Coronavirus 6: The Plague of Delta

[FiveAcres]

I have my Pfizer booster scheduled next Friday. That is six months and five days after my second Pfizer. 

[Ozlsn]

2 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

You know how instruction manuals always say "read all the way through these instructions before you begin"?  I would guess this is an instance where doing that is super important.  

Also "gather all the tools you'll need before you start" 

Nah, just wing it...

[Smee]

Australia update - cases in Vic and ACT are climbing, but NSW numbers have started to fall again. And the death rate is much lower than during Melbourne’s 2nd wave last year, because vaccines work!

This is great, we’re on track to hit 80% double vaccinated in mid-Nov here in NSW.

 

[Smash!]

I keep getting disappointed and mad at my country's government namely the Federal Council. Covid tests were free for all with symptoms as it makes sense in a pandemic. They decided yesterday that everyone has to pay for it now because the money is better spent elsewhere. 🤦🏻‍♀️🙄 Remember the same people declared the pandemic was over in summer. 

[Ozlsn]

9 hours ago, Smee said:

Australia update - cases in Vic and ACT are climbing, but NSW numbers have started to fall again. And the death rate is much lower than during Melbourne’s 2nd wave last year, because vaccines work!

This is great, we’re on track to hit 80% double vaccinated in mid-Nov here in NSW.

 

I have a lot of concerns about opening up with the 80% in 16 years and older modelling to be honest. I hope we have a lot more 12-15 year olds boosting the percentages, but that still leaves the under 12s, vaccine hesitant, and outright refusers as a large unvaccinated pool. I do think WA, NT, SA, QLD and Tas would be idiots to open up that early, but I suspect there will be a lot of pressure put on them federally.

I am deeply underwhelmed by some of the rhetoric out of Canberra, put it that way.  

[47of74]

 

What angers me is how many fewer flags there would have been if fuck face and the GQP had done their goddamn jobs. 

[Dandruff]

The US death count from COVID-19 has surpassed 700,000.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-deaths-eclipse-700000-in-us-as-delta-variant-rages/3303210/

I blame the willingly unvaccinated at this point, along with the powers-that-be who are enabling them.

[Smash!]

17 hours ago, Smash! said:

I keep getting disappointed and mad at my country's government namely the Federal Council. Covid tests were free for all with symptoms as it makes sense in a pandemic. They decided yesterday that everyone has to pay for it now because the money is better spent elsewhere. 🤦🏻‍♀️🙄 Remember the same people declared the pandemic was over in summer. 

I should have read a summary not just the live ticker from the press con. The tests are still free for those with symptoms. 😃

[Ozlsn]

20 minutes ago, Smash! said:

I should have read a summary not just the live ticker from the press con. The tests are still free for those with symptoms. 😃

How about those who are close contacts of confirmed cases, which would probably be more useful in limiting spread?

[Smash!]

5 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

How about those who are close contacts of confirmed cases, which would probably be more useful in limiting spread?

Yes it‘s still free. But contact tracing has been overwhelmed for the majority of the time so you likely won‘t get a notice to test from them in time. What has indeed changed is tests for unvaccinated people in order to get a Covid certificate for restaurant visit/classes at a university etc. are no longer free. The tests where you don’t have to pay won‘t get you a certificate. If you can’t get vacc‘d because of medical reasons you still get a test for free and a certificate.

This change lead to my physiotherapist getting vaccinated. He deemed paying for the tests by himself as too expensive while the shot is free. And suddenly those unknown long term side effects weren‘t a big deal anymore 😏

[WiseGirl]

My brother took my parents for their Pfizer booster shot yesterday. My brother himself can't get his booster for a bit.

[CTRLZero]

My husband went to a wedding yesterday, and they had a person checking everyone’s vaccination status before allowing entry.  Apparently, the bride’s extended family has some anti-vaxxers who were upset that they wouldn’t be allowed to attend, so a security type person was hired to make sure they didn’t get in.  Sign of the times.  It was at an outdoor venue, but they had tents for serving dinner afterwards.  Fortunately, my husband keeps a copy of his vaccination card in his wallet and a photo on his phone.

If I’d known how strict they were going to be, I might have attended.  At the time we had to RSVP, I was still too nervous to mingle in groups.  Maybe I still am!  

