Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon

[clueliss]

I have such issues with this episode.  There are logic issues that I'm still trying to grapple with (in addition to what was said above)
 

Spoiler

Um - who the heck does NOT plan for Euron Greyjoy (and a massive crossbow)?

Why split your depleted troops?

Why not rest - especially the dragons.  (oh wait, yeah, she went toe to toe with Sansa)

And if they did the Jamie/Brienne bit just to make fans happy and then not continue the redemption arc of Jamie I'm gonna be unhappy.  

 

[front hugs > duggs]

Agree about not being too pleased with Dany or Jaimie currently. As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't be too upset if either of them didn't last the season. Also Jon because of Ghost. 

Did anyone see the drama with the Starbucks cup making an appearance in Winterfell during the celebrations? Two years of making these episodes great, and that's slipped through. Either that, or GoT sold it's soul to SB for product placement  

Spoiler

Is Sansa the one who told Tyrion about Jon's true parentage? Did she spill that easily, or did Tyrion know previously? Did Tyrion tell Varys immediately too? People aren't very good at the whole "plz don't tell k thx" thing. Super distrusting of Varys right now, not that I blame him for his concerns.

I honestly don't have any idea who I'm rooting for at this point, I have no theories on how it will end, but I'm okay just sitting and watching and waiting  definitely get a ton of anxiety each episode though !

[Jinder Roles]

This episode is more proof D&D do not give one fuck anymore (lmao at the Starbucks cup)

I found much of the first 40 minutes to be unnecessary.  And too filled with uncharacteristic romantic fluff. 

What is the purpose of these little scenes between Tyrion and Bran? 

Stupid is truly catching in Westeros. The only people free from this affliction are Sansa, Varys and Arya. If they listened to Sansa, they wouldn’t be in this mess. And why in the fuck would you split your depleted troops and head out ON SEA (when you know Euron has a fleet) right to Dragonstone (where they expect you to go) ?!?!?

I don’t know what imaginary humanity Tyrion keeps appealing to in Cersei. 

Jaime is an incestuous fuckboi (unless he’s going to kill Cersei). Brienne didn’t deserve that. She should have visited Tormund’s room. 

Arya clearly sucked Gendry’s soul (I’d like tips) to have him acting this dumb over a one-night stand. 

I’m convinced they’re killing off dragons because of the CGI budget. I also think that’s why the NK was defeated so easily. What other reason would they have to dedicate the last 3 episodes to fluff and Cersei’s terrorist ass? 

Jon continues to be dumb. Why would you send your direwolf away? Idiot. 

I really can’t blame Dany when she pops off and murders everyone next week. There’s only so much a person can take. And she already has Mad Queen tendencies. The poor girl needs therapy. 

RIP to Missandei. She and Grey Worm were supposed to move to Atlanta and be happy.

In conclusion: the rest of this season is about to be some BS, everyone  is stupid, and only Sansa is fit to rule. 

[VelociRapture]

30 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Agree about not being too pleased with Dany or Jaimie currently. As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't be too upset if either of them didn't last the season. Also Jon because of Ghost. 

Did anyone see the drama with the Starbucks cup making an appearance in Winterfell during the celebrations? Two years of making these episodes great, and that's slipped through. Either that, or GoT sold it's soul to SB for product placement  

  Hide contents

Is Sansa the one who told Tyrion about Jon's true parentage? Did she spill that easily, or did Tyrion know previously? Did Tyrion tell Varys immediately too? People aren't very good at the whole "plz don't tell k thx" thing. Super distrusting of Varys right now, not that I blame him for his concerns.

I honestly don't have any idea who I'm rooting for at this point, I have no theories on how it will end, but I'm okay just sitting and watching and waiting  definitely get a ton of anxiety each episode though !

Spoiler

Sansa did tell Tyrion. The pacing of these episodes is much too quick and, unfortunately, that causes issues with how things appear to flow. It would have been better if Sansa had more time onscreen to ponder what to do about the information, not just five minutes between scenes. It makes it seem like she flippantly decided to tell on a whim when that likely wasn’t the case.

But yes, she was clearly kind of torn on whether to say anything or not. I think she told Tyrion specifically for three reasons:

1. She trusts him, which is rare for her at this point and a testament to their bond.

2. She knows he’s going to tell Varys. Sansa isn’t stupid and she studied under Littlefinger, one of the best players in the information game. She knows how secrets turn into vital information. Varys hasn’t made it a secret that his only motivation is the welfare of the realm and people, so having him know there’s another option is probably a good thing in Sansa’s opinion.

