Gilead is Real - The War on Women and Abortion Part 3

[GreyhoundFan]

Every Dem needs to remind voters daily that Arizona is what the Rs want. 

 

[noseybutt]

On 2/26/2024 at 2:52 PM, GreyhoundFan said:

The Handmaid’s Tale come to life :

 

 

This law has been around for some time. I was aware of it back in early 2000s.

 

ETA Back in the day the reasoning was to establish paternity and ensure child support. Sexist, yes, but also intended to protect children in the days prior to paternity testing. Husband was wallets assumed to be father, and allowing divorce during pregnancy would possibly leave a child with a father/financial support.

Edited April 10 by noseybutt

[obiwanfreak]

12 hours ago, GreyhoundFan said:

Two old white men laughing about taking away women's rights:

 

This is just disgusting. Oh, it can’t be that expensive to buy a bus ticket… Go eff yourselves. 

[Smash!]

The GQP‘s aim to control women doesn’t stop at abortion or birth control. I‘m convinced they see women as 2nd class citizens so I think everything women had fought for in the past is at stake: From the right to vote to the law that females need to be included in clinical trials or funding research for diseases that affect predominantly women.

It sounds dystopian but it‘s already worse than lots people thought it could get before the fall of Roe.

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, Smash! said:

The GQP‘s aim to control women doesn’t stop at abortion or birth control. I‘m convinced they see women as 2nd class citizens so I think everything women had fought for in the past is at stake: From the right to vote to the law that females need to be included in clinical trials or funding research for diseases that affect predominantly women.

It sounds dystopian but it‘s already worse than lots people thought it could get before the fall of Roe.

💯 

Many of the old laws (like the MO preventing divorce while pregnant) were framed around care for children but only could be passed if women were 2nd class citizens.

That thinking very much continues today.

 

[Xan]

"Men!  Do you want to always feel better about yourself?  Do you want to be better than someone else wherever you go -- even in your own home?  Wouldn't you like to make sure that no woman can divorce you?  Wouldn't it be great if we could guilt all the women into staying home and serving men hot meals?

Just vote Republican!  We might even be able to take away women's rights to vote!  And they certainly wouldn't be likely to cheat on you if we don't let them have birth control.  Think of that!  Guaranteed fidelity!

And what about those women bosses?  Aren't you tired of having women tell you what to do?  Don't you want to make sure that women never get paid as much as you are paid?  

Vote Republican!  We pretend to care about women but -- let's face it -- we're lying.  Let's go back to a time when women knew their place!"

[GreyhoundFan]

The AZ legislature doubled down. 

 

[Ozlsn]

2 hours ago, noseybutt said:

💯

Many of the old laws (like the MO preventing divorce while pregnant) were framed around care for children but only could be passed if women were 2nd class citizens.

That thinking very much continues today.

Yes - even if divorced or divorcing the law can assume paternity and set support. Forcing people to wait, even pre-testing availability, is ridiculous. 

The one I cannot get over is wanting to remove no fault divorce. How many Republican congressmen are divorced and re-married again? It's like so many men cannot see that this will actually affect them too, in a way that the overturning of Roe vs Wade won't. Then again the rich assume the law won't apply to them anyway, so I guess that tracks.

[noseybutt]

34 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

Yes - even if divorced or divorcing the law can assume paternity and set support. Forcing people to wait, even pre-testing availability, is ridiculous. 

The one I cannot get over is wanting to remove no fault divorce. How many Republican congressmen are divorced and re-married again? It's like so many men cannot see that this will actually affect them too, in a way that the overturning of Roe vs Wade won't. Then again the rich assume the law won't apply to them anyway, so I guess that tracks.

My theory:  It's men not wanting to pay child support.