[church_of_dog]

8 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

My husband went to a wedding yesterday, and they had a person checking everyone’s vaccination status before allowing entry.  Apparently, the bride’s extended family has some anti-vaxxers who were upset that they wouldn’t be allowed to attend, so a security type person was hired to make sure they didn’t get in.  Sign of the times.  It was at an outdoor venue, but they had tents for serving dinner afterwards.  Fortunately, my husband keeps a copy of his vaccination card in his wallet and a photo on his phone.

If I’d known how strict they were going to be, I might have attended.  At the time we had to RSVP, I was still too nervous to mingle in groups.  Maybe I still am!  

I'm on my way home from a visit to my mom at her skilled nursing facility.  I had a copy of my vaccination card on my ipad because I knew I'd need it at the SNF.  But last night I met a friend for dinner and was happy to learn the restaurant also asked to see my vax card.  I hadn't brought the ipad with me to the restaurant so the waitress took my word for it, but I will now put a paper copy of it in my wallet since it's starting to be asked for in all sorts of circumstances.  (of course that's just here in the bay area, not up where I live, but maybe we'll get there eventually)

[Coconut Flan]

Article about our transition to living with COVID as it becomes endemic.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/UCSF-s-Monica-Gandhi-on-how-COVID-will-impact-16503949.php

[Dandruff]

3 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Article about our transition to living with COVID as it becomes endemic.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/UCSF-s-Monica-Gandhi-on-how-COVID-will-impact-16503949.php

Thank you - that was one of the clearest and most concise articles I've read on the subject.  Informative and non-political.

[Someone Out There]

On 10/2/2021 at 10:32 PM, Ozlsn said:

I have a lot of concerns about opening up with the 80% in 16 years and older modelling to be honest. I hope we have a lot more 12-15 year olds boosting the percentages, but that still leaves the under 12s, vaccine hesitant, and outright refusers as a large unvaccinated pool. I do think WA, NT, SA, QLD and Tas would be idiots to open up that early, but I suspect there will be a lot of pressure put on them federally.

I am deeply underwhelmed by some of the rhetoric out of Canberra, put it that way.  

As a Canberran, I personally object to the use of Canberra here!  The Federal Polititians however feel free to make comments about them (the rest of the country sends them here, and ultimately the ACT is the most underrepresented State/Territory by population federally).  I've been generally underwhelmed by the federal polititians for years.  TAS I sort of agree with as they are an island and there is less cross pollination happening there, they have already stated that they aren't looking to have truly porous borders until 90%.  For the rest of the states and territory there are cross pollination issues already and thinking that it won't be occurring ongoing is delusional.  Particularly as there are large amounts of Trucks etc that go through NSW between VIC and QLD (The trucking industry is against creating a decent rail system betwen the two which would cost less to maintain than the roads).

Ultimately there has to be a point at which things are opened up though (though not necessarily interstate borders), the longer things are locked down the less compliance there will be from the general population (think of the apparent Grand Final parties that occurred in VIC last weekend and the cases coming from that).  I can see WA blocking itself off for a long time (realistically it is mostly isolated from the rest of mainland Australia already), SA I'm not sure on, QLD I think there will end up being a larger outbreak causing it to go the route of NSW/VIC/ACT.

From what I understand with kids is that yes, they can get COVID, however they are still less likely to be affected and transmit it to others, and there are a minimal number who get severe disease.  There are also educational, socialisation, and mental health issues to consider with the schools remaining closed. I think allowances should be made for high risk kids to be able to be educated at home, but generally kids will likely be better off going back to school buildings.

[Ozlsn]

9 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

As a Canberran, I personally object to the use of Canberra here! 

Sorry - I tend to use Canberra as shorthand for the federal government, and ACT, NSW, Vic etc as shorthand for state governments. Two of my siblings live there, their children are born and bred Canberrans. Or Ken Behrens, heh.

9 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

For the rest of the states and territory there are cross pollination issues already and thinking that it won't be occurring ongoing is delusional.  Particularly as there are large amounts of Trucks etc that go through NSW between VIC and QLD (The trucking industry is against creating a decent rail system betwen the two which would cost less to maintain than the roads).

No one is saying the borders remain shut indefinitely though, they are saying until vaccination levels are higher, particularly in regional/remote areas. Frankly the trucking industry should be demanding their long haul drivers are vaccinated ASAP so they can get back to a new normal quicker. The regional areas are trying to get vaccination up but thanks to our stellar federal government we are still playing catch up (not a race my arse). 

9 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

Ultimately there has to be a point at which things are opened up though (though not necessarily interstate borders), the longer things are locked down the less compliance there will be from the general population (think of the apparent Grand Final parties that occurred in VIC last weekend and the cases coming from that). 

