Secular/non-Abrahamic fundies

[Constance Vigilance]

Seriously! Back in the "good old days", people like this got hauled off to the psych hospital and were never heard from again. Granted, in those "good old days", a lot of people also got hauled off to the psych hospital who shouldn't have been, but the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction now. This woman definitely needs a one-way ride out of free society.

Oh, for the days when the mentally ill were hauled away and never seen again! Oh, for locked rooms, for long-term sedation, for physical and sexual abuse, for nonpersonhood, for despair and pain. That's what we need back again, ladies and gentlemen, and I volunteer J-Watcher as first on the wagon. It seems only fair.

[valsa]

So fundies=crazies, basically?

Basically. I typically use FSTDT's definition:

A usually religious person or entity characterized by one or more of the following: an extreme lack of rationality, fondness of logical fallacies, repeated use of emotional appeals, rigid adherence to Bronze Age mythology, endorsement of pseudoscientific nonsense, opposition to the First Amendment, bigotry and discriminatory attitudes towards minority groups, belief that certain children's media is the work of Satan, and propensity to post Bible verses instead of valid argument.

It should be noted that one can be religious--even a fundamentalist--but not actually attain the vaunted status of "fundie," which needs that special touch only people fitting stereotypical caricatures can provide. Additionally, religion is technically not even a pre-requisite for this, although blind adherence to its ideologies (and those of politics) is perhaps the #1 source of fundies in the universe. Rigid, arrogant, "know-it-all-and-confidently-force-it-on-everyone-else" authoritarian strains of both amplify the propensity to fundyism, while more moderate, "this-seems-like-a-good-idea-but-might-be-wrong, so-let's-not-be-total-jackasses-about-it" varieties can keep it in check or even undermine it.

You can be a religious fundamentalist and not be a fundie. You can also be completely secular and be a fundie.

[JesusFightClub]

I'd define a secular fundie as someone who uses the same approach/methodology/attitude as a religious fundie: incorrigible, my-way-is-the-highway, proselytizing/coercing others to their position, unreceptive to criticism, extreme in views (while positing views as mainstream) and generally obnoxious.

Ah. That was me as a radical lefty 15 years ago :P

SOTO, since encountering FJ, I worry about this.

FJ has showed me a bit how to take the correct line without being an arsehole. However, I always think in terms of the line. And that is a fundy trait.

[WanderingStar]

My rather simple definition of a fundie is someone that believes in something strongly enough that they will go to any length to be sure you hear about how you should be believing/practicing [whatever] too, or else you're either going to hell, you're a corrupt individual, you're ruining yourself, et cetera, even if in doing so they make themselves look like a complete asshole. Now as you see, that "something", or that "whatever" doesn't have to be religion, so it's quite possible to be a nonreligious fundie. As it is, I have a Facebook friend who I'm pretty sure is an atheist but she's so pushy about her veganism that her wall posts are pretty much nothing but anti-meat and anti-dairy propaganda (some of which is incredibly offensive) and I have all of her posts hidden. So, I'd say she's a fundie in that regard.

If the woman at Graveyard Dirt is insistent that her practices are the only way to be a good Pagan, I'd consider that as fundie behavior, but it sounds like she's not. I wouldn't know. I don't plan on going to her creeptastic, utterly fucked up blog to find out :shock: Thanks for the heads-up about the roadkill pictures, now I know to stay at least 100 feet away from there.

[Soldier of the One]

SOTO, since encountering FJ, I worry about this.

FJ has showed me a bit how to take the correct line without being an arsehole. However, I always think in terms of the line. And that is a fundy trait.

But surely, as a scientific socialist, the 'line' should be determined by observable facts and a flawless Marxist analysis? Otherwise Marxism really does become dogma...

I think you're pretty hardcore. But an asshole? No. :)

[JesusFightClub]

The analysis is correct. I am not worried there.

What I am worried about is people with different opinions. Even if they are wrong we need to find out why. Perhaps there is a mistake we did not get? Why are they wrong, what motivates them? It won't be Teh Ebil. There may be something which could be quite important.

Er, not for all ;) But FJ may not be where I would want to discuss that.

[Soldier of the One]

The analysis is correct. I am not worried there.

What I am worried about is people with different opinions. Even if they are wrong we need to find out why. Perhaps there is a mistake we did not get? Why are they wrong, what motivates them? It won't be Teh Ebil. There may be something which could be quite important.

Er, not for all ;) But FJ may not be where I would want to discuss that.

JFC, I think that's an issue most of us deal with in varying degrees, even when we're not 'fundies' or 'extremists'. I think tons of people are 'wrong' all the time (including religious fundies, obviously) but that doesn't mean I automatically think they are horrible people. I try to evaluate my own positions all the time: how do I know I'm 'right'? Is there a way of knowing? Can multiple truths exist alongside each other? What truths should I never compromise on? And yes, finding out why people choose to believe whatever they believe is valuable because it helps you understand both them and the social context that allowed for those beliefs to emerge. And as a Marxist you know that 'social context' is where it's all at :)

[Esther]

She sounds like a nutcase.

Also, I totally approve of people cursing. I think "fuck" and "hell" and so on are fine words when used sparingly in an appropriate context. It's the way I have raised and even now I have trouble not saying "hell" around kids, which is apparently a problem to some people.

But this lady's crazy over-use of "fucking" and "effin'" make her sound like an idiot. The words lose their power when you just throw them around as a kind of non-descriptive adjective for... everything.

Wow.

Not to mention, some of the stuff she does is just gross.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Not looking at the crazy pagan site.