[GreyhoundFan]

I'm glad to read this from the AZ governor:

[Xan]

Back in the 70's, I read a book called The Woman's Room by Marilyn French.  There's a line from it that has stuck with me all these years.  It is "Scratch a woman, find a rage".  That's certainly true with me.  It doesn't take much for all the old stuff to surface.  I had a friend who went the coat hanger route to perform her own abortion and almost died.  I have had jobs where I was paid less.  I have been at parties and gatherings where there was always some man -- sometimes an old geezer -- who thought it was okay to grab my ass.  I have found myself in unsafe surroundings due to being a female and thinking it was okay to walk alone.  I remember going to get birth control pills as an unmarried woman and being told off by the male gynecologist.

I can't believe that we made so much progress and we find ourselves fighting for our rights yet again.  

[just_ordinary]

I am usually quiet here. Looking at the US from the outside does not make me understand certain things. But quite honestly- I don’t get why not more women are leaving the country permanently. And quickly. Of course not everyone can, but leaving the US is also not an impossible crazy expensive thing. English is spoken in most countries of the world as second or third language. So it’s not as if they couldn’t communicate till they are fluent enough in their new home. Many countries are in need for workers. So the chances to get into work (maybe not into your exact field but this is actually getting better as well- sucks for us but is great if you immigrate) are actually not that bad. There are thousands of yt channels that explain and showcase her story of immigrants from the US in their chosen country. 
I would wager the bet that leaving the US all together might even be easier than moving states. Because from what I read the time to get on your feet would be easier somewhere else (benefit schemes, healthcare, language courses and job training, children are eligible for kindergarten and school with no additional cost….)
I look over the pond and I see your rage and fear but I can’t shed the feeling that you won’t see another Democrat win this time. I really can’t see how any women could feel save and raising daughters in good conscience. I don’t want to exclude all the men and sons that are standing with you but it just hits different if it’s about your body and freedom.

If my country would come up with such shit, I most definitely wouldn’t bat an eye to take my hat and leave. The country has to work for the people and not the other way around- especially as this is not the first time. If anything, things have gotten more dire for years now - just look at this forum-and no „voting with your feet“ has helped. But as I said it’s an outside perspective and therefore distorted. 

I do wonder if the global uprise of right wing agendas (sorry we are not talking about mainstream conservative agendas. Haven’t in a long time.) is partly because conservative view points do have a right of existence and a state has to balance them out. A compromise is not ideal but can be good enough to appease both sides, even if it is with gritted teeth. Our abortion regulations aren’t perfect. But the majority of both sides feel seen and respected. It’s a frail truce but it’s one that deserves to be protected. I fear if the pendulum swings too far into the direction of legalising it completely we might be confronted with similar developments as we see in the US. And while I am far more liberal than the current state of the law, I want my children to grow up with nothing less. I think certain developments into the more „liberal“ direction need generations to really take root in the mainstream society. So the people dead set against abortion are mostly old now. And the few young ones are few (and evangelical religious nut jobs. Thankfully the catholics are mostly fine no matter what the official stance of the RCC is). Their numbers won’t have the power to sway things in 25 years time. It took over 20 years to establish abortions as not prosecutable at all till 12 weeks and several reasons when the same applies till birth as a wide spread compromise in society. Lets hope with another 15 years we can pick up the fight again to push the boundaries further. And that, as last time, we can establish a new normal that is wildly accepted. 
 

sorry I obviously got carried away 

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I am usually quiet here. Looking at the US from the outside does not make me understand certain things. But quite honestly- I don’t get why not more women are leaving the country permanently. And quickly. Of course not everyone can, but leaving the US is also not an impossible crazy expensive thing. English is spoken in most countries of the world as second or third language. So it’s not as if they couldn’t communicate till they are fluent enough in their new home. Many countries are in need for workers. So the chances to get into work (maybe not into your exact field but this is actually getting better as well- sucks for us but is great if you immigrate) are actually not that bad. There are thousands of yt channels that explain and showcase her story of immigrants from the US in their chosen country. 
I would wager the bet that leaving the US all together might even be easier than moving states. Because from what I read the time to get on your feet would be easier somewhere else (benefit schemes, healthcare, language courses and job training, children are eligible for kindergarten and school with no additional cost….)
I look over the pond and I see your rage and fear but I can’t shed the feeling that you won’t see another Democrat win this time. I really can’t see how any women could feel save and raising daughters in good conscience. I don’t want to exclude all the men and sons that are standing with you but it just hits different if it’s about your body and freedom.

