EU Politics

[fraurosena]

Sadly, but not unexpectedly, things got out of hand during the night in Rotterdam. After the Turkish minister was escorted out of the country, riots broke out and our ME had to intervene. Watercanons had to be used on about 1000 Turkish rioters to keep them from looting an pillaging. 15 people were arrested, 7 people were injured.

The WSJ has an article about the situation:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/erdogan-slams-netherlands-for-blocking-turkish-minister-1489240515?mod=e2tw

The Turks are accusing the Netherlands of not letting them hold speeches to their citizens living here. This however, is not quite true. There are no objections to holding speeches at all. However, we do have certain rules and regulations to which everyone, Dutch, Turkish, German, American, Japanese, no matter who you are or where you come from, has to adhere. These rules and regulations are in place to ensure public order and safety when large amounts of people are expected to show up. These rules and regulations are not new, and certainly haven't suddenly been made up to pester the Turks or keep them from informing their eligible voters on the Turkish referendum. 

Dutch officials were in talks with the Turks about these rules and regulations and how things could be arranged properly. Whilst these talks were still ongoing, the Turkish minister publicly announced that the Dutch could expect economical and political sanctions if they couldn't hold the planned manifestation. Things escalated from there.

I'm sorry to say that the Turkish rioters are seen by many to be proving the unfavorable views many rightwing people have. It certainly doesn't help to lessen any tensions. I hope these tensions between people fizzle out in the coming days, but I'm afraid the scene has been set for greater polarization. Things are not looking good... 

 

[prayawaythefundie]

10 hours ago, fraurosena said:

The Dutch ambassador has been told he isn't welcome in Turkey anymore... 

That is some escalation!

[fraurosena]

1 minute ago, prayawaythefundie said:

That is some escalation!

The embassy has been closed off, as well as Dutch consulates in three Turkish cities. It's so childish and neener-ish.

[fraurosena]

Well, things are still escalating. 

https://www.rt.com/news/380362-dutch-flag-protest-istanbul-turkey/

 

[fraurosena]

Such reconciliatory words...

https://www.rt.com/news/380385-erdogan-says-netherlands-will-pay-price/

It seems he doesn't realize that the economic relationship between our countries is balanced heavily in our favor, not Turkey's. They barely rank #25 in the list of countries we import from, and they rank #14 in the list of countries we export to.

The Netherlands are in the top three international investors in Turkey. The consequences of cessation of these investments (should a trade war between the Dutch and the Turks occur as a result of this diplomatic dispute) are detrimental to the Turkish economy.

 

[samurai_sarah]

14 hours ago, fraurosena said:

(snip)What the everloving fuck? The Dutch people are now an ethnic group in their own country ? 

(snip)

OT: Don't let it bother you too much. It's just a PC way of speaking that's used in the social sciences for clarity as to which group is meant. For example, while I'm German, I don't belong to the ethnic German majority in Germany, because I'm half Korean. I'm part of an ethnic minority, so if I want to be specific about which "sort" of Germans, I am speaking about, I'll use terms like "ethnic German". That isn't meant to insult anyone, it's just for purposes of clarity.

Sorry, if I am mansplaining. The social scientist in me couldn't help it.

 

[Red Jumper]

14 hours ago, fraurosena said:

Quote

the ethnic Dutch majority who are keen to preserve Dutch traditions and limit immigration.

What the everloving fuck? The Dutch people are now an ethnic group in their own country ? 

I think this should be read as "the Dutch, without anybody else living in the Netherlands who is not Dutch" = "ethnic Dutch". So If I would move to the Netherlands that would not make me "ethnic Dutch" because you cannot never change your ethnicity.

This actually avoids the problem we have when we talk about "the Dutch": this would in contrast include everyone with the Dutch citizenship, no matter if newly immigrated or calling this his home country forever.

Is that understandable?

[fraurosena]

Oh, I get what they meant. The wording is rather odd though. Ethnic means 'sub-group of a main group'. So, taking the wording literally, the sentence said that the Dutch were a sub-group in their own country. 

That was what I was reacting to. The wording, not the meaning. In an eye-brow raising way, not an angry way. If that makes sense...

(and I realize that my wording could - and has - lead to confusion )

Communication is difficult. 

[Red Jumper]

5 hours ago, fraurosena said:

I'm sorry to say that the Turkish rioters are seen by many to be proving the unfavorable views many rightwing people have.