I've met Sikh fundies. At a friend's wedding, I was fine with the modest dress code and head coverings and sitting on the floor to eat vegetarian food afterward. I was not fine with the large "Free Khalistan!" banner right behind the couple, and was downright distressed by the wall posters glorifying things like the assassination of Indira Ghandi. Several years ago, there were serious fights in the Vancouver area over the issue of using chairs vs. sitting on the floor.

[Avalondaughter]

Does anyone here know any practicing Satanists? I'm not talking about the kids in high school who listened to death metal and wore occult jewelry and black clothes. I'm talking about people who are practicing members of the Church of Satan (the Anton LeVay group) or the First Church of Satan in Salem. Can one be a fundamentalist in this sphere? What rules do you hold yourself to if you believe there are no rules?

The beliefs of these churches are very tied to the philosophines of Ayn Rand, who believed it was "sinful" to help a loved one if it meant risking your own life. (Oddly enough, plenty of right wing Christian fundies like Ayn Rand, which makes me giggle when I think of Satanism and and its ties to Objectivism.) If you're a Satanist, do you ever find yourself in a situation where you might not want to put yourself first? Would it feel wrong to commit an act of pure unselfishness when your own needs are supposed to be supreme at all times, according to Satanic principles? Then again, if you're a Satanist, you shun rules, so maybe it wouldn't feel so wrong to go against one of the Satanic principles.

[Soldier of the One]

Re: fundie Sikhs - yikes, that sounds intense. Especially the politically extreme stuff.

Re: Ayn Rand. Now THERE's a 'secular fundie' I'd love to snark on! :lol:

[2xx1xy1JD]

Article on the Sikh temple violence in Vancouver:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news ... fa0a81e179

And yes, Ayn Rand practically has her own cult. We have some Objectivists on the law school paper who would write the same damn thing every week. I never thought of any Satanic connection - the philosophy is really against all religions, including secular humanism.

[Soldier of the One]

Article on the Sikh temple violence in Vancouver:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news ... fa0a81e179

And yes, Ayn Rand practically has her own cult. We have some Objectivists on the law school paper who would write the same damn thing every week. I never thought of any Satanic connection - the philosophy is really against all religions, including secular humanism.

Thanks for the link!

Oh, Randians are pretty annoying. I wonder if they'd be fully consistent in their worldview if they themselves fall on hard times and need those damn government handouts to keep afloat. I've met a few Randians here and again, *sigh*. As for the Satanist connection... it's probably more coincidental than anything, based on a 'common origin' of a philosophy of extreme human autonomy.

And then to think that Rand was Jewish. Oy vey. Her philosophy is pretty much diametrically opposed to Torah values (define those as you see fit).

[2xx1xy1JD]

I get her extreme distrust of government coercion done in the name of some noble causes, given that she would have seen the Russian Revolution and that the wrote The Fountainhead during WWII. I just think that her views are, well, extreme. She doesn't really differentiate between liberal democracies with social programs, and totalitarian regimes. The philosophy is also really cold and mean-spirited.

[QAF_Rocks]

Does anyone here know any practicing Satanists?

I don't, but if there are any on FJ, they should totally do an "Ask a Satanist" thread!

[JesusFightClub]

I know a couple of practicing Satanists but I do not think they would like it at FJ very much.

[Witsec7]

I get her extreme distrust of government coercion done in the name of some noble causes, given that she would have seen the Russian Revolution and that the wrote The Fountainhead during WWII. I just think that her views are, well, extreme. She doesn't really differentiate between liberal democracies with social programs, and totalitarian regimes. The philosophy is also really cold and mean-spirited.

Her family lost their business to the Bolsheviks, she was vehemently anti communist and anti socialist, and was a friendly witness to HUAC.Like Kerouac she used benzedrine to write. I clap my hands in glee knowing she was dependent on SS in her later years. Her personal life was a hot mess.

[tropaka]

I've always thought of Satanists as Christians who decided to root for the underdog.

Sikh extremism (like all extremism) is nasty....Air India bombing was the largest attack originating in North America before 9/11.

[deelaem]

I've always thought of Satanists as Christians who decided to root for the underdog.

Sikh extremism (like all extremism) is nasty....Air India bombing was the largest attack originating in North America before 9/11.

HA! I love it!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Re: fundie Sikhs - yikes, that sounds intense. Especially the politically extreme stuff.

Re: Ayn Rand. Now THERE's a 'secular fundie' I'd love to snark on! :lol:

Funny you mention her. When I was posting about how political movements often qualify, I was thinking of the our local self-styled Objectivist club... :D

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I've always thought of Satanists as Christians who decided to root for the underdog.

Sikh extremism (like all extremism) is nasty....Air India bombing was the largest attack originating in North America before 9/11.

I was in Narita airport when the "failed" bomb going the other way went off - it too was supposed to be loaded on a plane (Air India to Canada, IIRC) to blow up in midair, but they messed up somehow and it went off in baggage handling, killing three workers and making the entire building shake with a horrible metal stress noise.

We thought it was an earthquake at first, or maybe a plane hitting the building (from the runway) but no, then the closed circuit TV came on. I was waiting on a plane to visit the US, and our plane was delayed for 9 hours, as they had to inspect all the planes.

Hadn't thought about that in years...

Other than that (and far less violent) I remember hearing about some internal Sikh disputes on the news, over whether to use tables(?)...

[artmama]

I don't know about her religion, but there's an anti-adoption fundie at a forum I frequent. She wrote a self published book about how all adoption is evil, said she would immediately disown her kids/cut off all emotional ties with them if she found out that they weren't hers (had gotten switched at birth or something), and believes infants should be killed instead of adopted out if their family can't/won't care for them.

Jessy? I've been friends with her online for about 5 years. I don't agree with her views on adoption, but we have several other views in common.