Meghan and Harry 2: Now with Archie

[nelliebelle1197]

21 minutes ago, dawbs said:

Universally, I hate that argument;  i think it's a variation on telling people w/ legit greivience to quit "playing the X card" (regardless of the race of the writer). And not just the wording (but, also, hate the wording.

I might not see sexism in everything, but damn, I dont get to chose to be less female when it's not convenient-I might "cry sexism "only sometimes, but that doesn't change the sexism microaggressions that I ignore.

Someone only sometimes tackling it seems more like issue exhaustion than convenience 

 

(I know i look "team markle" in this thread, which is interesting because IRL I'm reasonably sure I'd kinda hate her)

I totally get it but it was interesting to read her opinion. Obama and Kamala Harris also get the “not black enough” treatment and frankly, I understand those positions a bit more than this writer. Obama was reared by white family members and Harris by Indian family members and neither of them had a black American family experience and cultural connection (neither father is american) though I think deeming them “not black enough” is discounting completely the roots of bigotry and racism. Racism is grounded in what people see in context of skin color, not who people really are. Markle was raised by a black mother. She had a black American cultural experience - whatever that means in context of her family- so those arguments don’t really make a lot of sense to me.

It was just an interesting counterpoint. Issues of race are so complex. There is no easy answer without massive cultural shifts. I wonder if we will ever get there.

[meep]

You know I had to come here and give my opinion.

I support #Megxit. 

Stepping back into a minor role was going to happen eventually. Harry is sixth in line. It was always on the horizon. 

H&M don't own Frogmore Cottage, the Queen owns it. If they get to stay there, it's the Queen's choice. If they are kicked to the curb, it's the Queen's choice. If you have a problem with either of those, blame the Queen. Just like other minor royals, H&M will likely be made to pay rent if they stay at Frogmore. 

It's fair to say certain reports have come out saying Harry has been discussing these announcements with his family for weeks but was continually shut down by his grandmother and father. When they got wind a reporter was going to leak the news, they decided to immediately release the announcement without permission. 

All the other minor royals get taxpayer-funded security and live in taxpayer-funded housing, and they do significantly less than Harry & Meghan so why is the outrage at H&M significantly more???

[meep]

Okay so, I've read over many of the previous pages and some of the comments are so, so disappointing. Especially considering what forum we are on. 

I'm seeing comments like, "Meghan cuts everyone else out of her life so she must be influencing Harry." Really? First of all, again being on THIS FORUM of all places, you should know how shitty of a comment that is. If anyone has seen interviews with her father and siblings, you know how narcissistic and shit they are. We actively root for people on this site to leave and cut contact with their toxic family members, but Meghan is vilified for this because??? 

Everyone is so upset about the renovations at Frogmore. Frogmore was undergoing renovations before ever being offered to Harry & Meghan, they originally were expected to move into Apartment 1 (which would have been WAY MORE EXPENSIVE). After they were offered Frogmore, they privately paid for all internal furnishings and finishings (as per their website), as well as anything "movable" outside. "Significant" renovations are *suppose to be* paid for privately, who knows if that happened. H&M are currently in a lawsuit with a tabloid paper for exaggerating the costs and specifics of renovations to the public. The renovations cost 2.4 million. Speaking of which, Princess Eugenie (who has never had as many royal duties as H&M and probably never will) lives in Ivy Cottage, which underwent 12 million worth of renovation). So H&M are getting significantly more hate for Frogmore because????

If you don't think Meghan gets vilified in the media, see these two daily mail headlines, one from Catherine's pregnancy and one from Meghan's pregnancy:

Article 1 title: "Not long to go! Pregnant Kate tenderly cradles her baby bump while wrapping up her royal duties ahead of maternity leave - and William confirms she's due 'any minute now.'"
Article 2 title: "Why can't Meghan Markle keep her hands off her bump? Experts tackle the question that has got the nation talking: is it pride, vanity, acting - or a new age bonding technique?"