This doesn't come as a surprise to me. I am not right-wing, I am not living in a country where this riot directly effects me. Nevertheless, it drives me up the wall. They* feel so entitled to do everything everywhere in their way. *By they i mean turkish politicans; however this is transfered to people if I would see riots coming from that

[Red Jumper]

3 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

 So, taking the wording literally, the sentence said that the Dutch were a sub-group in their own country.

Actually that holds true: Until there is a country with only people with one (1) ethnicity the X are only a subgroup of a country X'.

How would you say it in Dutch (language)? In my native language it easily would become "the true Dutch". This would lead to discussion who is included in "true" Dutch with a finger-pointing to Nazi-rules of being x generations Aryan/quarter-jews and stuff.

So I truly agree: Communication is difficult.

But so worth it

 

[fraurosena]

6 minutes ago, Red Jumper said:

Actually that holds true: Until there is a country with only people with one (1) ethnicity the X are only a subgroup of a country X'.

How would you say it in Dutch (language)? In my native language it easily would become "the true Dutch". This would lead to discussion who is included in "true" Dutch with a finger-pointing to Nazi-rules of being x generations Aryan/quarter-jews and stuff.

So I truly agree: Communication is difficult.

But so worth it

 

Oh my gosh, you opening a can of worms there! The english word 'Dutch' is actually derived from 'Deutch'. Which, as you know, means German! 

So, the Dutch as such don't even exist.  

What are we to be called then? In my language we call ourselves 'Netherlanders' (freely translated). To complicate things, sometimes we also refer to ourselves as Hollanders. We even call our country Holland sometimes. I know many Germans (and others) call us that too. But strictly speaking it is only really true for an ethnic group of Netherlanders, namely, the people from two of our provinces, North Holland and South Holland.

A funny side-note: a large part of what would/could in your words be called "the true Dutch" are actually of German ancestry. In the 17th century there was a great influx of fortune-seeking Germans into our country, because at the time Germany was relatively poor, and the Netherlands were rich - the so-called Golden Era in our history. 

Oh, and I haven't even mentioned the Frisians. They have their own people (the Frisians), their own province (Friesland) and even their own official language (Frisian)... They are Frisian, Dutch, Netherlanders (but don't call them Hollanders... ha).
To complicate matters further, there is a region called West-Friesland in North Holland. They are Hollanders though, and most certainly not Frisian. (You may refer to them as west-frisian hollanders, thank you very much).

And then there are the Flemish. Who are Belgians now, but up until about 200 years ago, were also part of the Netherlands. They speak Flemish, which is just a - Netherlandish?... ok Dutch - dialect really. So they are Flemish, and Belgian, and speak Dutch, or Flemish.

Speak of complicated! 

 

[Red Jumper]

I love our European history.

The idea that the Dutch do no exist is hilarious. So you are not subgroup of a country that has no name (Dutch=Deutsch=German so Netherlands=Germanland=Germany which is somewhere else). So no-one said nothing nowhere?

I didn't know that Frisian is a language too. I thought this was a version of Platt /plat (German vs Dutch) - Is there an English word for that? Is plat/Platt officially a language? I thought it to be a dialect group under the German umbrella?

 

[fraurosena]

1 minute ago, Red Jumper said:

I love our European history.

The idea that the Dutch do no exist is hilarious. So you are not subgroup of a country that has no name (Dutch=Deutsch=German so Netherlands=Germanland=Germany which is somewhere else). So no-one said nothing nowhere?

I didn't know that Frisian is a language too. I thought this was a version of Platt /plat (German vs Dutch) - Is there an English word for that? Is plat/Platt officially a language? I thought it to be a dialect group under the German umbrella?

 

European history is fascinating, indeed!

Frisian is in fact a real/true language. It's linguistically interrelated with English (Anglo- which is also Germanic) and German (the Platt you refer to, which indeed does influence the dialects spoken in the eastern provinces of the Netherlands). Friesland doesn't border on Germany though.

Funny thing is, as I am fluent in both Dutch and English, and also have a passable knowledge of German, I can actually follow along when Frisian is spoken (though I can't understand everything, I get the gist of what's being said).

German and Dutch are both Germanic languages of course, and very closely related. Weird factoid: the dialect spoken in the Erzgebirge region very, very closely resembles Dutch. German words are pronounced exactly the same as the simalar word in Dutch (for example the German word 'Haus' is pronounced exactly like the Dutch word 'huis' - both words share the same roots and have the same meaning). I find it easier to understand that dialect than I do 'regular' (high) German. The resemblance is rather interesting, because that region does not border on/ is near to the Netherlands at all.

