Reform and Conservative Judaism vs Orthodox

[Jewess]

As an Orthodox Jew, I was wondering if the conservative or reform Jews here (or any other denominations of Judaism, or people that just are in the know) can explain to me the concept of Conservative and Reform Judaism.

 

From what I know, Orthodox Judaism was never a concept until the "Enlightenment" with Moses Mendelson where he started the Reform? Conservative? movement of Judaism. Before that, there was just Judaism, and people who didn't keep Judaism. But there weren't people who kept Judaism differently beforehand, it just was Judaism vs not practicing Judaism. Orthodox Judaism just means Judaism as it was practiced until the "Enlightenment", vs the new schools of thoughts regarding Judaism. (That isn't to say that all Orthodox Judaism today is as it was always observed, but rather the basic premise of it remains what it always was, even if in practice there are variations.)

 

 

In another thread, someone said the difference between the different branches of Judaism is that Orthodox Jews believe that God gave the Torah to Moses and the Jews, and the laws in the Torah, both the written (Tanach) and the Oral Torah (Talmud), are binding, and we must keep them.

Conservative finds the laws binding, but more open to interpretation, and reform doesn't consider the laws binding, you just do what speaks to you and helps you feel close to God.

 

So can I ask people- do conservative and reform jews believe in the Oral Torah at all? Do they hold that it is just as holy/binding/important as the written Torah (Tanach)?

What does it mean that conservative Jews interpret the Torah laws differently? Can you explain to me in what ways this would be so, and what was the reason behind these different (and I assume more lax) interpretations?

 

And also, why does Reform Judaism feel that Torah laws aren't binding, and we aren't obligated to keep them all?

And how is that so different from Christians believing you don't have to keep the laws in the Old Testament because Jesus fulfilled the law, and to just keep what speaks to you?

 

Thanks! I'm not asking to mock, I'm asking because I'm honestly an ignoramus about all branches of Judaism other than Orthodox, and if I asked Orthodox people the difference, I'd obviously get a very biased answer, because obviously Orthodox Jews don't believe Reform or Conservative Judaism is the correct way of serving God, or they'd be doing it themselves.

 

And also, whats Egalitarian? Reconstructionist? Or any of the other sects? Where do they fit on the "spectrum"?

 

And also- why does Reform Judaism feel that you're Jewish if your father is a Jew even if your mom isn't? Where is their basis for coming up with that?

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am a non pracitcing Jew. My parents identified as Conservative. However, I received no formal religious training. We celebrated major holidays in a way that would not suit an Orthodox person. My children did have religious training in the Reform tradition.

I cannot answer your questions from a scriptural point of view. I will tell you that my parents told me that Consevative Jews like to have an Orthodox Rabbi so they feel less guilty about not following the rules! It was meant to be funny, but there is truth in that.

Ultimately, Jews are a pragmatic people. The Talmud is all about interpretting and reinterpretting scripture to fit into an ever changing environment. Since then, there have been other scholars who have continued to interpret and reinterpret the Torah as things have continued to change. It is about survival as a people. Ultimately, that is the answer to your last question, which is really the biggest question of all. Who is a Jew? You can probably find the scriptural gymnastics required to allow patrilineal descent on the internet. This has been the only unbridgeable divide between the various traditions. I can only give you a secular and pragmatic answer.

My mother and all of the mothers before her have been Jewish. As a non-practicing Jew, I need to do nothing but begin to practice in the Orthodox tradition to be accepted by your community as a Jew. (Or as a citizen of Israel) The pragmatic reason for matrilineal descent is that motherhod could be verified, but fatherhood could only be surmised. It also gave legitimacy to children born of rape to Jewish women. Today, we can verify paternity. The pragmatic value of only seeing the mother as a valid ancestor has disappeared. Then there is the problem of diminishing numbers. By welcoming children born to non-Jewish mothers who have Jewish fathers, there is less of a barrier for these children to identify with Judaism. The burden of these children to go through formal conversion in addition to the things they need to do to function in modern western society ended up with a huge attrition of folks who might otherwise embrace Judaism.

I am aware that I have answered your question without actually answering your question. I am Jewish after all. And that is what we do.

[pomology]

As an Orthodox Jew, I was wondering if the conservative or reform Jews here (or any other denominations of Judaism, or people that just are in the know) can explain to me the concept of Conservative and Reform Judaism.