This is exactly what Harry was talking about. Harry said back in October: "I will always protect my family. And now I have my own family to protect. What we need to do is focus on being real, and focus on being the people we are, and standing up for what we believe in. I will not be bullied into playing a game that killed my mum." 

I'm inclined to agree with Harry. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

38 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Obama was reared by white family members and Harris by Indian family members and neither of them had a black American family experience and cultural connection (neither father is american) though I think deeming them “not black enough” is discounting completely the roots of bigotry and racism.

True, but many African American people don't have just the colour of their skin working against them, but are also more frequently trapped in the cycle of generational poverty. Harris and Obama were way more lucky than the average African American in that department being born in well off and well educated families. Obama and Harris have been and still are victims of racism, but on their side they have had more positive factors than other black Americans have.

As for Megan Markle, I haven't read the article you refer at, but I read other articles, not about Markle, that made reference to how people who are more racially ambiguous and conventionally attractive according to the canons of white beauty have a different experience of life and race compared to people who look more stereotypically African American black. 

Also, historically, black people who "could pass" as white had higher chances to escape the worst aspects of racism.

[Blahblah]

1 hour ago, meep said:

All the other minor royals get taxpayer-funded security 

Actually they mostly don’t unless they are actually on royal duties. Randy Andy kicked up a few years ago when Beatrice & Eugenie lost their round the clock security. They were 5th & 6th in line at the time. Security is now provided when minor royals are performing royal duties, but not 24 hours a day as is the expectation for Harry & Meghan.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384476/Beatrice-Eugenie-stripped-police-protection-row-50k-cost.html

[acheronbeach]

5 hours ago, treehugger said:

I almost wonder if the racism is less on mainstream media and more within the BRF itself.  Because of where we live in our city and certain connections that have been made, I have witnessed firsthand the staggering racism that seems incredibly common in upper class British Canadian circles, and I don’t imagine it is much better across the pond.  I have heard people of colour referred to as “darkies” 

Jesus murphy what Canadian hellhole spawned these ignoramuses?  I've never encountered that word, ever, nor any other slurs, and I've lived in various small Ontario and BC towns, a lot of the time with my racialized partner.  That said, I tend to socialize with people who are fairly educated or at least bright, so that might explain it...

 

@laPapessaGiovanna I don't really see that list as an example of the mainstream British media being racist.  Your examples prove that the Daily Mail is racist.  The Daily Mail wrote two articles pre-MM and PH's marriage that were racist, and they have  been criticized across the board by other media outlets for it.  The BBC presenter who compared Archie to a primate did so on his own  social media and was immediately fired and BBC rightfully apologized.  I was pretty surprised at how effusive most of the Brit media were toward her at the outset.  I say that just thinking back to the headlines about Waity Katy, Lazy Kate, Wisteria Sisters, Fat Frumpy Fergie, Duchess of Pork, Daddy's a Perv, Mrs. Tampon, Homewrecker, Rottweiler...

Either way it's all gone downhill.  I agree that the Fail has been racist but I'm not seeing it from the respectable and not so respectable other mags.  

[meep]

36 minutes ago, Blahblah said:

Actually they mostly don’t unless they are actually on royal duties. Randy Andy kicked up a few years ago when Beatrice & Eugenie lost their round the clock security. They were 5th & 6th in line at the time. Security is now provided when minor royals are performing royal duties, but not 24 hours a day as is the expectation for Harry & Meghan.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384476/Beatrice-Eugenie-stripped-police-protection-row-50k-cost.html

Yes sorry, I meant they get security on royal duties. 

We'll have to see what happens on Monday. At the end of the day, the Queen gets the last say - on security, on Frogmore, etc. and the extent on everything. There is always the hope that their security (at least while they are in Canada) will be privately funded from the family or taken out from the Crown Estate and not from the Sovereign Grant. I'm sure some people will still complain but that would seem like a fair compromise to me. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by meep

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 minutes ago, acheronbeach said:

 I don't really see that list as an example of the mainstream British media being racist.  Your examples prove that the Daily Mail is racist.

It's the third most read newspaper in the UK, that counts as mainstream for me. Btw those were examples taken from a single NYT's article, since it's behind paywall I thought about copying them here, there may be more afaik. 