If my country would come up with such shit, I most definitely wouldn’t bat an eye to take my hat and leave. The country has to work for the people and not the other way around- especially as this is not the first time. If anything, things have gotten more dire for years now - just look at this forum-and no „voting with your feet“ has helped. But as I said it’s an outside perspective and therefore distorted. 

I do wonder if the global uprise of right wing agendas (sorry we are not talking about mainstream conservative agendas. Haven’t in a long time.) is partly because conservative view points do have a right of existence and a state has to balance them out. A compromise is not ideal but can be good enough to appease both sides, even if it is with gritted teeth. Our abortion regulations aren’t perfect. But the majority of both sides feel seen and respected. It’s a frail truce but it’s one that deserves to be protected. I fear if the pendulum swings too far into the direction of legalising it completely we might be confronted with similar developments as we see in the US. And while I am far more liberal than the current state of the law, I want my children to grow up with nothing less. I think certain developments into the more „liberal“ direction need generations to really take root in the mainstream society. So the people dead set against abortion are mostly old now. And the few young ones are few (and evangelical religious nut jobs. Thankfully the catholics are mostly fine no matter what the official stance of the RCC is). Their numbers won’t have the power to sway things in 25 years time. It took over 20 years to establish abortions as not prosecutable at all till 12 weeks and several reasons when the same applies till birth as a wide spread compromise in society. Lets hope with another 15 years we can pick up the fight again to push the boundaries further. And that, as last time, we can establish a new normal that is wildly accepted. 
 

sorry I obviously got carried away 

And I obviously can’t count- because the last big improvement was in the 80s. So around 40 years. We are due for another step. Lets see when we get there.

[Coconut Flan]

Moving state to state is definitely easier than moving countries. Many of us live in states without abortion issues. Families, jobs, established lives are all important, too. And as is usual in situations like this, those most able to move are the least affected by restrictions. The people most affected are least likely to relocate overall. If crossing state lines to get an abortion is an insurmountable task, upping sticks for Switzerland say is an impossiblity.

[noseybutt]

I'm in similar situation as @Coconut Flan. My corner of the US continues on with full abortion access. I have lived in other countries but partly why I am not interested in relocating at the moment is because of family, a job that does not translate to other states much less other countries, and the fact that authoritarianism is on the rise worldwide. It's not just the US that is teetering.

I think it's hard for many outsiders to understand how much power US states have (versus federal government). I'm not pointing fingers at you, @just_ordinary. It's just that what is happening in red states is very different than what is happening in blue states. We have relatives in a rural, very conservative part of their country and their day-to-day lives are very different compared to ours.

It's the increasing divide (political, economic, education, healthcare) that concerns me even more than abortion access alone--quite simply, our democracy is not going to survive unless there is a renewed social contract that encourages talking across the political guide (and firmly protecting basic human rights). 

Edited April 12 by noseybutt

[Ozlsn]

11 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

The people most affected are least likely to relocate overall. If crossing state lines to get an abortion is an insurmountable task, upping sticks for Switzerland say is an impossiblity.

I think it can also be difficult to see the level of poverty in some parts of the US from outside - well, difficult to see any country's poor from the outside to be honest, but when the external mythology is that Americans are all wealthy it can be a surprise to find out how many are living hand to mouth, and how many more are not far off (ditto Australia, UK, Western Europe). I was reading an article by an author who'd taken the bus across the US in place of flying, and one part that really stuck with me was a woman begging the bus driver to let her ride to the next city because she didn't have the fare (he shut the door in her face; the fare cost started from $33). 