By the way, did you know that 60% of English words have Germanic roots? If you look at Old English texts, they are easier to understand for Germanic speaking people than they are for modern English speakers. The other 40% of English words have French (Romanic) roots, as Britain was first invaded by the Danes, Angles, Saxons (all Germanic speaking) and later by the Normans (who, to complicate matters, were themselves of Norwegian/Swedish/Danish/Germanic - ok, Viking - decent, but came from Normandy in France and therefore spoke French).

I like language. Complicated and fascinating!

[Red Jumper]

That is so fascinating.

My first Latin teacher claimed English is 63.5% Latin (i still remember the odd % just because i kept wondering where that number came from).

Funny anecdote:  When i was still living at my parents home we had acquaintances of mine from England staying a couple of days. My mother speeks French fluently and is quite good at Latin but her English only basic to mediocre.  When i was at work and she didn't know a word she guessed what it could be by deriving from French+Latin. The guest late told me that my mother's English is soooo complicated because she used obscure, super-long words instead of ordinary ones .  But they could talk to each other and the guests had a nice stay

[fraurosena]

I guess teachers don't agree then, because my English teacher in (our equivalent of) high school told us the percentages I mentioned. 

French is a so-called romanic language like Spanish, Portuguese and of course Italian, and they all more or less derive from Latin. So it's no surprise your mother's combinations made her understandable to English speakers. It is  a funny story, though. Made me giggle.

[samurai_sarah]

4 hours ago, fraurosena said:

(snip)

So, the Dutch as such don't even exist.  

(snip)

LOL -if the Dutch don't exist, I'm in a bit of bother right now. I'm currently sitting in Amsterdam Schiphol, waiting to fly out with KLM. It would be very inconvenient to find out right now that the Dutch don't exist.

[fraurosena]

3 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

LOL -if the Dutch don't exist, I'm in a bit of bother right now. I'm currently sitting in Amsterdam Schiphol, waiting to fly out with KLM. It would be very inconvenient to find out right now that the Dutch don't exist.

Well, Amsterdam is in North Holland, where the Hollanders reside. So no worries, you're among good people. I should know. I'm one. Hollander I mean. 

Oh, and if you happen to be flying east, make sure to wave just before you pass over the IJsselmeer, as you just might be flying over my house then. I'll make sure to wave back! 

[Red Jumper]

I hope the staff on the plane aren't Dutch. Y you might be seeing Hollanders right now but then there is no-one flying the machine. Unless you you want to practize your flying skills this would even be more than "a be a little bit inconvenient" My KLM flights were using Hollanders obviously as there was plenty of staff present back then. So I think you have a high chance of seeing someone skilled and nice.

[fraurosena]

And after that seriously entertaining thread drift, back to some serious matters.

According to one of our news sites, the diplomatic dispute with Turkey could have far-reaching consequences for the EU. "Something like this has never happened before. Tensions are so high that the Dutch Ambassador has been told not to return to Turkey for the time being," says journalist Olaf Koens. He adds that tensions between Turkey and the Netherlands will be felt in other EU countries as well. "In the broader view," he says, " there are important deals with Turkey, for example about refugees. Trust has now been eroded to such a degree, that this could be up for discussion again."

In Turkey people are divided on the matter. This situation is playing into the hands of Erdogan supporters. The current tensions are in their interests, because according to polls the no-voters on the referendum to give Erdogan more power are ahead of the yes-voters. At the same time, the Turkish ministry of Economic Affairs has said that sanctions wouldn't be such a good idea, as they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Erdogan himself  had harsh words for the Netherlands today. He spoke of nazi-practices and called the Netherlands a 'banana-republic'.

[fraurosena]

Here's a comprehensive article from the NJT that outlines the troubles with Turkey:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/12/world/europe/netherlands-recep-tayyip-erdogan-turkey.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

 

[faraway]

This whole situation is completely fucked up and I'm not really sure what I want our politicians to do. Definetly not kneel to Erdogan but the Dutch approach doesn't seem approriate to me either. 

In order for the Turkish people to see the light, their government probably needs to fail them. If the tourism and the entire economy went down Erdogan would loose popularity fast. However, that would happen at the expense of many innocent people. 

What I do find: The dual citizenship for Turks in Germany should be banned. I don't think it's healthy for both countries to have a substantial number of people live in a cushy first world country vote on the fate of people in a country they think they know so well but have possibly never even lived in.