3. As Arya says, they do not trust Dany and for good reason. She’s proven at this point that she doesn’t give a shit about the North or its people, while Jon and the Starks clearly do. Dany doesn’t even seem to really care about her own armies either- if she did she wouldn’t have  let them be slaughtered so easily and she would have insisted the survivors be allowed to rest and recover before heading South. The only thing Dany cares about is getting the throne. 

I think Sansa knew exactly what she was doing when she told Tyrion about his parentage. She doesn’t want Dany on the throne because, to be frank, Dany is coming across as an unstable outsider who doesn’t care about any of them. That obviously clashes with Sansa’s primary focuses of keeping herself, her family (Jon included), and her people safe. Jon is someone she knows very well and who she trusts, despite his spotty judgement, to ultimately protect the North. 

To be honest, it’s really refreshing to see deception in a Stark. Jon clearly inherited the “honesty is the best policy even if I lose my head” attitude from Ned abs nothing he’s experienced - even getting straight up murdered- has cured him of that. Sansa, on the other hand, clearly learned some extremely valuable lessons from Tyrion (to an extent), Cersei, Littlefinger, and Ramsay. She knows honesty can get you killed very easily from watching her father get beheaded. Jon’s secret was massive and has insane repercussions regardless of whether anyone found out or not, but Sansa recognizes that Dany is a danger to her family, her people, the realm, and to Jon (especially to Jon) and I’m impressed she chose to act as she did to protect what she cares about rather than do the typical Stark thing of honoring a promise.

 

[clueliss]

By the way - IF Dany gets the iron throne and IF she is indeed not able to have children (her words) who the hell inherits the throne next?  Jon - who doesn't want it?  Gendry (there is a Baratheon/Targaryean genealogy)?  Someone in Dorne (another genealogy tie) that D&D didn't bother to touch?  (Plot holes - I see big ole plot holes)

[front hugs > duggs]

4 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

The pacing of these episodes is much too quick and, unfortunately, that causes issues with how things appear to flow.

Yes! Okay, this is something that I feel like I've been feeling, but hadn't been able to really put my finger on exactly what it is. This really explains a lot. Especially last night, there were a couple of scenes that had me a bit confused and what you said gives a perfect explanation of why. So many conversations or scenes I want more details on, and it hasn't seemed like the info has been kept from us to keep us in the dark. They just haven't had the time to get further into details. For episodes as long as they are, I feel like they could be doing a lot better with how they fill the hour plus.

[Maggie Mae]

This is more proof that the show creators really just want to be done. From following them over the years, I definitely get the impression that they wanted to film the Red Wedding and didn't have too much of a plan after that. 

They could have complely cut Dorne instead of wasting time there with their half-assed interpretation. They could have read the books (or any number of fansites) and realized why Gendry Rivers doesn't make sense. Or why calling Jon Aegon doesn't work either.

They could have asked for more episodes to flesh out this season. But they seem to just want it to be over so they can do something else. 

I'm irritated that they cut the direwolve/warging storyline. They didn't explain anything about Melisandre. Everyone acted in stupid ways - Cersei could have taken out the last dragon, Tyrion, Dany, and Greyworm and most of their army. Why would Euron not circle around and grab more hostages? 

Why didn't we get shadowbinder and Euron's (likely) ambition to raise a Krakon? Why would Tyrion and Varys loudly talk about treason indoors? Why wouldn't they push for wedding Danaerys to Jon? That solves the problem and she knew she might have to wed to make alliences. 

But mostly it's like they forgot their own story with the prophecys and the "break the wheel" speech. 

I'm going to be so happy when this show is over in two weeks.

[clueliss]

The quick pacing also means they cut out things such as - Arya & Sansa's reaction to finding out about Jon's parentage.  Sure we can deduce Sansa's based on her reaction (I may enjoy the fact that Sansa didn't give  rip about Jon wanting to protect his girlfriend).  

[VelociRapture]

42 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

This is more proof that the show creators really just want to be done. From following them over the years, I definitely get the impression that they wanted to film the Red Wedding and didn't have too much of a plan after that. 

