Reform and Conservative Judaism vs Orthodox

[Jewess]

There is no way to answer that without writing a lot and I'm too lazy and it's late. If push comes to shove, I'll refer you to Hillel's quote above.

How does that differ from any other humanitarian based religion, perhaps like Budhism, etc...?

The reason I ask is because, in my opinion, the essence of the religion of Judaism is that God gave us the Torah and its laws and expects us to follow it, and once you say "Do what you feel like doing and makes you feel connected" it doesn't seem like Judaism to me anymore...

[Phyllis Stein]

Coming back quickly before I go to bed. One quick way to sum up what it is to be a Jew is that it is more about what we do than what we feel.

And I interpret the relative importance of each of our actions differently than you.

The rest, I don't have the energy for. We could go around for days if not years on this and I doubt we will ever agree because we interpret the same information differently.

Edited for clarity

[defrauding]

Oh, I forgot to respond to something that caught my attention in the original post.

Orthodox Judaism just means Judaism as it was practiced until the "Enlightenment", vs the new schools of thoughts regarding Judaism. (That isn't to say that all Orthodox Judaism today is as it was always observed, but rather the basic premise of it remains what it always was, even if in practice there are variations.)

Have you read Haym Soloveitchik's "Rupture and Reconstruction: The Transformation of Contemporary Orthodoxy," by any chance? (He's a professor at Yeshiva University and the son of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik.) He argues that the very nature of Orthodox Judaism has changed because textual practice has completely supplanted mimetic practice. Here's an abstract and a link to the article:

The author asserts that contemporary Orthodox Jewish religion and practice has undergone a major and profound change in nature during his lifetime. Where observance of Jewish law was once organic and transmitted through family tradition as much as by text and rabbinic literature, it has now become disconnected from family practice and connected only to the written word, the author explains. He explores the contours, sources and implications of this shift as pertains to Jewish (especially Orthodox Jewish) culture, philosophy, spirituality, education and relationship to the surrounding world.

It's one of my favorite essays on Judaism, and well worth the read for anyone interested in the evolution of Orthodox Judaism. (In fact, I've seen it described as a "seminal" essay several times now.)

[lilah]

My Rabbi once told me (and i'm not sure if this was a urban myth) but in one of the earliest meetings of Rabbis who wanted to start a Reform movement the hotel banquet hall accidentally served pork. The rabbis who were offended and left later became the conservative movement but the Rabbis who stayed helped to create the reform movement.

Jewess- I've always thought that the essence of Judaism is tikkun olam

[Jewess]

Jewess- I've always thought that the essence of Judaism is tikkun olam

So interesting. I've never heard the phrase tikkun olam whatsoever in Orthodox circles aside for in some brief mentions in Hasidic texts... So I have a hard time believing that that itself is the essence of Judaism.

[2xx1xy1JD]

In Lurianic kabbalah, there is this idea that the world became "broken" when vessels containing the Divine light from different aspects of G-d were shattered. It's a really complex concept, but the take-away message is that there are Divine "sparks" all over the world, as well as "shells" that are hiding those sparks, so our task is to literally go around the world to remove those shells and expose all of those sparks, so that the world can be repaired.

This principle was adopted by Chabad Lubavitch, who take it very seriously. It explains why they will literally go around the world to find Jews, and get people to do any mitzvah (commandment). To them, it's another piece in the puzzle that when completed, will allow the arrival of the Messiah.

So yes, in the kabbalistic sense, repairing a broken world is very much our main task in the world. The difference is that Reform Jews don't necesarily study the whole long kabbalistic explanation, and that Reform Jews will often define the task of "repairing the world" in a very different way. Both may agree that tsunami relief in Japan and earthquake relief in Haiti qualify, but Reform is more likely to support liberal social causes while Chabad is more likely to support conservative ones - each doing so because they believe that it's the way to perfect the world.

[Jewess]

In Lurianic kabbalah, there is this idea that the world became "broken" when vessels containing the Divine light from different aspects of G-d were shattered. It's a really complex concept, but the take-away message is that there are Divine "sparks" all over the world, as well as "shells" that are hiding those sparks, so our task is to literally go around the world to remove those shells and expose all of those sparks, so that the world can be repaired.

This principle was adopted by Chabad Lubavitch, who take it very seriously. It explains why they will literally go around the world to find Jews, and get people to do any mitzvah (commandment). To them, it's another piece in the puzzle that when completed, will allow the arrival of the Messiah.

So yes, in the kabbalistic sense, repairing a broken world is very much our main task in the world. The difference is that Reform Jews don't necesarily study the whole long kabbalistic explanation, and that Reform Jews will often define the task of "repairing the world" in a very different way. Both may agree that tsunami relief in Japan and earthquake relief in Haiti qualify, but Reform is more likely to support liberal social causes while Chabad is more likely to support conservative ones - each doing so because they believe that it's the way to perfect the world.

Yea, I was aware of the chabad tikkun olam connection- thats the Hasidic texts I was referring to. I've never heard any non Chabad orthodox Jews ever mention the phrase tikun Olam.

[Beeks]

Dang it, I'm not nearly as good at spouting quotes as those missionaries, especially not with actual page references...

But theres a line in deuteronomy that says "The laws that I give you are for now and for all times, and if anyone comes and tells you you don't have to keep them, he is a false prophet and he shall be killed", or some other way of phrasing that exact sentence. This is exactly what is used as one of the main proofs against Christianity...