From what I know, Orthodox Judaism was never a concept until the "Enlightenment" with Moses Mendelson where he started the Reform? Conservative? movement of Judaism. Before that, there was just Judaism, and people who didn't keep Judaism. But there weren't people who kept Judaism differently beforehand, it just was Judaism vs not practicing Judaism. Orthodox Judaism just means Judaism as it was practiced until the "Enlightenment", vs the new schools of thoughts regarding Judaism. (That isn't to say that all Orthodox Judaism today is as it was always observed, but rather the basic premise of it remains what it always was, even if in practice there are variations.)

In another thread, someone said the difference between the different branches of Judaism is that Orthodox Jews believe that God gave the Torah to Moses and the Jews, and the laws in the Torah, both the written (Tanach) and the Oral Torah (Talmud), are binding, and we must keep them.

Conservative finds the laws binding, but more open to interpretation, and reform doesn't consider the laws binding, you just do what speaks to you and helps you feel close to God.

So can I ask people- do conservative and reform jews believe in the Oral Torah at all? Do they hold that it is just as holy/binding/important as the written Torah (Tanach)?

What does it mean that conservative Jews interpret the Torah laws differently? Can you explain to me in what ways this would be so, and what was the reason behind these different (and I assume more lax) interpretations?

And also, why does Reform Judaism feel that Torah laws aren't binding, and we aren't obligated to keep them all?

And how is that so different from Christians believing you don't have to keep the laws in the Old Testament because Jesus fulfilled the law, and to just keep what speaks to you?

Thanks! I'm not asking to mock, I'm asking because I'm honestly an ignoramus about all branches of Judaism other than Orthodox, and if I asked Orthodox people the difference, I'd obviously get a very biased answer, because obviously Orthodox Jews don't believe Reform or Conservative Judaism is the correct way of serving God, or they'd be doing it themselves.

And also, whats Egalitarian? Reconstructionist? Or any of the other sects? Where do they fit on the "spectrum"?

And also- why does Reform Judaism feel that you're Jewish if your father is a Jew even if your mom isn't? Where is their basis for coming up with that?

I can't talk for Reform Jews, because I'm not one, but I can talk for Conservative Jews. Yes, we do think that the Oral Torah is just as important as the Tanach. However, we don't necessarily believe that it was given at Sinai (or, necessarily that anything was given at Sinai other than the Ten Commandments). But, yes, we do think the Oral Torah is important.

I thought the best way to demonstrate what I meant by more lax interpretation of halacha would be to link to actual responsa written by Conservative rabbis, but since the USCJ website seems to be incredibly slow, I'm not going to do that. Basically, I'll put it this way with the most simple issue I can think of, kashrut. Orthodoxy thinks kashrut is incredibly important and keeps it very, very strictly, only eating certain hechshers and never eating in a restaurant that is not 100% certified kosher. Conservative Jews also think that kashrut is very important. However, they may be more lax about what hechshers they eat or will eat things that are theoretically kosher without hechshers. Generally, though, they refrain from mixing milk and meat, many still have separate sets of dishes (we do at my house, anyway) will eat out in restaurants, as long as they are not eating anything explicitly not kosher--for example my family does not eat meat out, but we are fine eating vegetarian food out. And my parents eat fish out, but because I don't ever eat fish, I don't. Reform Jews don't care about kashrut. Or at least, the institution of Reform Jewry does not care about kashrut. At the first graduation of the Reform rabbinical seminary in the United States they had what is known as the Treifah Banquet where they basically at a bunch of kinds of treif. And even though I knew about that, I was shocked when I went to a Reform synagogue this summer (because I was lonely and wanted to meet any Jews around) and they were serving a meal with both milk and meat. Anyway, I hope that is at least vaguely helpful.

Egalitarianism basically holds that women can do everything men can--be a rabbi, have an aliyah, wear tallitot, teffilin, and kippahs, lead every part of services, etc. Many Conservative synagogues are egalitarian, although some aren't.

And I'll just link the Wikipedia of Reconstructionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism because I feel like that is really the only way to explain it, as I am not Reconstructionist but AFAIK there are no Reconstructionists on the forum to better explain it. Basically, the founder of Reconstructionism, Mordechai Kaplan, received Orthodox smicha, then taught at the (Conservative) Jewish Theological Seminary and then went off and did his own thing based on Conservative Judaism, but basically eliminating God from the equation. I don't know. It's hard to explain. He was excommunicated by Orthodox Rabbis, though.