They could have complely cut Dorne instead of wasting time there with their half-assed interpretation. They could have read the books (or any number of fansites) and realized why Gendry Rivers doesn't make sense. Or why calling Jon Aegon doesn't work either.

They could have asked for more episodes to flesh out this season. But they seem to just want it to be over so they can do something else. 

I'm irritated that they cut the direwolve/warging storyline. They didn't explain anything about Melisandre. Everyone acted in stupid ways - Cersei could have taken out the last dragon, Tyrion, Dany, and Greyworm and most of their army. Why would Euron not circle around and grab more hostages? 

Why didn't we get shadowbinder and Euron's (likely) ambition to raise a Krakon? Why would Tyrion and Varys loudly talk about treason indoors? Why wouldn't they push for wedding Danaerys to Jon? That solves the problem and she knew she might have to wed to make alliences. 

But mostly it's like they forgot their own story with the prophecys and the "break the wheel" speech. 

I'm going to be so happy when this show is over in two weeks.

Varys basically explained why a wedding won’t happen though. Incest isn’t a big deal to Dany because it was how she was raised, but that’s not the case for Jon. He was raised in the North by the Starks and incest just isn’t something they’re ok with. It goes against everything Jon is. Dany also clearly doesn’t want to share power. I can’t really fault her for that since this has been her life’s work and ambition, but I don’t think Jon would take kindly to being made a token King while she did all the actual ruling - especially if she was making choices he found dangerous, immoral, or downright wrong.

But yeah, I agree that D & D are just over it at this point. It’s extremely disappointing considering just how good the first four or so seasons were. 

1 hour ago, clueliss said:

By the way - IF Dany gets the iron throne and IF she is indeed not able to have children (her words) who the hell inherits the throne next?  Jon - who doesn't want it?  Gendry (there is a Baratheon/Targaryean genealogy)?  Someone in Dorne (another genealogy tie) that D&D didn't bother to touch?  (Plot holes - I see big ole plot holes)

I don’t think Dany has thought that far ahead. Even if she has, I don’t think she cares. They’ve turned her character into basically just a selfish and spoiled brat who only cares about getting her own way, regardless of who gets hurt (the people of Essos, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Tarlys, Missandei) or who she makes into an enemy (Sansa, possibly Arya, and possibly the North in general.)

1 hour ago, Jinder Roles said:

This episode is more proof D&D do not give one fuck anymore (lmao at the Starbucks cup)

I found much of the first 40 minutes to be unnecessary.  And too filled with uncharacteristic romantic fluff. 

What is the purpose of these little scenes between Tyrion and Bran? 

Stupid is truly catching in Westeros. The only people free from this affliction are Sansa, Varys and Arya. If they listened to Sansa, they wouldn’t be in this mess. And why in the fuck would you split your depleted troops and head out ON SEA (when you know Euron has a fleet) right to Dragonstone (where they expect you to go) ?!?!?

I don’t know what imaginary humanity Tyrion keeps appealing to in Cersei. 

Jaime is an incestuous fuckboi (unless he’s going to kill Cersei). Brienne didn’t deserve that. She should have visited Tormund’s room. 

Arya clearly sucked Gendry’s soul (I’d like tips) to have him acting this dumb over a one-night stand. 

I’m convinced they’re killing off dragons because of the CGI budget. I also think that’s why the NK was defeated so easily. What other reason would they have to dedicate the last 3 episodes to fluff and Cersei’s terrorist ass? 

Jon continues to be dumb. Why would you send your direwolf away? Idiot. 

I really can’t blame Dany when she pops off and murders everyone next week. There’s only so much a person can take. And she already has Mad Queen tendencies. The poor girl needs therapy. 

RIP to Missandei. She and Grey Worm were supposed to move to Atlanta and be happy.

In conclusion: the rest of this season is about to be some BS, everyone  is stupid, and only Sansa is fit to rule. 

About Tyrion, I think he’s really struggling this season between loyalty to family and loyalty to Dany. Cersei is loathsome and horrible and has treated him terribly his entire life, but she’s also one of the only family members he has left at this point. I think there is a part of him that loves her to a small extent and that really yearns for love in return. He won’t get it, which just makes it sad to me. Plus, he genuinely believes that she’s pregnant and he’s never been the type of character who was ok with children being harmed (other than when he slapped Joffrey, who fully deserved it.) He knows Dany won’t show mercy to Cersei if she wins, even if she is pregnant. I think this was a last desperate attempt to save what little family he still has left, especially the baby he thinks she’s pregnant with. 