Don't underestimate the level of undermining going on. Seriously between the state opposition and the (particularly but not exclusively) Murdoch press consistently trying to score political points by undermining public health messages it's not actually surprising that people are following their lead. And then both are shocked! shocked I tell you that tweeting out encouragement to hold parties or get together with friends led to an explosion of cases, and naturally it's the incumbent government's fault because they should have prevented it. Or something. If the Murdoch press had been in Britain in 1942 the country would have surrendered after a month because it's too hard, you can't expect people to live like this, everyone should put up their Christmas lights because tradition and we'll just have to learn to live with the Nazis. Sure some people will die - but 8 million people will be able to go to the pub and put up fairy lights!

9 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

From what I understand with kids is that yes, they can get COVID, however they are still less likely to be affected and transmit it to others, and there are a minimal number who get severe disease.  There are also educational, socialisation, and mental health issues to consider with the schools remaining closed. I think allowances should be made for high risk kids to be able to be educated at home, but generally kids will likely be better off going back to school buildings

My issues here are twofold - the "doesn't affect kids much" data comes predominantly from the alpha strain, and at the moment only covers immediate and not long term effects, the data has been updated to show that children transmit at the same rate as adults, and they are just as likely to be the index case in households once schools etc are open. Personally I don't think only a minimal number getting severe disease should be the metric for whether we open - only a minimal number of kids developed severe disease from polio, only a minimal number developed severe disease from measles. It also assumes that we can predict which kids they will be - and kids (and adults) with some known factors we can look at and say will be higher risk, but the majority of cases we find out were high risk of severe disease a bit too late.  We could do a lot more things regarding ventilation in schools to lower the risk, and that is probably something that should be being done now to reopen. Again it's not "we must stay shut forever" but we need to reach a higher proportion of total population vaccinated, rather than age 16 and over. 

[Smee]

14 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

My issues here are twofold - the "doesn't affect kids much" data comes predominantly from the alpha strain, and at the moment only covers immediate and not long term effects, the data has been updated to show that children transmit at the same rate as adults, and they are just as likely to be the index case in households once schools etc are open. Personally I don't think only a minimal number getting severe disease should be the metric for whether we open - only a minimal number of kids developed severe disease from polio, only a minimal number developed severe disease from measles. It also assumes that we can predict which kids they will be - and kids (and adults) with some known factors we can look at and say will be higher risk, but the majority of cases we find out were high risk of severe disease a bit too late.  We could do a lot more things regarding ventilation in schools to lower the risk, and that is probably something that should be being done now to reopen. Again it's not "we must stay shut forever" but we need to reach a higher proportion of total population vaccinated, rather than age 16 and over. 

From my understanding, Delta has not been any worse for children than the original strain in terms of severity, but because it is so contagious and children are the least vaccinated group these days, a disproportionately high number of them test positive. So yes, schools being full of unvaccinated children makes them highly likely to be sites of spread, and the flow on effect from that to households with higher risk or immunocompromised family members is a worry. But higher vaccination targets are only possible once there's a vaccine approved and available for under 12s, and I am far more concerned about kids' mental health and the stories I'm hearing from fellow parents about their children (and seeing in my own) than I have been about the "lockdown is driving up suicide rates!" rhetoric more generally. I have one child who has been absolutely fine with the whole thing, jumps online in the morning, does all his schoolwork within 2 hours, goes and bounces on the trampoline for a bit, reads a lot, plays and entertains himself and isn't too fazed by how long it's been since he's seen his friends face to face. He could probably stay in lockdown for another 6 months before it started to really test his resilience. I have another child who I am awaiting an initial appointment with a child psychologist because she is not. coping. at. all. I'm nervous about sending her back to school in two weeks, but I also want her there. Ventilation in schools is definitely something that should be getting done NOW but the politicians are of course silent on it (in NSW, at least).

I think vaccine uptake for under 12s will be high here, when it gets approved. The early data on 12-15yr olds is promising, and I would expect most parents who have been vaccinated themselves will get the jab for their kids too. The ACT is tracking their vax rates as "12+" rather than "16+" and have crossed 90% first dose, which is amazing. I'm taking a leaf out of their book and ignoring the 16+ rates in favour of the 12+ (that infographic I posted a couple of days ago in this thread was tracking over 12s) and both NSW and Vic are over 75% first dose, so now it's only a matter of weeks now until the waiting periods between doses pass. One of my writer's group lives in Missouri and despite how ravaged they've been by covid deaths this past year and had vaccines freely available for many months, she said her city's vaccination rate is around 30%.