[FaustianSlip]

Well, I can't speak to Reform, because some of the questions you ask are part of the reason I opted to convert Conservative. With regard to Conservative Judaism, the official answer is that yes, the Torah (both Oral and Written) is still considered binding. In my experience, the Rabbinical Assembly tends in its teshuvot to try and find ways to allow things rather than find ways to forbid things. The most salient example is that controversial teshuva about driving on Shabbos. I think there are a number of leaders in the movement who, looking back, might have opted not to allow it, in retrospect, because it's definitely made it more difficult to build Conservative communities, rather than just have Conservative shuls where people show up a couple of times a week.

That said, I personally know a fairly significant number of Conservative Jews whose practice could easily be characterized as Modern Orthodox, but for the fact that they attend a Conservative shul. My own rabbi would fall into that category. My synagogue in the States had daily minyanim, Talmud classes, an increasing number of people looking to buy houses in the residential area surrounding the synagogue in order to allow them to be in walking distance, more and more people starting to keep kosher.... It was definitely a community where increased observance was respected and encouraged; that was part of the reason I decided to attend there, actually, and chose that rabbi. I have met Conservative rabbis who lean much, much more Reform, which doesn't thrill me. The rabbi who taught an Intro to Judaism class I took was very liberal, advocated doing more of the service in English and cutting some things out to make it more "accessible" for people who were trying to return to Judaism, which bothered me a lot. He was not on my beit din, but if he had been, I would have been a little freaked out. I mean, I don't claim to be shomer mitzvot, at this point, but to me, as a Conservative Jew, the impetus is there to strive to be and work to grow in my observance and my understanding of Torah.

The question of "What's egalitarian?" is a source of much debate, actually. This blog had an interesting post discussing some of the issues. Usually, if I say I want an "egalitarian" davening environment, I mean an environment in which women have the option to wear a tallit or lay tefillin if they choose to do so, in which they are allowed to lead services and/or leyn Torah and in which they're counted towards the minyan. Some people argue that if you don't add the Imahot in the Amidah or use gender-neutral prayer language that you're not really egalitarian, but I find all of that a little too crunchy granola for my taste. Plus, as someone who currently davens half in English and half in Hebrew, avoiding gendered pronouns when referring to God gets very confusing and grammatically silly. So there's that.

There was someone who alluded on another blog to forsaking their Conservative credentials because they don't mind davening with a mechitza, but I don't personally think a mechitza, in and of itself, is problematic. For one thing, there are still some Traditional Conservative shuls that use a mechitza and for another, I've definitely davened in places that employed a mechitza with no problem. It's all in how it's implemented, for me. If I'm crammed into a tiny space that's a fire hazard while people are just hanging out chatting around me, that's not cool, but I recently watched the latest Maccabeats video, and in the synagogue they show at the end, I thought that mechitza was awesome, and it wouldn't bother me at all. My only gripe is that often, I'm the only one, or one of, like, three people in the women's section, which is kind of a drag. Anyway, yeah. I would be totally prepared to regularly attend a synagogue with a mechitza if women were allowed to lead the service, receive aliyot and/or leyn Torah occasionally. I'm also aware that some of my bias in this direction may be the result of an Episcopalian upbringing, which is a denomination that also emphasizes womens' participation.

Oh! Another big thing is that when the Conservative Rabbinical Assembly rules on an issue, they issue majority and minority opinions, but Conservative shuls are free to follow either opinion at their discretion. So if a shul wants to follow a more restrictive opinion, they can set that as the community standard. Another difference between Conservative and Reform is that while Conservative Judaism has made some changes to the siddur (the big ones that come to mind are taking out "Thank you for not making me a Gentile" and "Thank you for not making me a woman" and replacing them with "Thank you for making me a Jew" and "Thank you for making me in your image"), it's still virtually the same as most of the Orthodox siddurim I've used. It's not that unusual for people at morning minyan to daven with Orthodox siddurim- I use Koren Sacks, myself, when the mood takes me, and it's pretty much identical to what's in my Conservative prayerbook. By contrast, Reform has stripped down a number of prayers and excised others completely. Reform services are also much more English-heavy. I know so little about Reconstructionism that I can't really comment on it intelligently.

[Jewess]

Basically, I'll put it this way with the most simple issue I can think of, kashrut. Orthodoxy thinks kashrut is incredibly important and keeps it very, very strictly, only eating certain hechshers and never eating in a restaurant that is not 100% certified kosher. Conservative Jews also think that kashrut is very important. However, they may be more lax about what hechshers they eat or will eat things that are theoretically kosher without hechshers. Generally, though, they refrain from mixing milk and meat, many still have separate sets of dishes (we do at my house, anyway) will eat out in restaurants, as long as they are not eating anything explicitly not kosher--for example my family does not eat meat out, but we are fine eating vegetarian food out. And my parents eat fish out, but because I don't ever eat fish, I don't.