I’m almost positive that Jamie intends to kill Cersei. I don’t think he feels he deserves Brienne because Brienne is such a genuinely loyal and honorable person. I believe Jamie plans to kill Cersei in order to really be free of her influence, but that he also intends to die doing so to really atone for the horrific things he’s done. Either way, dick move to hurt Brienne like that.

Jon was typical Jon Snow again this week - dumb, honest to a fault, and blinded by his oath of loyalty. At least he’s stayed true to his overall character I guess, but it is obnoxious seeing him make the same poor choices over and over again. 

Yeah, if Dany kills everyone in sight next week it’d be a bit understandable at this point. I’d be furious to if I worked my ass off my entire life only for some guy to swoop in last second to get my promotion, a promotion I desperately want and he doesn’t. It would still be ridiculously stupid. So it’ll probably happen. I’m still not buying her really caring about Missandei when the rest of the brown people were so expendable last week though (points to Missandei for her badass last words though - girl had style that’s for sure.) Here’s hoping Greyworm at least makes it since he’s the last non-white as fucking snow character on the show. 

And I’m glad Ghost is going with Tormund. Heading south with Jon would have guaranteed his death (RIP Rhaegal aka. Jon’s shiny new toy.) At least now we know he’s got a pretty solid chance at a happy life with the Wildlings, who will definitely cherish him. He is the goodest boy in all Westeros and I genuinely need him to have a happy ending.

ETA: But yeah, I’m kind of living for Arya’s reaction to Gendry proposing. And that she’s reunited with The Hound for the trip South (though we likely won’t see any of that.) And the Hound’s reaction to Sansa telling him she fed Ramsay to his own hounds. I’m just really loving The Hound lately. He’s great. ?

Edited May 6, 2019 by VelociRapture

[TuringMachine]

I am so frustrated with Jon this season. Last season he was all about standing up for his people, but this seasons he's just doing whatever Dany wants. To be fair to him he just had his life turned upside down, and I'm sure the last thing he wants is to be king. So I kinda get why he's acting this way. But at the same time it's getting hard to root for him when he keeps not doing right by his people. 

[VelociRapture]

Nothing new to add. My husband sent me this though and it’s too accurate not to share here:

Spoiler

?

ETA: I lied.

Spoiler

I do find the parallels between Cersei and Dany interesting recently, especially the fact that they’ve both lost their children and have experienced some pretty severe emotional upheaval as a result. It’ll be interesting to see if Dany loses Drogon too and what impact that’ll have on her. 

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by VelociRapture

[47of74]

Yeah I made the joke too that Starbucks finally expanded to Westeros. 

Spoiler

I wonder if Jaime left because he's going to be the one to take out his sister, that he figures she's so far gone that she has to go and if anyone's going to off his sister it's going to be family that does it and not the long ass line of people jockeying for that honor.  And he told Brienne about all the stuff he did so she wouldn't follow him on what he believes to be a suicide mission? 

I was somewhat disappointed that Brienne wound up with Jaime and not Tormund.  I was so looking forward to those great big monster babies that would go out and get shit done.

 

[TuringMachine]

I'm pretty happy Brienne didn't end up with tormund. Don't get me wrong, he's a much better person than Jamie, but Brienne never showed any interest in him. If she did end up with him it would be perpetuating the (what I think) very problematic trope that if a woman isn't interested in a guy he should just ignore her feeling and keep going after her, and eventually he gets what he wants.

Brienne deserves better than Jamie, but also someone she's actually interested in.

[VelociRapture]

7 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

I'm pretty happy Brienne didn't end up with tormund. Don't get me wrong, he's a much better person than Jamie, but Brienne never showed any interest in him. If she did end up with him it would be perpetuating the (what I think) very problematic trope that if a woman isn't interested in a guy he should just ignore her feeling and keep going after her, and eventually he gets what he wants.

Brienne deserves better than Jamie, but also someone she's actually interested in.