[acheronbeach]

5 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

It's the third most read newspaper in the UK, that counts as mainstream for me. Btw those were examples taken from a single NYT's article, since it's behind paywall I thought about copying them here, there may be more afaik. 

You do see my issue  with saying the mainstream media as a whole in the UK has been "unrelentingly racist" when AFAIK I'm aware of two articles from one paper which were both 2+ years ago and  universally condemned?  

I'm aware of only one more, which I've mentioned - a satirical puppet show where Meghan was depicted as threatening to stab Kate over a stolen hairbrush.    

Is there anything else, beyond the usual catty Brit media coverage of hemlines and handbags?

[Aoife]

The BRF are an extremely privileged group who live in a bubble the rest of us can barely imagine. They are also hugely entitled, though in recent years many of them have learned not to show that so much.  But make no mistake, the entitlement is still there.

So the disgraced Andrew was told to step back from royal duties, yet was pictured out riding with the queen the very next day, and is still embraced by the family. The BRF are upset about the negative  publicity for the institution, not about Andrew's shady behaviour.

Same with Harry and Megan. The brief official statement from Buckingham Palace indicates irritation at the lack of consultation, at most. All the claims of hurt and anger come from the usual rent-a-quote types.

TL:DR   These people play by different rules.

[tabitha2]

If it’s any article out of the Daily Fail it’s going to be sensationalist tabloid Trash and pretty ugly And the idiot Racist Radio host was promptly fired. Still not see a racist witch hunt against Meghan.  Sorry. 

[treehugger]

@acheronbeach, the only people I ever heard use actual racial slurs were the several of the well off, upper class, older English people who are part of several committees I used to attend.  Most of the racism I’ve seen in rural Canada is less blatant, and aimed more at First Nations Canadians and less at people of colour. 
Edited to add, and also directed towards people of Middle Eastern descent. ?
 

Apso, while I appreciate the jab about who I socialize with, I spend most of my volunteer time with the homeless (who are disproportionately First Nations) and refugees (who are mostly Middle Eastern/African).  Unfortunately when you work in these areas, you hear the worst.  

Edited January 12, 2020 by treehugger

[nelliebelle1197]

7 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

True, but many African American people don't have just the colour of their skin working against them, but are also more frequently trapped in the cycle of generational poverty. Harris and Obama were way more lucky than the average African American in that department being born in well off and well educated families. Obama and Harris have been and still are victims of racism, but on their side they have had more positive factors than other black Americans have.

As for Megan Markle, I haven't read the article you refer at, but I read other articles, not about Markle, that made reference to how people who are more racially ambiguous and conventionally attractive according to the canons of white beauty have a different experience of life and race compared to people who look more stereotypically African American black. 

Also, historically, black people who "could pass" as white had higher chances to escape the worst aspects of racism.

Harris and Obama were not luckier than any other middle class educated American person of color. Not black enough is  a dog whistle used by people trying to minimize the accomplishments of black Americans and it comes from both inside and and outside the culture. I don’t know how much you know about black American culture but it is a real thing with social norms that evolved from slave culture and later through segregation. It varies from region to region but there are still strong threads and commonalities. A lot of successful black people have dealt with this slur throughout their lives. It is a real thing, it has hurt people I know and it is weaponized. 

[LittleOwl]

7 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

It's the third most read newspaper in the UK, that counts as mainstream for me.

Oh lordy. 3rd most read here?! My rabbit would rip it out of his hutch if we ever put one in there.  He was more of a financial times or guardian reader. 

Ugh the Daily Fail ?

[acheronbeach]

11 minutes ago, LittleOwl said:

Oh lordy. 3rd most read here?! My rabbit would rip it out of his hutch if we ever put one in there.  He was more of a financial times or guardian reader. 

Ugh the Daily Fail ?

Everyone I know reads it for a laugh because it's just insane trash clickbait.   This is the paper that posted the headline about Kate on a birthing ball and her sister and Wills at birthing classes - with accompanying photo.  The article was the creepily detailed Photoshop imaginings of what one random woman thought might be the preparations for George's birth. 