If conservative believes that halacha is binding, do they hold there is any validity to the prohibition of eating bugs? If so, do conservative people check their veggies to make sure they don't have any bugs? If so, why would they not be concerned about eating out in a place that doesn't check for bugs? And in case you're wondering, I'm not talking about difficult to see microscopic bugs, I'm talking for example, about things like aphids that are at least sesame seed sized and are visible to the naked eye, which I routinely find on my greens.

If conservative people don't make sure their foods don't have bugs, don't hold that eating bugs is a sin (even though its written in the tanach 7 times! that eating bugs is a sin), why not?

Does conservative Judaism see anything wrong with eating foods cooked bishul akum? If not, why not, as this is written straight out in the Talmud? Does conservative Judaism see anything wrong with eating foods cooked in pots where non kosher foods have been cooked previously? If not, why not, as it is written very clearly in the talmud about that prohibition?

If yes to either of those, why are these not considered to be issues when "eating vegetarian out of the house"?

[Jewess]

That said, I personally know a fairly significant number of Conservative Jews whose practice could easily be characterized as Modern Orthodox, but for the fact that they attend a Conservative shul. My own rabbi would fall into that category.

In my community growing up, the local conservative synagogue's rabbi was definitely able to be categorized as Modern Orthodox. And in my modern orthodox sleep away camp, there were some campers there from conservative homes, but I honestly wouldn't be able to differentiate them from the MO kids. And in my post high school modern Orthodox seminary that I attended, there was a girl there from a conservative home that was no different from the modern orthodox girls other than the fact that she put on tefillin, which even according to Orthodox Judaism isn't forbidden, it's just not considered a good idea because once you start putting on tefillin daily, it would be a sin to stop it, and if you're not required to wear tefillin because you're female, its not a good idea to create more religious requirements for you...

My synagogue in the States had daily minyanim, Talmud classes, an increasing number of people looking to buy houses in the residential area surrounding the synagogue in order to allow them to be in walking distance, more and more people starting to keep kosher.... It was definitely a community where increased observance was respected and encouraged; that was part of the reason I decided to attend there, actually, and chose that rabbi. I have met Conservative rabbis who lean much, much more Reform, which doesn't thrill me. The rabbi who taught an Intro to Judaism class I took was very liberal, advocated doing more of the service in English and cutting some things out to make it more "accessible" for people who were trying to return to Judaism, which bothered me a lot. He was not on my beit din, but if he had been, I would have been a little freaked out. I mean, I don't claim to be shomer mitzvot, at this point, but to me, as a Conservative Jew, the impetus is there to strive to be and work to grow in my observance and my understanding of Torah.

So my question is- if conservative Judaism says you are required to keep the mitzvot, even if a looser interpretation of it, would someone who decides not to keep those mitzvot, decides not to keep kosher or shabbat, even a loose version of it, would they be considered an official conservative Jew, or just someone who ascribes to conservative philisophy but isn't following conservative religious requirements/practice? I mean, there are people who attend orthodox synagogues who aren't Torah observant, but they value Orthodoxy and its rules even if they don't necessarily keep them, but those people wouldn't be described as Orthodox Jews. Is it the same with conservative Jews? Or is it as long as you agree with conservative philosophy/view of Jewish law, etc... it doesn't matter what you actually are currently doing, you're still conservative?

[pomology]

If conservative believes that halacha is binding, do they hold there is any validity to the prohibition of eating bugs? If so, do conservative people check their veggies to make sure they don't have any bugs? If so, why would they not be concerned about eating out in a place that doesn't check for bugs? And in case you're wondering, I'm not talking about difficult to see microscopic bugs, I'm talking for example, about things like aphids that are at least sesame seed sized and are visible to the naked eye, which I routinely find on my greens.

If conservative people don't make sure their foods don't have bugs, don't hold that eating bugs is a sin (even though its written in the tanach 7 times! that eating bugs is a sin), why not?

Does conservative Judaism see anything wrong with eating foods cooked bishul akum? If not, why not, as this is written straight out in the Talmud? Does conservative Judaism see anything wrong with eating foods cooked in pots where non kosher foods have been cooked previously? If not, why not, as it is written very clearly in the talmud about that prohibition?

If yes to either of those, why are these not considered to be issues when "eating vegetarian out of the house"?