Absolutely agree. Tormund’s interest in Brienne was fantastic because he was interested in her for her strengths and who she was rather than who he thought she should be. He was never interested in changing how she looked or behaved and he was more than ready to cheer her on when Jamie knighted her, regardless of her lack of interest, because he was just genuinely happy for her. His interest in her was relatively pure and healthy all things considered. That said, she clearly had no interest in return and I wouldn't have been happy if she had ended up with him because of that. It would have felt more fan fiction-y than Jamie and Brienne did. I do really like that Tormund didn’t keep pushing her on getting together after finally realizing it wasn’t going to happen. I think that bit (her rejection of him and his disappointment) was handled very well and helped show that he respects her right to say no - something very nice to see on a show that’s had so much rape and sexual violence in the past.

Spoiler

That said, I honestly think that Jamie does care for Brienne. I also think he believes he doesn’t deserve someone like her because she’s so genuinely honorable and loyal when he isn’t. I’m guessing he’s going back to King’s Landing so he can be the one to kill Cersei - an act of both love for Cersei and redemption for the horrific things he’s done to be with her. It’ll be interesting to see if he’s able to do so or if he’s even able to get close to her at all. 

ETA:

Spoiler

I hope Brienne winds up happy, but I don’t think she’ll necessarily need to be in a relationship with anyone for that to happen. I like that she - like all the major female characters - is shown as a multi-faceted and complex human being and I’m glad she was able to explore sex in a way that felt best for her. Same with Arya and Missandei. It was good to see several healthy and consensual relationships/sexual encounters recently... but I don’t think Brienne and Arya necessarily need steady or consistent romantic interests to feel happy or fulfilled. 

I’m feeling that way a bit about Sansa as well lately. She had a horrible second marriage and introduction to sex when Ramsay raped her repeatedly. I think if Sansa eventually does end up with someone it should be many years from now when she’s had time to heal more and it needs to be with someone like Tyrion (though not necessarily him) who not only respects her as a person and acknowledges her skills as a leader, but flat out admires those things about her. 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by VelociRapture

[47of74]

Starbucks' newest location just opened up...

[Mela99]

I have a lot of feelings and emotions related to GoT but my rage is really directed at the piss off that Ghost got, and the shoddy explanation HBO gave. "CGI wolves are hella expensive." Really? REALLY? 

I knew that Grey Worm and Missandei would not be allowed to have a happy ending, but it wasn't the way I would have chosen. 

I want to know what Jamie's motivation is. Did he choose Cersei? Or did he realize he would never be worthy of Brienne? Either way, BOO YOU ONE HANDED WHORE. 

My heart broke for Gendry, but I still think a Stark/Baratheon is in the works.

ETA: I have been cackling over this tweet for weeks.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Mela99
I forgetted

[Maggie Mae]

46 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I have a lot of feelings and emotions related to GoT but my rage is really directed at the piss off that Ghost got, and the shoddy explanation HBO gave. "CGI wolves are hella expensive." Really? REALLY? 

Well, there's that and something about not being able to ship a wolf oversea? They have no concept of practical effects. Plus direwolves are supposed to be MASSIVE. Like on Thor: Ragnarok. A movie that grasps the concept of fantasy and what a direwolf should actually look like! 7 ft tall, people. 

46 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I knew that Grey Worm and Missandei would not be allowed to have a happy ending, but it wasn't the way I would have chosen. 

I kind of guessed that Missandei would be the one to die so that Grey Worm could go back and watch over Naath but i didn't think it would be so brutal. (And unrealistic, really.) Now Greyworm is going to go mad rage and storm Kingslanding with Dany and maybe he'll die to. 

And anyway, more character assassination. "We are a peaceful people." "burn them all!" 

46 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I want to know what Jamie's motivation is. Did he choose Cersei? Or did he realize he would never be worthy of Brienne? Either way, BOO YOU ONE HANDED WHORE. 

Maybe he realized that Cersei had Qyburn send Bronn to kill him, so he was like "oh, hey, I need to go kill her now because she sucks." (The actor who plays Cersei and the actor who plays Bronn used to date and they had it written into their contracts to never be on set together. Personally, I think they could have just killed off one of them, or sent Bronn back to marry Lollys and just not pay the actor, leaving more money for GHOST.) 

