who don't live on campus, they still have more control (and more risk) over their classes. The teachers at college generally won't coddle and hold hands the way they do in high school. Many of my college courses didn't give credit for homework; you do the homework because it helps you learn the material. If you don't do it you won't be immediately penalized, but you'll probably feel it on the test. If you can learn well enough without doing the homework, then that is your choice as an adult to make. It's often the same with attendance, especially for lectures (but not for lab-type classes). If you don't show up to classes or don't bother to do homework and then you bomb a test, most teachers will be unsympathetic.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

I had a hard time in high school. I was depressed and didn't fit in anywhere. I dropped out at 17 before I flunked out, and took my GED at 17.

In my hometown in Michigan we have a wonderful community college and my mom encouraged me to go there and see where it took me. I looked at the catalog and decided criminal justice would be interesting - long story short 18 months later I graduated with honors and a 4.0. When I moved here a year later I transferred into a great 4 year university and graduated with my Bachelors in 2000.

Community College gave me the sense that I could learn, that I wasn't dumb like the administrators at my high school had told me. It taught me that I had my future in my own hands, but they were there to help me. It gave me a sense of independence - I was there because I wanted to be, not because I had to be. There were tutors and study groups and computer labs and great professors, all there to help me help myself to succeed.

I think Community College is one of the great resources of this country and no test can replace that.

[dawbs]

I was just typing about this on the other thread.

I work at a very well respected community college. (it IS located in a very rough area, but the campus itself is very safe).

Things my campus offers that I don't see at college plus:

-Challenge. I'm not talking about academic challenge, I'm talking about people challenging what you think and believe. Ready or not, this is a GOOD thing. So being in a ecology class w/ a creationist makes me think about things; being in that same class w/ strident evolutionists challenges the 'other' side.

-Lots and lots of help. One of the reasons 'my' college gets the props it does is for it's developmental resources--so a student who doesn't have the skills in a tobic (math, reading, writing, etc) and needs some remedial help can GET it.

This also applies to students who just plain struggle--you think chemistry is hard, well, we have tutoring (free to students) for that.

You have a learning disability? we have resources for that.

(on my campus, we have a 'drop in' math tutoring lab open close to 60 hours per week. In addition, each student can get 5 hours of tutoring, per week, in just about any subject under the sun, at the Tutoring Center. )

-Other resources--library. Computer lab. museums. greenhouse. art gallery.

-A chance fore extracurricular's. Sure, there's LGBT societies. There are also honor societies, service groups, chances to do good and connect over religion, math, science, writing, English, etc. Some of the AMAZING people I know in the world (authors, scientists, doctors lawyers) I met at such clubs in my own college experience and it has expanded my circles in ways nothing else could.

(and, yes, we have fundies here. We have fundies who make it through w/o being challenged because that's what they choose. I'm still glad they're HERE, not at college plus)

-Studying 'non-traditional' things. CC can be a great step to a year degree. They can also be a chance to study things that wouldn't be part of a 4 year degree. Learning to be a carpenter, learning CAD, dental hygiene, truck driver, pilot, cosmetology, early childhood ed...the list is on and on. So someone who doesn't want a 4 year degree can get a chance to learn things

-More affordable. Just over $3k per year for all this--way less than college plus costs. And that's w/o any sort of scholarship (about double that price for out of state students) or loans or what not. And students have the chance to work some wonderful work-study jobs that give them a great chance to pay part of their tuition while the employer always keeps in mind that they are students who need some accommodations (my student workers are given 3 'I have a test tomorrow' call of days per semester :) and ease them into the 'real world'

-More marketable. An accredited college gives students something that will be respected on a resume in a way College Plus will never be.

[Kelya]

So, I was curious and took a look at my alma mater and state schools in the two states I lived in.

All would allow IB/AP/CLEP credits, but for different amounts. My alma mater? 30 credits could be CLEP, and up to 80 could be transferred from other ACCREDITED colleges. State school 1, local flagship campus? Only offers CLEP to prove levels of knowledge and test out of beginning levels, won't grant credits for the tests unless you're in an adult education program. State school 2? Depends on the program, with some, like nursing, biology, etc., not accepting any and others like English accepting up to 20 and some in between only accepting them for opting out.

So If you took 80 credit hours (which is my state is two years of full time Community College classes), you'd have two years left at my alma mater, 4 years in which to take advanced classes at my local state school, and at the second state school, it would vary widely, but Jill ain't midwifing there.