I have no idea about bugs. Except that I think most people would check for bugs because they find the thought of eating bugs revolting.

As for your other questions, just because Conservative Judaism holds the Oral Torah as binding does not mean we adhere to it strictly. I don't know enough about the specifics of the responsa of the USCJ to answer more specifically.

Also, as far as non-kosher food being cooked in pots. In my own home (if, you know, I'm lucky enough to ever find a job and have my own home, although I do currently have my own pots and pans and I am following this with them) I want pots and pans that are completely and totally kosher. Inside my home, I want to follow a certain standard of kashrut. Outside of my home, I care far less (although, again, I wouldn't eat bacon or whatever or even meat, but since i pretty much only eat meat in my parents' home, anyway...). I'm a modern person living in a modern world and for that reason I will eat things outside of my house as long as they are not violating the basic premises of kashrut (although, again, because I'm basically vegetarian, anyway, this doesn't really affect what I'm willing to eat). Inside my home, which would be my own Jewish sphere, I am open to being much more strict and adhering to halacha more closely, because it doesn't affect my modern life as a modern person and I like keeping halacha when I can. Also, I would also be really highly uncomfortable if my shul didn't have a kosher kitchen.

[Jewess]

Then there is the problem of diminishing numbers. By welcoming children born to non-Jewish mothers who have Jewish fathers, there is less of a barrier for these children to identify with Judaism.

It also works the other way around. If intermarriage is considered fine, and children with a Jewish dad and non Jewish mother are commonplace, and there's no finite "you're a jew, no matter what you personally feel, because your mom is a jew", then the kid might feel ready to embrace Judaism, but might decide to embrace any other religion, the religion of his mom perhaps. And if intermarriage isn't discouraged, then kids that are halachically Jewish because their mom is a Jew, might be raised in a dual religion home, and then decide Christianity appeals to him more than Judaism, or that he needs neither religion. Which would decrease the number of Jews, not increase.

[Jewess]

I have no idea about bugs. Except that I think most people would check for bugs because they find the thought of eating bugs revolting.

Do you, when making a salad, go through each piece of lettuce and make sure no bugs are on it? Or spinach? If not, there's a good chance you ate lots of bugs in your lifetime, because there are lots of bugs on there. Yea, most people wouldn't eat stuff knowingly that is infested or swarming with bugs, but if you don't check, you very well may be eating lots of bugs. And I never heard of any restaurants or people that aren't Orthodox that actually check each individual leaf of something for bugs.

As for your other questions, just because Conservative Judaism holds the Oral Torah as binding does not mean we adhere to it strictly. I don't know enough about the specifics of the responsa of the USCJ to answer more specifically.

Also, as far as non-kosher food being cooked in pots. In my own home (if, you know, I'm lucky enough to ever find a job and have my own home, although I do currently have my own pots and pans and I am following this with them) I want pots and pans that are completely and totally kosher. Inside my home, I want to follow a certain standard of kashrut. Outside of my home, I care far less (although, again, I wouldn't eat bacon or whatever or even meat, but since i pretty much only eat meat in my parents' home, anyway...). I'm a modern person living in a modern world and for that reason I will eat things outside of my house as long as they are not violating the basic premises of kashrut (although, again, because I'm basically vegetarian, anyway, this doesn't really affect what I'm willing to eat). Inside my home, which would be my own Jewish sphere, I am open to being much more strict and adhering to halacha more closely, because it doesn't affect my modern life as a modern person and I like keeping halacha when I can. Also, I would also be really highly uncomfortable if my shul didn't have a kosher kitchen.

Does conservative Judaism say "Keep halacha when you can, when it suits you?" Or does it say you have to keep halacha all the time, and those who aren't, aren't evil, but aren't doing the correct thing either?

[pomology]

So my question is- if conservative Judaism says you are required to keep the mitzvot, even if a looser interpretation of it, would someone who decides not to keep those mitzvot, decides not to keep kosher or shabbat, even a loose version of it, would they be considered an official conservative Jew, or just someone who ascribes to conservative philisophy but isn't following conservative religious requirements/practice? I mean, there are people who attend orthodox synagogues who aren't Torah observant, but they value Orthodoxy and its rules even if they don't necessarily keep them, but those people wouldn't be described as Orthodox Jews. Is it the same with conservative Jews? Or is it as long as you agree with conservative philosophy/view of Jewish law, etc... it doesn't matter what you actually are currently doing, you're still conservative?