 

Do we know what happened to Davos? You know, the guy who smuggled food in to Storms End at great personal risk, because he hates the idea of people starving and siege warfare? The guy who grew up in Flea Bottom (the poor part of KingsLanding, you know, where the poor, starving people will be before they revolt?) The guy who is experienced with sailing and smuggling and finding ways into cities? You'd think he'd have some words for the gang about their "plan". You'd think they would have stuck him on a boat. But I guess remember the past of the show you are writing and producing is a lot of work. Let's just give them some slack. It's HARD to remember to throw away your coffee cup or view an episode on a basic tv in a room with basic lighting. It's EXPENSIVE and TIME CONSUMING to remember all the of parts of the show that you created. 

Two more weeks. 

 

[BernRul]

So is everyone just gaslighting Dany all of a sudden? Am I taking crazy pills?

Why are Varys and Tyrion acting like they're 21st century woke? ,

1. "Oh, no, Dany talks about how she wants to be queen!" Like yeah, this is a time period where people believe in a divine right to rule and the Targaryens were god tier for 300 hundred years. Seven hells, even Robert Baratheon got the throne because he had Targaryen blood.  "Jon doesn't want the throne, so he's the best king." No one in Westeros would think like that!

2. "We can't burn the Red Keep, people will die!" So? I'm a pacifist, but that's not how the ruling class in Westeros thinks. Very few of them give a shit about the common people. Dany is actually one of the few people who does! But oh no she's mad...okay. Dany is a Conquerer. Conquerers conquer. Tyrion wasn't crying about all the people he killed at Blackwater Bay. Varys didn't give a shit when Rhaegar's wife and children were slaughtered--he still supported Robert, at least outwardly. Again, why are they acting like 21st century liberals? 

3. "Executing the Tarlys is crazy!" Really? Cuz it wasn't when Jon literally executed a child. Or how about when Jon beheaded Janos Slynt for defying his order? Jon didn't even give Janos a chance to repent--but Dany explicitly offered to pardon the Tarlys. They basically said, "fuck no, we'd rather both be bbq" in front of both armies. 

4. "Dany, don't burn the Red Keep. Starve the population instead." Okay? Like, seriously? This is the moral solution? At least dragon fire is a quick death. 

And let's not forget the Stark girls.

1. Sansa is no Littlerfinger, though the show sure wants us to think she is. Why the fuck is she outwardly defying the so-called Mad Queen? That's the kind of thing that should get your head chopped off! The whole point of Littlefinger is schemeing behind people's back, not insulting them to their face. But "she's the smartest person I know." Bullshit.

2. Also, shut up with Sansa's ungrateful ass. Dany didn't have to come North and sacrifice half her army to defend your home, but she did it anyway and got no credit.

3. And what about Arya's "she's not family." Okay, so Starks are only loyal to family? Since when? I recall that being a very Cersei Lannister thing to say.

At this point, I'm just like burn them all, Dany, burn all those ungrateful ass traitors. The show is telling us that she's supposed to be crazy, but she's actually quite reasonable as far as her actions go. Such shitty writing.

#TeamBurnThemAll

 

[BernRul]

Also, in the books Tyrion says he wants to join up with Dany because, "I want to rape and kill Cersei, not necessarily in that order." That the show is deadset on St. Tyrion but is suddenly telling us that Dany is evil after 8 seasons is ridiculous. 

I'm also salty about the character assassination of my favorite character, Jaime. Jaime's redemption arc in the books and season 3 of the show is some of the best writing that GRRM's done. In the books, Cersei sends him a letter begging for help when she's in trouble with the High Sparrow, and Jaime turns his back on her to go off with Brienne instead. But now he's going to break Brienne's heart for Cersei?!?

As a diehard Braime shipper (love their subtle relationship progression in the books and the chemistry between the actors), they couldn't even let me enjoy my ship becoming canon. 

[BernRul]

This is such bullshit. I read the leaks last week hoping they weren't true. I'm glad I did, because I was emotionally prepared. None of that was earned or made sense and they destroyed two of my favorite characters.

[Mela99]

I'm... I don't even know right now.

I'm not happy with this episode, I don't think. The only thing I genuinely liked was Clegane having genuine affection for Arya. 

Spoiler

THAT'S how Jamie and Cersei die? Really? REALLY? I mean, I have hated Cersei from the get go, and I am not sad to see her dead (and it was a lot nicer of a way to go than she deserved), but Jamie had SUCH A GOOD REDEMPTION/ARC. And he runs back to Cersei. They just took a giant dump on his character.

My heart broke for Tyrion. 

