Seewalds 44: Skip the Ads and Jessa Won’t Get Paid!

[Vivi_music]

@Italiangirl You mentionning Josh made me think of something. The Duggars do seem to use the excuse that ''Josh was curious, as a teenager, he wanted to discover things, etc.''. In their Duggar speech, Josh's actions are because of his development into puberty (which is not but that is what they was their spin on it). So a child's development is a good enough excuse for Josh?

[Jenderqueer]

2 hours ago, lilith said:

I’m not sure how much of this is coming from Jessa’s upbringing and how much is Ben’s Calvinist influence (total depravity etc). Ben actually studies theology, unlike Jessa’s father, and his reading material that she probably has access to has a Calvinist bent.

IBLP does also go along with the "children and babies are sinful" schtick, too.  What an amazing combo for their children to get.  Free Henry.  

[Timetraveler]

Such a sad thing that this cycle of emotional abuse never seems to end; this time Spurgie, Henry and Ivy (and all the other grandkids) are the victims.

Calling children 'sinners' and speaking to them about their 'sinful behavior' and 'hell' is child abuse IMO.

Reading Jessa's reactions on IG makes me feel both sad and very angry. Please, don't make the same mistake your parents did.

[marmalade]

Repeating the cycle of abuse demonstrates that she's learned nothing. The only one who may have a different mindset in this regard is Jill. But it's hard to say how far away from fundamentalism she has really drifted.

[just_ordinary]

On 8/23/2020 at 6:39 AM, baldricks_turnip said:

I just watched her faith video and it was kind of interesting to me because as an Australian, Christianity is kind of a fringe culture. There might be a decent amount of people who put 'Christian' as their religion on the census but it's very unusual to meet someone under the age of 80 who goes to church or reads the bible. So it was kind of interesting to me to see how much reflection goes into having faith (I know plenty of practicising Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus but only 2 Christians). I kind of always assumed if you believed in god it was like a nice security blanket but Jessa made it sound like a lot of work. I already spend a lot of mental effort wondering if I am a good mother, a good wife, a good friend, a good employee. Wondering if I am a good Christian sounds like about 10 times as much work as that.

Is this what it is like for mainstream Christianity or is this just a fundie thing?

Things are very much the same in Germany. But even 90% of the practicing Christians are nothing like that. Even the practicing folk is more or less cherry picking and doesn’t stick out. The different theological viewpoints are there but don’t play out very prominently normally. For my country this kind of lifestyle screams Fundie. But we would classify a lot if Christian lifestyles in the US as Fundie even though it seems to be pretty normal in some places.

[OrchidBlossom]

13 hours ago, lilith said:

 

IFB and Calvinism really are incompatible theologies (though with many similar practices) and it always blows my mind that JimBob married two of his daughters to Calvinists - it shows how shallow his theology is and how focused on legalistic rules his idea of religion is.

Who is the other Calvinist? I knew Ben was.

[Pecansforeveryone]

Jeremy is a Calvinist. The John MacArthur, John Piper dude bro crowd are very staunch Calvinists. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

Anyone wanna ask Jessa, why she thinks the unborn are pure and innocent but babies are sinners? I just don't understand this, especially from those who dislike Catholics. This is why Catholics baptize babies because they are born from 'original sin' still doesn't make sense because I would think it was more they were conceived from original sin, and there for sinners in utero and there for not worthy of grace just like all other living breathing tax needing humans. (which is really why they say once you are born you are on your own, because fuck you I'm not paying for you to eat, see a doctor or live a life with basic human needs. 

[SassyPants]

I am surprised that Ben hasn’t evolved and matured beyond those teachings. Jessa, like most if not all of JB’s offspring, is intellectually stunted and lacks basic curiosity, so I can she why she reasons the way that she does, but I expect more from Ben. I also think with Jessa it’s just easier to spout the Duggar message. She’s lazy to her core ( wasn’t she the one who stated if God had wanted us to see and enjoy the sunrise, he’d have made it occur later in the day?) and likely loves the easy JB money.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

First thoughts on seeing my newborn child (prediction): Wow, that is one monsterous sinner I gave birth to.