If a person belonged to a Conservative synagogue they would be considered a Conservative Jew, as far as I understand it. However, the synagogue itself would be held to certain standards and if it were not following them, it would not be able to affiliate Conservatively, I think.

I don't know. I went to a Conservative Jewish Day School and a Conservative sleepaway camp. Both institution kept halacha rather strictly, but that didn't mean that everybody who attended them did. Although most people who attended them did keep halacha to some degree. There were actually a few MO people at my Conservative Jewish day school. I think it is because our school had a much stronger Hebrew program than the local yeshivas, but I'm not sure. I certainly went to a few bnai mitzvot at Orthodox shuls etc. And one of my former classmates (who I didn't even realize was Ortho) now goes to YU. Being Conservative is a very complicated category. If it helps, I consider myself Conservative, because I'd rather daven in a Conservative shul and send my children to Conservative schools than any other category. I am far more comfortable in an Orthodox environment than in a Reform one. But I also have a lot of problems with Orthodoxy (not the least of which is that women cannot be counted in minyans, have aliyot etc.) and wouldn't want to live an Orthodox lifestyle. But that doesn't mean that implementing Judaism and halachah in my daily life is not important. It is and it certainly effects how I act. And that is why I am a Conservative Jew.

[pomology]

Do you, when making a salad, go through each piece of lettuce and make sure no bugs are on it? Or spinach? If not, there's a good chance you ate lots of bugs in your lifetime, because there are lots of bugs on there. Yea, most people wouldn't eat stuff knowingly that is infested or swarming with bugs, but if you don't check, you very well may be eating lots of bugs. And I never heard of any restaurants or people that aren't Orthodox that actually check each individual leaf of something for bugs.

Does conservative Judaism say "Keep halacha when you can, when it suits you?" Or does it say you have to keep halacha all the time, and those who aren't, aren't evil, but aren't doing the correct thing either?

Since I don't tend to eat lettuce and Spinach and have never prepared it on my own, I can't answer the first question.

As for the second, the official position of the Conservative movement, if I am not mistaken, is that you have to keep halacha all the time and those who aren't aren't evil but aren't doing the correct thing either. But that doesn't mean that Conservative Jews individually don't pick and choose what they follow. And there obviously isn't the tight-knit, keeping other Jews in check feel of Orthodox communities, either. So it's much easier to get away with picking and choosing. But the movement itself holds all halacha all the time.

[Jewess]

As for the second, the official position of the Conservative movement, if I am not mistaken, is that you have to keep halacha all the time and those who aren't aren't evil but aren't doing the correct thing either. But that doesn't mean that Conservative Jews individually don't pick and choose what they follow. And there obviously isn't the tight-knit, keeping other Jews in check feel of Orthodox communities, either. So it's much easier to get away with picking and choosing. But the movement itself holds all halacha all the time.

Lol lest you think this is something unique to the conservative movement, there are quite a lot of orthodox Jews that also pick and choose. That goes against what Orthodox Judaism believes, and we do believe that people will need to give an accounting to God why they did what they did... but people still pick and choose.

Its not called being conservative or orthodox, its called being a human and therefore fallible.

[defrauding]

Do you, when making a salad, go through each piece of lettuce and make sure no bugs are on it? Or spinach? If not, there's a good chance you ate lots of bugs in your lifetime, because there are lots of bugs on there. Yea, most people wouldn't eat stuff knowingly that is infested or swarming with bugs, but if you don't check, you very well may be eating lots of bugs. And I never heard of any restaurants or people that aren't Orthodox that actually check each individual leaf of something for bugs.

When you talk about checking the lettuce for bugs, do you mean performing a quick visual inspection of the leaves? If so, most people do that these days, whether they're Jewish or not.

Or do you mean buying a $44.95 light board specifically for checking produce and making sure that you follow all the guidelines in the Orthodox Union's $9.99 guide to checking for insects -- oh, yes, and watching their 45-minute video? If so, only a small number of Jewish people do this, and there are plenty of observant Jews who find the practice preposterous.

Edited to fix a minor mistake.

[FlorenceHamilton]

It also works the other way around. If intermarriage is considered fine, and children with a Jewish dad and non Jewish mother are commonplace, and there's no finite "you're a jew, no matter what you personally feel, because your mom is a jew", then the kid might feel ready to embrace Judaism, but might decide to embrace any other religion, the religion of his mom perhaps. And if intermarriage isn't discouraged, then kids that are halachically Jewish because their mom is a Jew, might be raised in a dual religion home, and then decide Christianity appeals to him more than Judaism, or that he needs neither religion. Which would decrease the number of Jews, not increase.