I was talking to my Dad yesterday (he's a medical biochemist) and his position is that it's more important to get vaccines to developing countries where people haven't had one dose than it is to do booster doses. He was saying that places in the world with very low vaccination rates would pose a greater overall risk to our medical systems than "waning" immunity, because that's where new variants will develop and we run the risk of those variants being significantly less responsive to vaccines and treatments.

[Cartmann99]

Spoiler

[Dandruff]

34 minutes ago, Cartmann99 said:

  Hide contents

This is appalling.  The willingly unvaccinated should be made to suffer the burdens of their chosen risks vs. the medical staff and others who are continually being imposed upon by them.  Priority ER treatment and beds for the vaccinated, separate lines and areas to enter and be seen in the ER, and refusal of treatment for those who get aggressive or insist on unapproved treatments.  Of course there would need to be established rules and staffing to support this, which I'm sure there won't be, but I still like the concept.  Apply surcharges and hire bouncers.

Not sure what to do about involuntarily unvaccinated children accompanied by voluntarily unvaccinated parents, though.

[Alisamer]

39 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

This is appalling.  The willingly unvaccinated should be made to suffer the burdens of their chosen risks vs. the medical staff and others who are continually being imposed upon by them.  Priority ER treatment and beds for the vaccinated, separate lines and areas to enter and be seen in the ER, and refusal of treatment for those who get aggressive or insist on unapproved treatments.  Of course there would need to be established rules and staffing to support this, which I'm sure there won't be, but I still like the concept.  Apply surcharges and hire bouncers.

Not sure what to do about involuntarily unvaccinated children accompanied by voluntarily unvaccinated parents, though.

I like this idea for adults. It's ridiculous for these people to be all "oh, I don't trust the government, doctors don't know anything, I don't know what's in the vaccine, blah blah blah..." and then as soon as they get sick and have trouble breathing they're all like "help me help me help me!" and suddenly don't care a bit about knowing what is in all the meds they are given or whether their treatments are fully approved. 

These are nearly ALL the same people who believe that health care is a privilege and not a right, and that universal healthcare is EVIL, and privileges can be lost. They didn't earn the privilege of hospital care for Covid. They don't want to give up a dollar a month or so in taxes so other people can get needed medical treatment? Then vaccinated people don't want to give up their hospital beds so these idiots can get treatment for a disease they could have made an effort to avoid. 

Obviously I mean this for the US. Other countries are in other situations.

[Ozlsn]

Adults who are threatening violence against staff should be removed by security and treated only if they agree to certain conditions, which include not getting abusive, either verbally or physically. Patients and/or families demanding Ivermectin should be asked to leave if they do not want to progress with accepted medical treatment. Patients whi cannot make medical decisions due to incapacity should continue to be treated according to best practice guidelines. Parents who are threatening violence can be and should be asked to leave, and treatment of children continued under best practice guidelines.  I have no idea if the legislation is in place for this to happen though. I have a bit of a zero tolerance approach to abusive treatment in the workplace.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Ozlsn said:

Adults who are threatening violence against staff should be removed by security and treated only if they agree to certain conditions, which include not getting abusive, either verbally or physically. Patients and/or families demanding Ivermectin should be asked to leave if they do not want to progress with accepted medical treatment. Patients whi cannot make medical decisions due to incapacity should continue to be treated according to best practice guidelines. Parents who are threatening violence can be and should be asked to leave, and treatment of children continued under best practice guidelines.  I have no idea if the legislation is in place for this to happen though. I have a bit of a zero tolerance approach to abusive treatment in the workplace.

In the US, physicians ( and I’m assuming other licensed medical professionals) can override parental wishes in order to provide best practice care for their children via a court order.  I have seen it done in the case of a JW parent who was refusing a blood transfusion for their critically ill child. In the times I have seen this done, the parents were always grateful. The parents themselves just couldn’t make the decision based on their religious beliefs. Also, I’ve only seen the courts used to provide best practice, standard therapies, and not in terminal or end of life situations. Oxygen therapy, antibiotics, blood products, cat scans, other needed procedures…

[Someone Out There]

23 hours ago, Smee said:

From my understanding, Delta has not been any worse for children than the original strain in terms of severity, but because it is so contagious and children are the least vaccinated group these days, a disproportionately high number of them test positive. So yes, schools being full of unvaccinated children makes them highly likely to be sites of spread, and the flow on effect from that to households with higher risk or immunocompromised family members is a worry. But higher vaccination targets are only possible once there's a vaccine approved and available for under 12s, and I am far more concerned about kids' mental health and the stories I'm hearing from fellow parents about their children (and seeing in my own) than I have been about the "lockdown is driving up suicide rates!" rhetoric more generally. I have one child who has been absolutely fine with the whole thing, jumps online in the morning, does all his schoolwork within 2 hours, goes and bounces on the trampoline for a bit, reads a lot, plays and entertains himself and isn't too fazed by how long it's been since he's seen his friends face to face. He could probably stay in lockdown for another 6 months before it started to really test his resilience. I have another child who I am awaiting an initial appointment with a child psychologist because she is not. coping. at. all. I'm nervous about sending her back to school in two weeks, but I also want her there. Ventilation in schools is definitely something that should be getting done NOW but the politicians are of course silent on it (in NSW, at least).

Yes, I was reading that last night, also in addition at least in one of the articles I read the kids who get long covid tend to have all recovered within 3 months, so from what I was reading that at least isn't a huge concern (unlike with Polio where there are lifetime effects).  There will be an occasional death unfortunately, however there is also an occasional death with the normal flu season (covid unfortunately has produced more child death than the flu does in a normal season though).  Also there is a difference between Teenagers (who can be vaccinated) and children (who at this time can't be), children as with previous strains don't tend to be affected as much.

In regards to the ventilation in NSW schools, last I heard they were doing a ventilation audit and were going to be putting in systems etc around it (and at least to start part of this will likely involve open windows, they are also purchasing air purifiers).  Why this wasn't started earlier than it was I don't know... (Whatever I was listening to was I think at the start of the NSW school holidays or whenever they initially announced school return times, and they were saying that the x period of time was to allow them to finish the ventilation audits in schools prior to students going back).

For the ACT they stated that they improved a lot of the ventilation in schools during the 2019/2020 fires (I know at work they changed the filters at this time period as smoke was getting in the building and we were sent home because of it), at this time of year it should be ok to have windows open as well, and i believe there is an order in for air purifiers as well for those schools where the ventilation isn't up to scratch.

I have no idea on what Victoria is doing around ventilation in schools, I presume something similar.

ETA:

@SassyPants The UK the courts can override the parents wishes as well (and prevent them from taking the kids home from hospital).  Some very Catholic friends of mine had some complaint link on Facebook a while back about a brain dead 2yr old (I believe it was a degenerative brain disease) whose life support was turned off by the NHS complaining about the fact that the NHS wouldn't let them take him from the UK to the Vatican for treatment they would pay for.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Someone Out There

[Smee]

Aaaaand NSW is about to be fucked. I guess everywhere else in the world got screwed over by right wing governments, it's just our turn. Quick rundown:

- a few months ago, before the latest covid outbreak in Australia, it was revealed that the NSW Premier was banging another politician and some dodgy stuff might have happened with approving something something for his constituents. She seemed to dodge a bullet and nothing more was heard of it for a while

- delta hit NSW, we spread it to Vic, everybody got locked down

- turns out the anti-corruption people wanted to investigate the Premier, and last Friday she resigned

- Tuesday they announced the new Premier and it's Dominic Perrottet. He's a billion times worse - 39yr old Opus Dei Catholic with 6 kids (so far), has said that priests shouldn't break confessional seal even for child sexual abuse, anti-abortion, likes Trump, fuck the poor, classic far right slimeball

- two days into his new job, St Dominic of the Plague announces a bunch of changes to the planned "roadmap to easing restrictions" that a whole lot of people worked hard on. This coming Monday we were supposed to slowly ease out of lockdown, with plenty of restrictions still in place. Nah, scrap that, says Perrotwat . Double the amount of people allowed at homes than was originally planned, bigger numbers allowed at various gatherings, no masks needed in offices, thousands can go to sporting events, indoor pools reopening, nightclubs reopening (but no dancing, lol, coz con-Dom has never been to a nightclub clearly). all school kids back at the same time, a week earlier than planned with nothing extra in place in terms of ventilation.

I HATE THAT A HEALTH CRISIS CONTINUES TO BE TURNED INTO A POLITICAL POINT SCORING EXERCISE AT THE EXPENSE OF PEOPLE'S LIVES.