 

[Jinder Roles]

Okay. My thoughts may change but: 

1. Arya should have died, to truly show the cost of war and violence. They should have stripped her of this god-complex we now have of her, made her vulnerable and killed her. All this plot armour is annoying. 

2. Tyrion is dumb. But I actually don’t mind. The reason he can’t get on Varys  level is because he suspends disbelief for people he cares about. Varys doesn’t do that, he works with what he has. 

3. Lol, Bran has all this power and warging ability and does nothing? Lame. 

4. I hate that precious HBO money is wasted on Euron. Ugh 

5. Initially, the way Cersei died was annoying. But, not every death has to be violent. To die cowering, scared and defeated is something she can’t stand (but deserved) 

6. The moment between the Hound and Arya was one of the best. Would have meant more if she died (I love Arya y’all but I’ll happily watch my faves die to enhance the show) 

7. Kinda wish Jaime killed Cersei and them himself as an act of rebellion and love. It would have fulfilled the Valonquar prophecy. 

8. Daenerys snapped. But she isn’t crazy, she’s vengeful and at her wits end. Vengeance is awful, especially when someone has that much power. Missandei was the straw that broke the camel’s back. 

9. Speaking of, I loved the wildfire. It was a through back to the Mad King but also to how the Targaryens conquered in the first place - fire and blood. I’m glad we got to see that. 

 

[TuringMachine]

I can't even think about the rest of this episode because I'm so mad about Jamie. So glad I cared about his character for 8 seasons for them to just throw all his development out the window.

[47of74]

And tonight....

Spoiler

....we finally had Cleganebowl!

I was sad to see The Hound go but at least he went out ridding the world of The Mountain.

I wonder if Jon is going to move against Dany now that he had a front row seat to her madness.  I guess we'll have to wait until next week to find out.

 

[VelociRapture]

A few thoughts:

1. Varys has always been clear in both the books and the show that he doesn’t care who rules as much as he cares for the actual people they are ruling. It makes complete sense he’d act as he did once he realized Dany’s goals weren’t aligning with his own anymore. I am sorry to see him go because he really was one of the more interesting characters to watch.

2. Tyrion on the show is physically and developmentally a different character than Tyrion in the books. He makes dumb choices and mistakes, but I think what makes him a more relatable character is he does those things with decent intentions. He knows soldiers die during war, but he doesn’t want innocent children to die if it can be avoided and I give him credit for doing his best to save them.

3. I think @Jinder Rolesis right. Arya should have died to drive home the full impact of Dany’s choice to raze the city to the ground. I’m glad she was at least there though because she helped provide a valuable view into the full scale of the destruction. If she had died though, she would have had to have died in front of Jon’s eyes in my opinion. Nothing would drive home the consequences of Dany’s choice the way witnessing his beloved little sister’s death would. 

4. I think the seeds for this were planted a very long time ago, both in the show and the books. We’ve seen how Dany reacts to the deaths of her enemies in a pretty unfeeling and detached way before. It’s almost unsettling how cold and detached she can be at times - a lot of other characters (the Starks, Davos, Tyrion, Cersei at times) haven’t reacted that way. We’ve seen her willing to use her Dragons, which are basically WMDs, to snuff out her enemies as well. She also has a history of claiming to care about the common people, but not following through in a way that leads to sustainable long term change for the good. Martin has also made it very clear that a major theme of the stories is the idea that power can corrupt even the most decent and good characters as well. I don’t know if this is how he intends to end his books exactly because there are storylines and characters not included on the show to consider, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he was building towards something like this. 

5. I’m pissed they tossed out all that development Jamie made over the years. I think that was a good way for Cersei to go though - she showed one last ounce of humanity was left in her when she cried for her unborn child rather than for herself. And I guess you could argue the prophecy was still fulfilled since his arms were clearly around her neck as the rocks crushed them both.

6. Thank Rufus Euron is gone. What a waste of a character. But where the fuck is Yara with her fleet?

@BernRul I’m going to take some time to defend the Stark sisters.

Dany absolutely needed to go North when she did - her Westerosi allies were all either dead or captured at that point and an alliance with the North was her best bet for a new ally she desperately needed. Jon made it clear he wouldn’t join her unless she helped him too. She basically had no options other than agree to help him with the Night King. There’s also the fact that ruling Westeros wouldn’t matter much when everyone was dead via the Night King, something she realized after saving the Fellowship of the King on their idiotic journey behind the Wall.