Which is why i identified this point as a key difference between branches of Judaism. I am personally caught in a position where I seriously doubt the existance of any deity at all, which of course makes the finer points of following the commandments moot, and the fact that I still strongly identify as a Jew. I can live with the cognitive dissonance.

[Jewess]

When you talk about checking the lettuce for bugs, do you mean performing a quick visual inspection of the leaves? If so, most people do that these days, whether they're Jewish or not.

Or do you mean buying a $44.95 light board specifically for checking produce and making sure that you follow all the guidelines in the Orthodox Union's $9.99 guide to checking for insects -- oh, yes, and watching their accompanying 45-minute video? If so, only a small number of Jewish people do this, and there are plenty of observant Jews who find the practice preposterous.

Lol, no, I don't mean wth a special light board. I mean though holding up each leaf individually and at least doing a cursory inspection of both sides of the leaf to ensure there are no bugs. For a leaf of romain lettuce, this takes me 1-2 seconds per side, and I do it relatively quickly comparatively.

[Buzzard]

There's also a HUGE difference between regional conservative/reform temples. Down here in Atlana the conservative prayerbook has english transliterations at the largest congregation in the metro. The friday night services feature a monthly rock band and vodka with a significant amount in english. In new york they wouldnt even touch that at a reform temple.

To me, the reform temples (or conservative in the ATL) meet my needs. I want to be able to sit with my relatives at services when I go. I respect those that keep kosher, but need a Rabbi that will not lecture me when I have taco bell wrappers in my car. I understand that many of the rules were put in place to keep the food system safe (kind of like a godly FDA), but that they may be a bit outdated.

My mother does not believe in God. I think I believe in some sort of cosmic justice but I'm not sure if its a single being. I'd be happy if its sort of like the Q's in star trek where there are many omnipotent beings. I find that the reform temples adhere more to the jewish culture and traditions rather than the commandments, and I like that.

Would have written more but my nails are wet!

[Phyllis Stein]

"Do not unto your neighbor what you would not have him do until you; this is the whole Law; the rest is commentary."

[emmiedahl]

As a reform Jew, I definitely respect oral Torah. However, since I don't keep all of the written laws, obviously I do not keep all of the oral Torah.

I love Judaism and I love Torah as much as any Orthodox Jew. The difference, I guess, is that I see the laws as being written very long ago for a culture that was very different. I am observant for a reform Jew because I find that the laws are very meaningful for me on a personal level, but some other Jew might see things differently and I won't fault them for it.

I would feel uncomfortable in a temple or community that considered me 'less than' because of my gender. I know that the reasons for gender differences in Judaism are much more complicated than that, but I would still feel very much 'less than'. Also, I am the product of a mixed marriage, as was my mother, and I am in a mixed marriage as well. I wonder if I would be able to document my Jewishness enough for an Orthodox synagogue. Like, my grandma used to talk about her parents' ketubah, but that was on another continent so I don't think I could dig it up. And my grandma married a half Jew/half Mennonite (no ketubah, they were not practicing Jews) and my mother married a Christian/agnostic. My family is very Jewish in culture despite the non-Jewish fathers. I think this may be the other reason behind the matrilineal nature of Judaism--children are taught about religion by their mothers, and those mothers also set the pace for daily life, choose foods and clothing, etc. Reform Jews have no problem with the mishegas I just described, but Orthodox Jews would be appalled, and acceptance within my religious community is important to me.

[ilovetchotchkes]

As a reform Jew, I definitely respect oral Torah. However, since I don't keep all of the written laws, obviously I do not keep all of the oral Torah.

I love Judaism and I love Torah as much as any Orthodox Jew. The difference, I guess, is that I see the laws as being written very long ago for a culture that was very different. I am observant for a reform Jew because I find that the laws are very meaningful for me on a personal level, but some other Jew might see things differently and I won't fault them for it.

I would feel uncomfortable in a temple or community that considered me 'less than' because of my gender. I know that the reasons for gender differences in Judaism are much more complicated than that, but I would still feel very much 'less than'. Also, I am the product of a mixed marriage, as was my mother, and I am in a mixed marriage as well. I wonder if I would be able to document my Jewishness enough for an Orthodox synagogue. Like, my grandma used to talk about her parents' ketubah, but that was on another continent so I don't think I could dig it up. And my grandma married a half Jew/half Mennonite (no ketubah, they were not practicing Jews) and my mother married a Christian/agnostic. My family is very Jewish in culture despite the non-Jewish fathers. I think this may be the other reason behind the matrilineal nature of Judaism--children are taught about religion by their mothers, and those mothers also set the pace for daily life, choose foods and clothing, etc. Reform Jews have no problem with the mishegas I just described, but Orthodox Jews would be appalled, and acceptance within my religious community is important to me.