Or that George is cousins with Blue Ivy Carter. 

Or the infamous,"Is there no one left in Britain who can make a sandwich?" next to Kate's face (it was actually about Tesco outsourcing)

I'm personally a fan of their many articles about food which has miraculously taken on the appearance of Jesus or genitals. 

[raspberrymint]

On 1/10/2020 at 4:02 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Tbf none of us ever know what goes on in other people's family dynamics.  

 

Don't you think most reasonable adults also try to change things when they find the life they chose wasn't making them happy?  Improve their life?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan girl.  I find this stuff interesting atm but my thoughts about her don't generally extend beyond noticing she's beautiful and has a cute baby when I see a pic.  I am just struck by the amount of hate getting thrown her way for not kowtowing to an archaic and IMO ridiculous institution.

And I absolutely don't think any of them should be living off the tax payer so no argument from me on the money thing - they want to live their own lives they should pay their own bills.  And even if they never got another dime from the BRF they should still be able to manage.  Many wildly famous, wealthy, but unskilled, people make serious bank sitting on boards and giving inane speeches to stay wealthy.  Or they can scale back their lifestyle and become off grid goat farmers...whatever.  

I just think there is a huge chasm between them making a change for their own happiness, income, whatever and her trying to bring down the monarchy.  If it comes crashing down because of one marriage then it wasn't that strong to begin with.  

I just wholeheartedly agree with all of this.

Only other thing I want to say here is of course everyone should have both the right to privacy and the option to be filmed.  Most people have that nowadays.  Harry didn't choose what he was born into.

Edited January 12, 2020 by raspberrymint
forgot a word + last sentence

[acheronbeach]

2 hours ago, treehugger said:

@acheronbeach, the only people I ever heard use actual racial slurs were the several of the well off, upper class, older English people who are part of several committees I used to attend.  Most of the racism I’ve seen in rural Canada is less blatant, and aimed more at First Nations Canadians and less at people of colour. 
Edited to add, and also directed towards people of Middle Eastern descent. ?
 

Apso, while I appreciate the jab about who I socialize with, I spend most of my volunteer time with the homeless (who are disproportionately First Nations) and refugees (who are mostly Middle Eastern/African).  Unfortunately when you work in these areas, you hear the worst.  

I didn't mean to make a jab at you - honestly just was thoughtless throwaway comment - I was actually thinking about someone i  loathe that my friends hang out with who lives criticizing "the gays". I apologize!!!

Thinking on what you've posted... there is a huge amount of racism toward FN people.  Huge news here right now is how A BC BMO branch tried you have an aboriginal man arrested for opening an account for his granddaughter.  

[LittleOwl]

@acheronbeach There is a list somewhere of everything that the DM has claimed cause cancer (flip flops, being a woman, not being a woman etc.) 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

If the Daily Mail is so terrible and clearly racist then why is it still part of the Royal Rota?

Quote

 

WHICH PUBLICATIONS ARE PART OF THE ROYAL ROTA?

According the Sussexes, the core publications in the royal rota are: The Daily Express, The Daily Mail, The Daily Mirror, The Evening Standard, The Telegraph, The Times, and The Sun.

 

From here.  https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a30480923/prince-harry-megahn-markle-royal-rota-system/

[LittleOwl]

@HerNameIsBuffy I guess it is because they get high traffic and sales.  

For example, The Sun has Page 3 and the Evening Standard is shoved in your face on the tube after work and it's free. 

[acheronbeach]

23 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

If the Daily Mail is so terrible and clearly racist then why is it still part of the Royal Rota?

From here.  https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a30480923/prince-harry-megahn-markle-royal-rota-system/

The royal Rota is an exchange system that allows the BRF some control over the narrative in exchange for access, as I understand it.  

And, despite the grossness of the "femail" section, there is legitimate political and news coverage, and the Mail had a long history in Britain. 

I'd imagine the BRF would prefer to try to keep a dialogue with and some control over the narrative presented to such a big audience.  