[fraurosena]

Fidan Ekiz, a Turkish Dutch columnist for the AD, has a great op-ed on the whole 'Turkish tumult'. I find this 'insider' view refreshing, and hopeful.

http://www.ad.nl/dossier-rel-met-turkije/waarom-fidan-ekiz-zo-boos-is-over-de-turkijerel~a443a7af/

As the article is in Dutch, I have translated the text for the majority of readers here. 

Quote

“Allahuekber” (Allah is great!) the mob chants by the Turkish consulate on the Schiedamse Vest in Rotterdam. The situation is hectic and tense. I’m talking with protesters. My phone rings, the radio’s calling, on my display it says ‘NOS’ [a Dutch broadcasting company]. “You’re going to tell lies, huh!” an agitated young man cries. “I know who you are.” I must decide quickly: either I walk away, or I enter a senseless discussion. My common sense loses, and I let out all of my frustration. Within seconds an acrimonious dispute ensues. “Why does it bother you if we cry ‘Allahuekber’” one of the lads asks me in Turkish. His name is Ismail. “What’s wrong with you,” he continues. “Who’s side are you on?” We’re looking each other in the eyes. “I didn’t know it was war,” I say.

He’s told to calm down by other young men. One of them, Seyfettin, speaks to me calmly. “We’re just fed up. The Netherlands is using double standards. We’re being excluded. You should go out with your head covered, like my sister, and you’ll find out.”

A few hours later all hell breaks loose.

Around midnight, when I head back home, I find that I’m shaking. I hadn’t even noticed before. What is it, that bothers me so? I try to find the answer, but because of all the adrenaline, I can’t think clearly. In a few hours, I’ll be a guest on WNL broadcasting, where Prime Minister Rutte will also be, to talk about the ‘Turkish Tumult’. I can’t sleep a wink. Wide awake, I listen to the police helicopters flying overhead. Suddenly my despondence turns into anger. We have just had all those tensions within the Turkish community after the unsuccessful Turkish coup, and now this. Damn. You live in this country, you enjoy the freedom of this country, you raise your children in this country, but you cry out your love for a man who is changing the country where your parents and ancestors come from into an autocracy. You are delivering all those people, half of whom don’t want this, over to a legitimately chosen dictator, while you profit from all the achieved freedoms of Dutch civilization.

Betrayed

My emotions are personal as well: I feel betrayed. As a journalist, first as a correspondent in Turkey, now from within the Netherlands, I try to exert myself against polarization in the Netherlands, I, and many others with me, constantly try to nuance the negative views of migrants, Turkish Dutch and of Turkey itself. In one fell swoop these efforts have been brought to naught.

For years, the Netherlands have left the door open to ultra-nationalistic, religious and reactionary groups such as Milli Görüs and the Grey Wolves. All manner of available resources could be made use of, so these Turkish organizations were able to penetrate deeply into the Turkish community in the Netherlands. The end product was to be seen in Rotterdam this weekend – waving Turkish flags, chanting loudly – destroying everything my parents and generations after them have built up in the Netherlands.

I also refuse to just be an on-looker on as the country of my forebears, where courageous people have died and offered themselves for democracy, freedom and equality, where my family has its future, is brought down.

The next morning, in Amsterdam, during the broadcast of WNL on Sunday, I tell [the host] Rick Nieman that I felt quite alone there, between all those flag-waving Erdogan-supporters at the consulate.

But I know that I am not alone. I know that there is a silent majority of Dutch Turks that distance themselves from what happened this weekend in Rotterdam. These people are fed up with having to bridge this chasm wherein they also have to account for their loyalty to the Netherlands – which isn’t wrong – because they are being dragged along in the sinister, dark world wherein Erdogan is god and the Netherlands are a country of ‘fascists and nazi’s’. The protesters at the consulate are not the norm. We – the silent majority – must let our voices be heard. We have a world to gain: for the future, for our children.

 

[fraurosena]

My big friend, Keith Olbermann weighing in on the Turkey tumult;

 

[prayawaythefundie]

Wannabe sultan is now trying to make the Srebrenica massacre into a genocide committed by the Dutch! Has he lost his mind or just his history books?

[fraurosena]

24 minutes ago, prayawaythefundie said:

Wannabe sultan is now trying to make the Srebrenica massacre into a genocide committed by the Dutch! Has he lost his mind or just his history books?

Definitely both!