THIS all the way. THIS.

[pomology]

There's also a HUGE difference between regional conservative/reform temples. Down here in Atlana the conservative prayerbook has english transliterations at the largest congregation in the metro. The friday night services feature a monthly rock band and vodka with a significant amount in english. In new york they wouldnt even touch that at a reform temple.

To me, the reform temples (or conservative in the ATL) meet my needs. I want to be able to sit with my relatives at services when I go. I respect those that keep kosher, but need a Rabbi that will not lecture me when I have taco bell wrappers in my car. I understand that many of the rules were put in place to keep the food system safe (kind of like a godly FDA), but that they may be a bit outdated.

My mother does not believe in God. I think I believe in some sort of cosmic justice but I'm not sure if its a single being. I'd be happy if its sort of like the Q's in star trek where there are many omnipotent beings. I find that the reform temples adhere more to the jewish culture and traditions rather than the commandments, and I like that.

Would have written more but my nails are wet!

Hey Buzzard, this might seem like an odd question, but what congregation are you referring to as the largest conservative one in the Atlanta metro area?

[pomology]

"Do not unto your neighbor what you would not have him do until you; this is the whole Law; the rest is commentary."

Yeah, I really like that quote. Hillel ftw.

[Jewess]

I love Judaism and I love Torah as much as any Orthodox Jew. The difference, I guess, is that I see the laws as being written very long ago for a culture that was very different. I am observant for a reform Jew because I find that the laws are very meaningful for me on a personal level, but some other Jew might see things differently and I won't fault them for it.

Dang it, I'm not nearly as good at spouting quotes as those missionaries, especially not with actual page references...

But theres a line in deuteronomy that says "The laws that I give you are for now and for all times, and if anyone comes and tells you you don't have to keep them, he is a false prophet and he shall be killed", or some other way of phrasing that exact sentence. This is exactly what is used as one of the main proofs against Christianity...

And as such, how do you reconcile "Well, those laws were written for long ago for a culture that was very different" with the fact that "These laws are for now and for all times"?

And especially because we precisely aren't given reasons for following the laws, why assume that kosher rules are for sanitary reasons, or things like that? Who said that those things don't apply nowadays as well because of our modern day FDA stuff and all that?

Because we aren't given reasons, we can speculate, but we can't say definitively that this is why we were commanded that; the reason we do things is because God said so, not because it makes sense to us per se.

[Phyllis Stein]

This is a good quick overview of the differences between the movements. I believe it will answer your questions.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reform-Judai ... thodox.htm

I was raised Conservative. The congregation was very close to Orthodox, with the main difference being that women and men sat together. It took 10 years of studying and trying before the rabbi would allow my mother's conversion to take place. I learned Hebrew and all the rules but I observed and felt very little spirituality. I saw a lot of judging of others as to how closely they were following the rules. I saw whispering and sneering about the people (mostly older) who were seen driving and parking their cars close to the synagogue for Shabbat services.

Judaism has changed and adapted over the years depending on location and other factors. Today we have several main movements and differing groups within each faction. I am amazed at the variety of interpretation of the same written information around the country and around the globe within a movement. eg one Orthodox sect wants beige stockings, one wants black. It is not practical or even possible to preserve Judaism in one form for all. It has never been so and it never will be so.

I have seen some forums where observant mostly Orthodox people are arguing over the tiniest details of how to observe Jewish law. To me it is mind blowing to be immersed in that level of detail. To me the spirit or the intent is what I am after; beige or black make no difference in my mind as to what kind of a Jew I am. If I do not believe that we received the written texts word for word from G-d, then all that mind-blowing detail about how to follow the laws is irrelevant.

If I were to go back to being a practicing Jew, it would be in the Reform movement, mainly because I believe in capturing the spirit of the religion and taking that to heart-- and living Jewish values yet adapting to the modern world. I believe that Judaism must adapt to changing times while preserving the essence of the religion.

[Jewess]

while preserving the essence of the religion.

What, in your opinion, is the essence of the religion of Judaism, and how does it differ from other religions in its essence?

[Phyllis Stein]

There is no way to answer that without writing a lot and I'm too lazy and it's late. If push comes to shove, I'll refer you to Hillel's quote above.