[HeartsAFundie]

10 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I am surprised that Ben hasn’t evolved and matured beyond those teachings. Jessa, like most if not all of JB’s offspring, is intellectually stunted and lacks basic curiosity, so I can she why she reasons the way that she does, but I expect more from Ben. I also think with Jessa it’s just easier to spout the Duggar message. She’s lazy to her core ( wasn’t she the one who stated if God had wanted us to see and enjoy the sunrise, he’d have made it occur later in the day?) and likely loves the easy JB money.

I never thought Jessa had a curious, intellectual bend to her....anyone remember an episode of 19KAC where they went to a flower shop-I think it was to pick out flowers for someone's wedding-and the producers asked Jessa what kind of flowers they were getting?  Jessa responded..."I don't know....I just call 'em flowers" with absolutely no interest as to what they were even buying.  Not even enough motivation or curiosity to find out exactly what they were buying by reading the labels underneath each kind, or even asking the clerk at the shop.   So there's that.  

Edited August 25, 2020 by HeartsAFundie

[CarrotCake]

You always hope that cute little babies and the love of parents for their children changes at least some of the views.

But then again, JB and Ms kids were also small and cute once. 

[Jinder Roles]

Even though Baptist’s, IFB and Gothard’s ilk aren’t Calvinist, I hear a quite a lot of Calvinistic teachings and quotes in other Baptists spaces. 
 

I think she has been influenced by Ben’s theology but what she said is extremely similar to what I was taught as a traditional Baptist from the Caribbean. 
 

Unfortunately the way she views herself and her “depravity” is pretty common in evangelical spaces of all types. 

[nolongerIFBx]

8 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

Even though Baptist’s, IFB and Gothard’s ilk aren’t Calvinist, I hear a quite a lot of Calvinistic teachings and quotes in other Baptists spaces. 
 

I think she has been influenced by Ben’s theology but what she said is extremely similar to what I was taught as a traditional Baptist from the Caribbean. 
 

Unfortunately the way she views herself and her “depravity” is pretty common in evangelical spaces of all types. 

Yes, many IFBs are 4-point Calvinist. They only disagree on predestination. On the other hand, they have their own flower acrostic.

[SassyPants]

11 hours ago, HeartsAFundie said:

I never thought Jessa had a curious, intellectual bend to her....anyone remember an episode of 19KAC where they went to a flower shop-I think it was to pick out flowers for someone's wedding-and the producers asked Jessa what kind of flowers they were getting?  Jessa responded..."I don't know....I just call 'em flowers" with absolutely no interest as to what they were even buying.  Not even enough motivation or curiosity to find out exactly what they were buying by reading the labels underneath each kind, or even asking the clerk at the shop.   So there's that.  

Wasn’t that for her own wedding?

[HeartsAFundie]

13 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Wasn’t that for her own wedding?

Yes, now that you mention it, I believe it was.  Which makes it even worse.  

Edited August 25, 2020 by HeartsAFundie

[wendy-sparkles]

12 hours ago, HeartsAFundie said:

I never thought Jessa had a curious, intellectual bend to her....anyone remember an episode of 19KAC where they went to a flower shop-I think it was to pick out flowers for someone's wedding-and the producers asked Jessa what kind of flowers they were getting?  Jessa responded..."I don't know....I just call 'em flowers" with absolutely no interest as to what they were even buying.  Not even enough motivation or curiosity to find out exactly what they were buying by reading the labels underneath each kind, or even asking the clerk at the shop.   So there's that.  

I feel like this is a little unfair. Maybe she's just.... not interested in flowers? The producers ask so many stupid questions, I'm sure  if it were me sometimes I'd be just like, I don't care, they're flowers. iirc Jessa and Ben courted by discussing theology, which, even if I violently disagree with Calvinism, doesn't strike me as the behaviour of someone completely intellectually incurious. (which is not even necessarily a bad thing to be! You don't have to be interested in a rigorous interrogation of the world to have some kind of moral worth) Jessa's problem here is messed up, unkind ideas about child development which even clever, educated people sometimes have (ask me how I know).

23 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I am surprised that Ben hasn’t evolved and matured beyond those teachings. Jessa, like most if not all of JB’s offspring, is intellectually stunted and lacks basic curiosity, so I can she why she reasons the way that she does, but I expect more from Ben. I also think with Jessa it’s just easier to spout the Duggar message. She’s lazy to her core ( wasn’t she the one who stated if God had wanted us to see and enjoy the sunrise, he’d have made it occur later in the day?) and likely loves the easy JB money.