The important theme: As much as they claim, normal, accredited universities and colleges will probs not accepted 2 years of CLEP credit. Now, at fundie schools:

Patrick Henry College

6. Vocational, technical, developmental, remedial, and military courses or courses graded on a pass/fail scale are generally not eligible for transfer. Credits awarded on the basis of institutional or competency exams are not eligible for transfer. No credit will be awarded on the basis of life experience. No credit will be awarded for CLEP (College Level Examination Program).

http://www.phc.edu/transfer.php

Bob Jones University

To be recognized, credits must have been earned prior to enrollment at Bob Jones University and after the sophomore year of high school. The total credit earned through AP, CLEP and IB programs is limited to 30 semester hours which includes any credit in transfer presented from approved correspondence s

chools. There is no charge for recognition of AP, CLEP and IB credits.

[deborahlynn1979]

I lived at home all four years I attended college, but I do remember going to school my first day (and I have a diary entry on this) and being AMAZED at all the different people: there were women wearing headscarves, people from India, Chinese people, a complete and total 180 from my all-white high school. And I learned that these people are no different from me and that maybe my religion isn't the only one. No one taught me these things; my mind was opened just by paying attention to other people. In my high school, you were looked down upon if you were smart, or studied, or enjoyed learning, but in college, people looked up to you. I became friends with people I never would have hung out with in high school.

I cannot say enough about how lucky I was to be able to go to college; so many people in this country can't do it for one reason or another. I graduated from college ten years ago, and I still look back on it fondly and I still miss it.

[FemaleScientist]

I can understand taking a CLEP to fulfill a general education credit or two, but don't use it in place of community college. And do your research as to whether the CLEP will be accepted or not.

I believe it means so much more if you send your son or daughter (gasp!) to college with their set of beliefs, and they have those beliefs challenged and then either make their own informed decisions about the world around them or stick with their convictions. Contrary to what media portrays about college in movies, it is not all about big parties, sex, and drugs. There are people who are there to actually learn something!

There ARE Christian organizations that Christians can join and become actively involved in the campus, too. Something to keep in mind. Otherwise there are accredited christian colleges. So many other options out there over CollegePlus.

[marmalade]

But yeah, community college would be cheaper and more useful since CC's are actually accredited.

I had 70 transferrable units @ $20/unit (they raised this to $36/unit once the budget cuts took hold in 2009). Unfortunately, right after I transferred, tuition also covered a bus pass if you were enrolled in 8 units or more/semester. I did have to pay for my own transportation and books, but still, selling books back, my community college overhead was very low and got me into a world-renowned university.

This university (or its sister state schools) do NOT accept CLEP credits, although the lower tier state schools (the Cal State system) does accept a small number of credits. Curious about the Duggars, the University of Arkansas accepts some CLEP credits, but only 3 units in what are usually 4 unit courses, and the list is very limited (NO sciences whatsoever, other than psychology). No way you can CLEP your way through the breadth courses required to transfer (and graduate from ) any reputable liberal arts college (even Patrick Henry from the looks of it).

[desertvixen]

- FORMAL college education helps transition people from "youth" in a world of their parents' making (this is also the case in non-fundy families) into "adult" in the real world.

- FORMAL college education demonstrates ability to conform to a schedule not of your own making (another plus to potential employers). Aside: My husband once- for a short time- had a coworker (IT field; the guy was computer-geek-smart) who had been entirely not-religiously-home-schooled, on his own schedule, all his life- the guy lasted only a few weeks because he had no social skills and also could not get the idea of showing up for work on the boss's schedule.

- At 17 or 18 or whatever, you really have no idea of the path your life is going to take and somewhere down the road you may need the ability to change paths. Real college gives you skills and abilities to do that.

These are all huge. Part of what I do right now (I work with Soldiers in Advanced Individual Training, so like Basic Training: The Sequel) involves a lot of young people who have just graduated high school and left home. I have some older people too, but most of this crowd is so young, I was going to high school when they were crawling around in diapers. Seeing the ones who have been pretty sheltered or had the helicopter parents interact with the older ones is instructive for them (and entertaining for me). We all need some sort of transition into adulthood.

Having skills on paper keeps you competitive.

Being able to learn and stretch, though, is the simple greatest thing. I can read all I want on a subject, but it adds so much more to the subject when a) I can discuss it with other people in my class, defend my arguments and b) being exposed to things that you normally would not.