Dany didn’t need to sacrifice her armies to defend Winterfell because there were far better ways to defend the castle. The fact that she lost her armies is pretty much a result of poor planning and Dany deserves a great deal of blame for that since she likely agreed to it. Sansa absolutely should have acknowledged Dany’s contributions at some point, but Jon also shouldn’t have acted like Dany saved everyone simply by being there. She didn’t. Arya did, as both Dany and Sansa pointed out and which Jon never acknowledged either. He has a bad history of belittling or ignoring his sisters’ contributions. And for allowing people to give him full credit when he should share it (like Tormund’s comment about riding dragons at the celebration feast or allowing himself to be named King in the North when Sansa was just as much a reason for their victory as he was.)

When Dany first arrives at Winterfell she seems to almost expect everyone to immediately pledge loyalty to her, which is weird considering Jon specifically warned her that Northerners do not trust outsiders. Sansa did her duty by offering basic civility and hospitality, but that wasn’t enough for Dany - which, again, is weird to me because she was warned by Jon. She was already angry at that point and it only got worse when Sansa questioned her publicly about how they were supposed to feed her army and dragons when that wasn’t something they had known to plan for in advance - pretty valid concerns that Dany brushed aside instead of answering. They almost had a breakthrough moment when they spoke privately together, but the wedge between them has always been the welfare and future of the North. Dany wants complete control of the Seven Kingdoms, something Sansa and the Northern Lords clearly don’t want. Neither wants to budge and that was bound to lead to trouble between them.

Dany has every right to be angry for a multitude of reasons. I’d be pissed too if I sacrificed and worked my entire life for a promotion only to see some guy - who doesn’t even want the promotion - come out of nowhere at the last second to take it away. Not to mention the significant losses she’s suffered or the fact that she clearly understands she’s very much an outsider in her own homeland. But I think Sansa has valid reason to be angry as well. She’s the one who convinced Jon to fight for Winterfell against Ramsay. She saved Jon’s sorry ass when he was an idiot during the Battle of the Bastards. She’s ruled competently and fairly in Jon’s absence. Does he ever give her credit though? Any thanks? No. He continually ignores her contributions, underestimates her constantly, and never once thanks her for helping to reunite their family in their childhood home. When it comes to something as major as deciding to bend the knee to Dany - a decision that impacts the future of the entire North - he acts without at least consulting Sansa or the Northern Lords first and then has the audacity to be pissy about it when they are understandably less than enthused.

I think Jon handled things poorly and there wouldn’t be such big issues between Dany and his sisters/cousins if he had had the sense to at least introduce Dany to everyone prior to aligning himself with her. Arya is right that he did what was best by bending the knee, but she’s also right to remind him that no one really trusts Dany because they don’t know her - Jon didn’t give anyone time to know her prior to hitching their futures and welfare to her wagon. She’s an unknown factor and unknown factors can be dangerous in their world, especially when they have Dragons and their eye on the Iron Throne - a goal the Northerners don’t care about because they want their independence. 

I don’t find it weird that Arya would say that about family either at this point. Arya, Sansa, Bran, and Jon all went through different versions of Hell to be reunited and it makes complete sense to me that they’d cling to one another more than ever as a result - they are all that’s left of their family at this point. Not only that, but Sansa and Arya have both learned in their own ways that outsiders need to earn trust rather than be given it freely. They’ve seen first hand what blind loyalty and unconditional honor can get you by looking at what happened to their father. The Starks aren’t the Starks Ned and Catelyn knew anymore because they’ve had to evolve to survive and sticking together is one of the best ways for them to protect each other.

All in all, I think the writers really messed up Dany’s character and Jon’s role in everything and that’s why Sansa is clashing with her so openly. Sansa seems to be remaining pretty true to her development over the course of the show, but they accelerated Dany's developmental spiral so drastically that it just doesn’t come across as reasonable or believable at this point. I think they made a mistake by not having more seasons to work with because everything is moving too quickly to be believable. Martin himself even said at some point that this shouldn’t have been the final season, indicating that he feels there was a lot more material they could have covered to help explain things more fully. I think the show runners just really messed up trying to wrap everything up and it’s showing badly in their treatment of Dany. There were better ways of reaching this point that would have been more plausible and less gimmicky.