And as such, how do you reconcile "Well, those laws were written for long ago for a culture that was very different" with the fact that "These laws are for now and for all times"?

And especially because we precisely aren't given reasons for following the laws, why assume that kosher rules are for sanitary reasons, or things like that? Who said that those things don't apply nowadays as well because of our modern day FDA stuff and all that?

Because we aren't given reasons, we can speculate, but we can't say definitively that this is why we were commanded that; the reason we do things is because God said so, not because it makes sense to us per se.

I'm not emmie so I'm not answering for her, but personally (and from a conservative perspective) I think the laws themselves are still relevant and still apply today, they just apply in a different way. Modern technology didn't exist when the laws were given, so there is room for some interpretation, etc.

[emmiedahl]

I don't have time for a long reply, but basically ^^^^^ that. I also do not believe the Torah is always literal, which changes my perspective entirely. For example, I do not believe that the world was created in six days. I can love a document and see it as all I really have of a God that I love without believing it is a complete and completely accurate history document, kwim?

No one has told me not to keep laws, but merely to keep them in a way that is meaningful to me. I was raised in a secular household, so any laws I keep are a huge improvement even in the eyes of the Orthodox.

[Jewess]

I don't have time for a long reply, but basically ^^^^^ that. I also do not believe the Torah is always literal, which changes my perspective entirely. For example, I do not believe that the world was created in six days. I can love a document and see it as all I really have of a God that I love without believing it is a complete and completely accurate history document, kwim?

I hear you. Obviously I disagree with you as to whether or not the Torah is literal/accurate, but I can hear why you might feel the way you do. (Not that I believe the Tanach is literal 100% either. Only christian fundies believe that. But I do believe that the laws in it, as interpreted by the oral law, are accurate. I do think the Gemara and talmud, etc... are more literal than the tanach, thats for sure.

No one has told me not to keep laws, but merely to keep them in a way that is meaningful to me. I was raised in a secular household, so any laws I keep are a huge improvement even in the eyes of the Orthodox.

Oh for sure. Judaism isn't all or nothing. No one is a perfect Jew. Whatever you do do I'm sure is appreciated by God.

[Ralar]

Hey Buzzard, this might seem like an odd question, but what congregation are you referring to as the largest conservative one in the Atlanta metro area?

I suspect Buzzard is referring to AA -- Ahavat Achim. AA also more traditional services, but they do a "Friday night live" th attract younger folks.

Hey Buzzard, this might seem like an odd question, but what congregation are you referring to as the largest conservative one in the Atlanta metro area?

[lilah]

So yes, in the kabbalistic sense, repairing a broken world is very much our main task in the world. The difference is that Reform Jews don't necesarily study the whole long kabbalistic explanation, and that Reform Jews will often define the task of "repairing the world" in a very different way. Both may agree that tsunami relief in Japan and earthquake relief in Haiti qualify, but Reform is more likely to support liberal social causes while Chabad is more likely to support conservative ones - each doing so because they believe that it's the way to perfect the world.

Yes and yes. I have attended reform congregations and most of them were believers in some extant to social justice so there were a lot of Sunday school activities surrounding missions of social justice such as helping out in soup kitchens, food shelters etc. We all brought in tzedakah and had to vote on which charities should get our money. We were taught that by performing mitvah and g'milut chasadim (acts of love and kindness) you were helping to heal the broken world. We'd study Maimonides' 8 Levels of Charity so you could better understand what were the better and the very best ways to give.

[2xx1xy1JD]

On the main question:

1. There's a difference between official positions of a movement, and the actual observance of people within a movement.

In recent years, there's been a trend toward more traditional observance by some in Reform, and the official position of that movement is "whatever floats your boat" (paraphrasing, obviously).

Historically, the Conservative movement was actually far more focused on Jewish law and observance, but just had a different process than the Orthodox for deciding Jewish legal issues. There has been a shift left-ward in recent years with the movement becoming increasingly egalitarian and a bit more gay-positive, but it's still possible to find serious Conservative Jews (including some close friends of mine) who take the official positions seriously, and they tend to look a lot like Modern Orthodox Jews and can tell you exactly why they do X or don't do Y. The majority, however, happen to identify with Conservative Judaism because it's in the middle - they like tradition, but don't want to be super-observant.

2. All the main movements today recognize the Oral Law (Talmud). The only exceptions are Karaites, Samaritans and any Ethiopian communities that haven't assimilated into the rest of the Jewish community. The difference is in how it is viewed. Non-Orthodox will see a discussion in the Gemara as just that - a discussion between ancient Sages. It will be quoted and respected and analyzed, but won't necessarily be considered to be something that had been dictated by G-d at Mount Sinai.

3. Orthodoxy has also gone through changes, sometimes in reaction to the other movements. One of the main differences with the other movements is in the role of traditional custom, which is considered binding even if it isn't based on religious text. Another thing is that some issues become so politicized that any objective analysis of what the actual traditional texts say becomes nearly impossible. The question of whether women can become rabbis is a clear example - when Rabbi Avi Weiss (who is on the very left-wing side of Modern Orthodox, but still Orthodox) said that there was nothing in Jewish law preventing this, there was a huge uproar. It wasn't based on "but this clearly goes against the Torah or Talmud", but rather, "this isn't our traditional practice, and it's what the non-Orthodox do".

[pomology]

That's what I figured. My extended family goes or used to go to Ahavat Achim. I'm not sure how many of them actually go on even a remotely regular basis anymore, but still. I also heard that my brother who is going to grade school down there is thinking of joining.