The same things that stop people fleeing until it is desperate come into play here - my family, my business, the kids' schools, my home is here, and "there" is far away and unfamiliar - and starting again is hard. Also don't even think about it if you have a child with additional needs, or are over a certain age, or don't have a certain level of savings, an awful lot of places won't grant you a visa if they perceive you as potentially being a burden on the system. As always being educated, single or with no dependents is an advantage.

Edited April 12 by Ozlsn

[47of74]

A number of young men and women are saying fuck you to Republicans

Quote

An increasing number of young men and women have decided they never want parenthood in the wake of the Dobbs decision revoking the constitutional right to an abortion, a new study finds.

The number of young adults opting to undergo a permanent sterilization procedure abruptly increased nationwide following the June 2022 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court that overturned Roe v. Wade, researchers report April 12 in the journal JAMA Health Forum.

Young women in particular had twice the increased rate in tubal sterilizations compared to the rise in vasectomies among young men, researchers found.

“The major difference in patterns of these two procedures likely reflects the fact that young women are overwhelmingly responsible for preventing pregnancy and disproportionately experience the health, social and economic consequences of abortion bans,” said lead researcher Jacqueline Ellison. She's assistant professor of health policy and management at the University of Pittsburgh School of Public Health.

 

[noseybutt]

15 minutes ago, 47of74 said:

A number of young men and women are saying fuck you to Republicans

 

I think that is precisely the goal. Peel back some of the policy and IMO it is eugenics. As in---make the people who want abortions/sterilization leave the state. Leave the birthers behind.

[Xan]

It may be like the whole Roe v. Wade being overturned saga.  It might be what they thought they wanted but actually don't really want.  The birthers want women to stay in their places.  They also want workers and soldiers.  If you don't have women birthing babies, eventually your workers and soldiers numbers drop off.  If you don't have women willing to marry just anyone, you still don't have the little woman in the kitchen with your hot meal ready at the end of the day.  It turns out, she's rather be sterilized than be forced to marry and give birth.  They knew we hated their policies.  They just didn't realize how much we hated their policies.

[Ozlsn]

7 hours ago, Xan said:

The birthers want women to stay in their places.  They also want workers and soldiers.  If you don't have women birthing babies, eventually your workers and soldiers numbers drop off. 

I think this also plays into the idea that they can "out-breed" the left - we have more voters, so can control everything. This assumes of course that their children stay in the cult, which is never a given.

[47of74]

I'm single and the relationship boat has almost sailed.  I got snipped as soon as I could after the Dobbs decision.  Yeah, I know that they probably won't ban snipping but I wanted to do what I could. 

[GreyhoundFan]

What an asshole:

[Ozlsn]

How convenient that God forgave him. Could we have that in writing from God please?

[Smash!]

God has a different set of rules for white males. /sarcasm

[CTRLZero]

The Seattle Times published an article stating that Washington state is not immune from the old law that affected Arizona.  Here are a few excerpts explaining who’s trying to change the law:

By Naomi Ishisaka, Seattle Times columnist

….

“Project 25,” a group of conservative organizations led by the Heritage Foundation, is planning ahead for what they hope will be the next Republican administration. They created a 900-page set of plans called “Mandate for Leadership: The Conservative Promise” that lays out — among many other things — how they would rescind FDA approval of the abortion drug mifepristone and prosecute people who send abortion pills by mail using the Comstock Act, Vox reported last week.

Washington state has been a staunch defender of abortion rights, stockpiling mifepristone after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and passing multiple bills to protect abortion care patients and providers. 

As was widely predicted, abortions in Washington increased 23% in 2022, with patients seeking care from states that have effectively banned the procedure, like our neighbor Idaho and even Texas, Seattle Times journalist Alison Saldanha reported last year.

But if Project 25 and other abortion rights opponents get their way, Washington would not be immune from the impact of abortion restrictions that are causing horrendous suffering for women and pregnant people in other states. 

….