I hate that i'm being forced to defend Jessa here but.... she was clearly joking about the sunrise? It's okay to not be a morning person? And I think it's a little offensive to refer to Calvinism (which I hate!), a widely held theological position and deeply felt belief for many, as something to be evolved and matured beyond. My (admittedly not strong) understanding is that a lot of protestant denominations technically have elements of Calvinist theology even if they don't actively teach it eg the Anglicans. As much as I would like to agree that reformed theology is just a stepping stone in religious development (the culmination of which is obviously joining the one true Roman Catholic church?) it is extremely patronising to significant proportion of the world's Christians.

Sorry I just think the petty comments (Jessa doesn't care enough about flowers and likes to sleep in! She's dumb!) undermine the real point here, which is that she has some disturbing ideas about child development, which may have their source in what Jessa and Ben learned from their families/church/cult.

 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I think we need to recognize that total depravity for many is just a  natural extension of "original" sin which is a very mainstream Christian doctrine. Now I find that doctrine very personally damaging.  It's a big part of why I am not a Christian. However, it is definitely a mainstream belief and not just a fundy belief.   

[debdebdebby13]

I am a Christian, though a "non-denominational" one. I won't even call myself a liberal Christian, but I completely disagree with Jessa on this one (as well as many other topics).

Children are totally and completely innocent and remain that way for a good long time. We believe in the "age of accountability," meaning once a child reaches a certain point in their development, not really an age, they are able to understand the WHY behind the choices we make. Little children may not hit other kids, because mom and dad tell them hitting other people is wrong, but they don't comprehend why hitting is wrong. Once they reach an age where they can understand why something is wrong and make the choice to do right/wrong then they are accountable for their actions and thus become "sinful." I feel like, for most people that age is somewhere in the tween/early teen years. Basically once they reach abstract reasoning. 

Forgive me though, I don't know much theology outside of the denomination I grew up in and no longer attend.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, wendy-sparkles said:

I feel like this is a little unfair. Maybe she's just.... not interested in flowers? The producers ask so many stupid questions, I'm sure  if it were me sometimes I'd be just like, I don't care, they're flowers. iirc Jessa and Ben courted by discussing theology, which, even if I violently disagree with Calvinism, doesn't strike me as the behaviour of someone completely intellectually incurious. (which is not even necessarily a bad thing to be! You don't have to be interested in a rigorous interrogation of the world to have some kind of moral worth) Jessa's problem here is messed up, unkind ideas about child development which even clever, educated people sometimes have (ask me how I know).

I hate that i'm being forced to defend Jessa here but.... she was clearly joking about the sunrise? It's okay to not be a morning person? And I think it's a little offensive to refer to Calvinism (which I hate!), a widely held theological position and deeply felt belief for many, as something to be evolved and matured beyond. My (admittedly not strong) understanding is that a lot of protestant denominations technically have elements of Calvinist theology even if they don't actively teach it eg the Anglicans. As much as I would like to agree that reformed theology is just a stepping stone in religious development (the culmination of which is obviously joining the one true Roman Catholic church?) it is extremely patronising to significant proportion of the world's Christians.

Sorry I just think the petty comments (Jessa doesn't care enough about flowers and likes to sleep in! She's dumb!) undermine the real point here, which is that she has some disturbing ideas about child development, which may have their source in what Jessa and Ben learned from their families/church/cult.

 

My comment was in response to one made about Jessa being intelligent. 
The intellectual curiosity and individuality was stifled in ALL the Duggars. I don’t think Jessa stands out amongst her siblings in that regard, because at the appropriate time during her childhood development those skills were purposely thwarted by her parents. Sometimes there are skills that are really hard to attain when the building blocks for those skills were never allowed to properly develop. In the Duggars’ home a curious child was considered and labeled naughty, strong willed and perhaps evil or drawn to Satan. I believe this way of thinking and treating developing children to be very, very wrong. In addition to all of this, the Duggars all strongly lean toward the lazy/entitled side. If there is a short cut to take, even if safety or health are involved, they take it. Some of this could be blamed on the fact that they had NINETEEN kids.  However, JB and M were particularly poor role models in showing how to take care and provide for one’s self. Again, they showed the kids a work around called grifting and begging. And in the end, they sold their kids anonymity and private moments away for easy money. They literally are terrible parents.