[alphaeta08]

Specifically for community college:

I learned the most from some of the community college classes I took during summers and in high school. The students were from so many different backgrounds, and there were usually older people with real lives and issues who could add a unique perspective. And yes, it was a great deal financially, unlike College Minus. Of course, meeting different people is a check in a fundie's con column. But aren't these the people who say, "My homeschooled kids are better because they can interact with different age groups, unlike public school where kids of the same age are FORCED to be together!!!" Shouldn't their kids be superstars in nontraditional groups of students? Guess not.

[slickcat79]

Not that this really has to do with the college plus vs. CC debate, but a college degree is also very likely to earn you more money. The job I currently have is far from my dream job, but I consider myself lucky to have gotten it when I graduated college in '07, and kept it through the last 4 years when my company has gone through massive layoffs. Just having a degree meant that I was hired at the highest pay level this job was offering. It still wasn't great, but it allowed me to be able to have my own place, support myself and start saving for the future. Had I been hired at the low end of the range, I would have made a higher wage stocking shelves at Target.

I also don't see the appeal of college plus in general. Even if you decide to try to CLEP out of certain courses, you don't need college plus to be able to do that. Depending on which college you go to, you may not even need to CLEP exams. I placed out of spanish 1 & 2 at my university, and got actual course credit for spanish 3 just by taking the (free) placement exam that the university offered. Same with english courses. I got credit for a couple other courses through SAT-2s and AP exams, which are probably similar to CLEP. I didn't need anything more than my high school level education to start college with a semester's worth of credits, and most people I know started out with more than that.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I kinda wonder how much appeal College Plus is going to have in the long run. As others point out, community college is often cheaper. I don't know about ATI circles, but in reformed circles, I get the impression that CP is not uniformly embraced. My old church pushes families to be very discerning about where they send children to college and some of the girls are becoming SAHDs, but I haven't been hearing a lot of love for CP when I've been home visiting. I have a lot of high school age cousins and most are either going to community college, Patrick Henry, Geneva College, etc....

Even though reform fundies I know are horrified by mainstream culture, they tend not to live under a rock. There is more respect for credentials and education there than in other forms of fundie-dom. That's one reason why I find it so odd that VF and company are pushing College Plus; I'd much more expect them to start their own alternative college with a rigorous liberal arts program a la Patrick Henry.

[CanadianHippie]

May have been said already, but my favourite part of actually attending classes on campus is the people. I get to interact with people who have similar interests or share the same goals as me. The reason I love my University specifically is the class size, they max out at 35 students which means there are lots of chances to interact with the instructor and the other students. Hell last semester, in my Bio-psych class, we discussed the possibility of a Zombie virus, why Magneto should be dead, among other things. And when you stop by your teachers office during office hours, there's a good chance the teacher will recognize you and know what class you're from.

[emmiedahl]

At our community college, high school students (including homeschooled) can take a program which gives them both high school and college credit. If kids choose to do that, they can graduate from high school with two years of college already finished, and it is free. The school district pays for it.

Obviously I don't see College Plus as a good deal. My university only allows you to CLEP out of 30 units, which is one year of work. And those don't count toward your major, they are general ed only.

I take college classes on the internet so I am a fan of that model for people who cannot or will not go away to school. I don't get the full college experience, but I have learned more than I would from just studying and taking the test. For example, my genetics teacher is considered an authority on the topic and has been involved in genome research. She is from Ireland and is just one of many internationally recognized scientists who teach at WSU. Some of the things she has taught us, she participated in discovering them. When I googled her name, the first few pages of results were links to groundbreaking studies she has participated in. And that is the person who is teaching me. Most professors are experts in their fields with significant real life experience and offer a lot more than a book ever will. CollegePlus will not give you that.

On the first day of my anthro class, the instructor asked us to write down our biases regarding gender and culture and share them in a classroom forum. That has taught me more than anything else I will learn in the class. I now know that my feminist beliefs are also pro-Western biases that I need to be aware of as I look at other cultures. I am being taught to judge a culture by their own rules and to look outside my own experience. That is powerful. And you won't get that from College Plus.

My university is expensive for public universities, but the community college in my area is dirt cheap. I don't see how College Plus will save anyone money considering that they are going to pay $5000 or more for a handful of general ed classes.

[loveandwar]

And when you stop by your teachers office during office hours, there's a good chance the teacher will recognize you and know what class you're from.