[hoipolloi]

Howard Dean has a point:

 

[zee_four]

19 hours ago, treehugger said:

@zee_four, I currently live in Montreal. Although all of my relatives live in rural SW Ontario, so I know what racism you speak of.  I also lived in Alberta and witnessed it there as well.  It seems it is everywhere still ?. 

It would be one thing if it were just my 85 year old grandfather (who passed away about 8-9 years ago) and his brothers and sisters, etc. But it has trickled down. To my uncle's, both the one who played in the NHL and is a businessman down in the states now, and the one who's a hardcore Harley biker who lives in a train caboose in the middle of a cornfield.

 

Worst of all though is it even comes from my cousins (who moved from SW Ontario to Edmonton about 5-6 years ago) born in the 80s like myself. They'd use words like 'coons' and tell inappropriate jokes. They had no problem hanging out with, playing hockey with, working with, etc. PoC but that doesn't mitigate their internalized racism in anyway, it makes it even harder to address.

 

Hoorsy for a SW Ontario connection thougu! My mum's family is from all over Huron County, but on the eastern side mostly along and into Perth County. My mum went to secondary school in Listowel. Living in the states everyone assumes being from Canada, especially Ontario, means Toronto. It's like no think of the complete opposite!

[zee_four]

18 hours ago, dawbs said:

Universally, I hate that argument;  i think it's a variation on telling people w/ legit greivience to quit "playing the X card" (regardless of the race of the writer). And not just the wording (but, also, hate the wording.

I might not see sexism in everything, but damn, I dont get to chose to be less female when it's not convenient-I might "cry sexism "only sometimes, but that doesn't change the sexism microaggressions that I ignore.

Someone only sometimes tackling it seems more like issue exhaustion than convenience 

 

(I know i look "team markle" in this thread, which is interesting because IRL I'm reasonably sure I'd kinda hate her)

Being biracial is tricky. I'm half white and half Polynesian. When I was younger I was much darker, now that I'm older I'm lighter. I definitely pass as white and benefit substantially from white priviledge. I'll never deny that. But that also doesn't make me not Polynesian and fake for claiming that entire half of my ohana and culture. And it's far different than white individuals claiming 1/32 or something Native, and claiming to have the same experience. Bitch please.

 

Other mixed/biracial individuals experience this vice versa, and have to navigate without the same priviledge. We all have a unique journey. Even my two brothers have different physical characteristics than I do, and when we were younger we didn't look related at all.

 

The whole point of this is that its damned if you do damned if you don't for mixed race individuals. We're always accused of faking one part of our heritage, or being an opportunist when it comes to identifying, or a million other hateful things.

 

I am not a Meghan fan at all, I know of people in Toronto, friends of family, that were treated very poorly by her and now with her current behavior, it only validates my original bad impression of her. That said, I will defend her on this specifically as a fellow biracial woman. 

 

[zee_four]

9 hours ago, treehugger said:

@acheronbeach, the only people I ever heard use actual racial slurs were the several of the well off, upper class, older English people who are part of several committees I used to attend.  Most of the racism I’ve seen in rural Canada is less blatant, and aimed more at First Nations Canadians and less at people of colour. 
Edited to add, and also directed towards people of Middle Eastern descent. ?
 

Apso, while I appreciate the jab about who I socialize with, I spend most of my volunteer time with the homeless (who are disproportionately First Nations) and refugees (who are mostly Middle Eastern/African).  Unfortunately when you work in these areas, you hear the worst.  

Right??? @acheronbeach I want to believe you misspoke, because your comment called my and possibly @treehugger'treehugger's communities, as well as families, dumb. They're not perfect but they're not idiotic lesser than trash.

 

EDIT @acheronbeach I saw your reply and apology after I posted my initial response. My apologies for that and thank you for seeing where your original comment could be interpreted as an insult and apologizing for that, even though I know you didn't realize it when you first posted it and in no way meant to insult anyone. Thank you!!!

Edited January 12, 2020 by zee_four
missed @acheronbeach 's response!!