Edited August 25, 2020 by SassyPants

[purple_summer]

41 minutes ago, debdebdebby13 said:

I am a Christian, though a "non-denominational" one. I won't even call myself a liberal Christian, but I completely disagree with Jessa on this one (as well as many other topics).

Children are totally and completely innocent and remain that way for a good long time. We believe in the "age of accountability," meaning once a child reaches a certain point in their development, not really an age, they are able to understand the WHY behind the choices we make. Little children may not hit other kids, because mom and dad tell them hitting other people is wrong, but they don't comprehend why hitting is wrong. Once they reach an age where they can understand why something is wrong and make the choice to do right/wrong then they are accountable for their actions and thus become "sinful." I feel like, for most people that age is somewhere in the tween/early teen years. Basically once they reach abstract reasoning. 

Forgive me though, I don't know much theology outside of the denomination I grew up in and no longer attend.

Many churches believe both. Children don’t consciously sin until they’re old enough to know better, but they’re still sinners. Your behavior on an individual level has nothing to do with it. That’s the whole point behind the “age of accountability”- you basically get a free pass into heaven before that because you’re not expected to know better. 

[LorEl]

I always liked Jessa and thought she was being sarcastic a lot, having a dry humor and being direct. Nowadays, I like Jill very much, who annoyed me when she was still living at home and later being married (and wrapping little Israel tightly in a blanket, letting him "cry it out" etc.). 

The ones who were "sinners" as children and had problems with their faith seem to be the firmest believers. And Jill who we all probably pictured with gazillion children grew a lot and widened her view on life. Maybe she was/is very sensitive. This made her fall in line with her parents easily (to avoid emotional distress) but it also made it possible for her to let other people's feelings, convictions etc touch her. 

Jessa is very different. 

(I hope what I wanted to say came across, no native speaker) 

[Audrey2]

24 minutes ago, LorEl said:

 

(I hope what I wanted to say came across, no native speaker) 

Actually you non native speakers blow me away here! I studied French and Spanish in school, and while I could speak them okay my written papers in French or Spanish looks like someone had bled all-over the page.

[Daisy0322]

2 hours ago, debdebdebby13 said:

 

Children are totally and completely innocent and remain that way for a good long time. We believe in the "age of accountability," meaning once a child reaches a certain point in their development, not really an age, they are able to understand the WHY behind the choices we make. Little children may not hit other kids, because mom and dad tell them hitting other people is wrong, but they don't comprehend why hitting is wrong. Once they reach an age where they can understand why something is wrong and make the choice to do right/wrong then they are accountable for their actions and thus become "sinful." I feel like, for most people that age is somewhere in the tween/early teen years. Basically once they reach abstract reasoning. 

What’s up, evil catholic here ? I am practicing although I’m pretty liberal socially. Basically they say we are all born “sinful” because no one is perfect. That’s not the same as saying they’re dirty sinful babies. They’re baptism is a sacrament to God to have forgiveness for any future shit. At 8 they do first communion which is like the age of accountability Kind of they start confessing things anyway. I’ve never experienced any chastising basically they tell you to pray and maybe you apologize to who you did something mean to. Like if a kid fights with their brother they might tell them to pray and then apologize to your brother and try to do something nice for them. Then you have confirmation as a teenager and your considered an adult in the church and know right from wrong. 
i think people sometimes make it sound much more dramatic than it is. My kids were baptized but I don’t think they are “sinners” they’re learning to do the right thing. Sometimes I fuck up to and apologize when appropriate ??‍♀️ People like Jesse take things so literally they can’t see the forest for the trees and it makes everyone involved look dumb. 

[FreeTheScapegoats]

Jessa may not be an intellectually curious person per se. She was, however, a child who was molested by her older brother and told to forgive him. She was also told he and her were just the same- sinners in need of a savior. Then came the extra responsibilities, but the gist is there. Deep down, she probably wanted to understand why. And there comes Calvinism and its total depravity, giving her a good enough answer. Then, along came Ben, who was into that as well. So she married him and had children with him. Now she’ll just double down because that is easier than to reassess her worldview and understand her parents failed her, while inflicting generational trauma in her kids in the process. She might even see her sons as capable of doing what Josh did, because of her awful beliefs. She can already look at them and see them as sinners.