^This!! One of my professors greeted me by name as I was walking around campus the other day. My university also has a class size limit (30, I think) so it's easier to make friends (and get notes if you miss a class)!

[pomology]

^This!! One of my professors greeted me by name as I was walking around campus the other day. My university also has a class size limit (30, I think) so it's easier to make friends (and get notes if you miss a class)!

Not only do all my professors from this semester know me reasonably well, most of my professors from the last three years do, as well. Also, we had our honors seminar at my advisor's house (who is also leading our honors seminar) and she made us cake and I got to cuddle with her cute dogs. Of course, there are a lot of reasons I like my school, but professors making me cake (or having students over their houses) is pretty high on the list. Of course, the whole cake thing is just a reflection of a much more important thing: that your professors actually care about you, want you in their classes, and want you to be learning, and will do their best to make sure that happens.

[Eponine]

Okay everyone has said most of mine but I also wanted to chime in from a financial standpoint:

College Plus is not accredited (so I gather from here, I haven't looked into it myself) and therefore cannot receive any federal financial aid money. No Pell or federal loans and probably no state grants. For many fundie families just their Pell eligibility alone would make community college, or even state schools, nearly free. The way Pell grants are determined depends heavily on the number of people in the family attending an accredited college at least half time: with the way fundies procreate and the fact that many have low incomes, I have to imagine that a hypothetical family sending their kids to college would be eligible for the maximum in Pell because their kids would probably be close in age.

Secondly, if you look at the long-term success and income brackets of people who received higher education from community colleges vs College Plus I would not be surprised to find that the community college people end up making more over their lifetimes.

A smart, money-strapped family with a child wanting a 4 year degree would send their kid to community college for two years, collect Pell and it would be extremely cheap, have the kid transfer to a state school for the last two years, which would probably cost a few hundred more per year. When I was a financial aid counselor I often recommended to families who couldn't afford the school to have the student spend a year or two in community college getting general requirements out of the way and saving a good deal of money.

So to recap: specifically for fundie families, there is a high probability community college or even state schools would end up many thousands of dollars cheaper.

ETA: Just for reference, the maximum Pell grant for this academic year, 2011-2012, was $5550 for a full time (12 credits or more) student. This would cover a year at community colleges and probably at many state schools as well.

[Kitty]

Okay everyone has said most of mine but I also wanted to chime in from a financial standpoint:

College Plus is not accredited (so I gather from here, I haven't looked into it myself) and therefore cannot receive any federal financial aid money. No Pell or federal loans and probably no state grants. For many fundie families just their Pell eligibility alone would make community college, or even state schools, nearly free. The way Pell grants are determined depends heavily on the number of people in the family attending an accredited college at least half time: with the way fundies procreate and the fact that many have low incomes, I have to imagine that a hypothetical family sending their kids to college would be eligible for the maximum in Pell because their kids would probably be close in age.

Secondly, if you look at the long-term success and income brackets of people who received higher education from community colleges vs College Plus I would not be surprised to find that the community college people end up making more over their lifetimes.

A smart, money-strapped family with a child wanting a 4 year degree would send their kid to community college for two years, collect Pell and it would be extremely cheap, have the kid transfer to a state school for the last two years, which would probably cost a few hundred more per year. When I was a financial aid counselor I often recommended to families who couldn't afford the school to have the student spend a year or two in community college getting general requirements out of the way and saving a good deal of money.

So to recap: specifically for fundie families, there is a high probability community college or even state schools would end up many thousands of dollars cheaper.

Indeed. It bugs me that as "frugal" as they claim to be, the Duggars are willing to pay like $95,000 for 19 kids to do CollegePlus online, instead of paying AT MOST $18,000 for all of them to physically go to community college. FFS they've been all around the US plus like 3 different countries, they're all less likely to be defrauded at a community college.

Given that the Duggars would likely qualify for a shitload of federal grants and likely scholarships as well, sending 19 kids to community college would likely be much, much cheaper than $18k. More like FREE.

Even if they don't want the federal aid, community college would likely be cheaper.

Weren't the Duggars against their kids having any sort of college education anyway? WTF are they doing letting their kids do CollegePlus?

[Deleted12]

If I was a smart fundie parent, I would send my kids to the CC in pairs. Let them take classes they like, and if they're at school together they'll keep each other out of trouble. Also, they can study together and you might only have to buy one book for the two of them.

Hell, even if I was a secular homeschooling parent I think this is a good way to go about it.