Can someone tell me what fundy-lite actually is?

[formergothardite]

By the way, I am open to being wrong and have been wrong on here before. When I am wrong will admit it, but you would have to prove that I am wrong in anything I have said about you or your wibbly-wobbly beliefs. I'm actually not trying to convince you to support gay marriage, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is to claim that you don't follow the herd and you make educated decisions all while waffling on an issue as important as equality for your fellow Americans based only on such selfish, emotional reasons. If you want to admit that your feelings towards gay marriage are completely selfish and illogical and that you are willing to think about denying gay marriage based on such reasons, well, then there really won't be anything else to say. When someone is selfish and doesn't care to change then there is no point to even try to debate an issue with them.

[jaynie]

Can't stand to lose a fight can you?

How about being more tolerant of other's opinions? or lack thereof?

Interesting......

Yeah...FG is not losing this fight. You're going around in circles trying to defend a viewpoint that is indefensible. You haven't really managed to come up with a good reason for being torn on this issue*, apart from the fact that you seem resolved not to have a stance on anything.

There are some things it is good to be firm on. It was right for abolitionists to be firmly against slavery. It was right for suffragettes to be firmly in favour of women getting the vote. Waffling on these issues would not make you morally or intellectually superior. Telling someone they were being sexist because they were undecided on whether is was good for women to vote would not be wrong. Telling someone they were being racist because they were undecided on whether black people should use the same water fountains as white people would not be wrong.

*What your church believes and your past experiences of marriage are not good reasons. They don't affect my right to marry as an irreligious heterosexual, so why on earth should they affect a gay man's right to marry his partner?

[maybeizfundie]

Huh. I was thinking my church was fundie-lite but maybe not? It seems like many of the definitions have to do with lifestyle and particular behaviors? Definitely evangelical. Holding to the *theological* fundamentals of Christianity (which is where the term fundamentalist originated, not actually with homeschoolers and skirt-wearers). They are socially conservative--the two issues that would get the most anger here being homosexuality and abortion, though neither issue is approached with a hellfire and brimstone attitude or hatefuless. Church is a huge, huge part of life for most of the congregation, frequent attendance and a lot of social life is ministy or church related. THey are missional and evangelistic.

But, it's an urban congregation, ethnically diverse. Women working is the norm. Women are involved in ministry, even in the pastorate. The majority of the kids are in daycare from infancy on. There are married families, single parents, blended families (divorced/remarried). Stuff like dresses-only, headcoverings, and homeschooling are entirely foreign (which makes me the weirdo, lol). There are some largish families and it is verbalized that children is a blessing, but we have 4 children and most people in the church consider that more than enough--it's OK for me beacause I had 3 boys first and they think we were just trying for 'our girl.' If I have a fifth kid I will officially recieve the "crazy" badge, lol.

[valsa]

How about being more tolerant of other's opinions?

No.

I am tolerant of most people's opinions that are different than mine.

You think burnt orange is an awesome color? I disagree but tolerant your opinion. You think coffee is the nectar of the gods? I disagree but tolerate your opinion. You think an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful spiritbeing knocked up a teenage human girl in order to give birth to himself and then be horribly tortured to let mankind off the hook for a punishment it doled out to us in the first place? I disagree but tolerate your opinion.

However, I am not tolerant of all people's opinions.

You think black people should be kept apart from white people in public spaces? Go to hell. You think women need to cover themselves up in public in order not to tempt men? Fuck you. You think secular gay marriage shouldn't be legal because your religion doesn't like it? Eat shit.

There are some opinions that should not be tolerated.

[yewchapel]

Surrogacy is not allowed my my religion. Adoption is. Plus, until you are married you won't know if you are infertile - would you.

I am far from homophobic.

It makes me wonder - those who are throwing hateful names - if you are really secure in your beliefs or if you too waffle and are afraid to admit it publicly. Afraid of the hive mentality.

The Phelps clan does the same thing. Throws out hateful statements if you don't believe the same way they do.

By the way - a bigot is an intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views.

hmmmmmm......sound familiar anyone? anyone?

Er, even if we're talking about people within your own religion, what about post-menopausal women, or people who have been widowed and know they are infertile?

[Jinger Jar]

Plus, until you are married you won't know if you are infertile - would you.

This is not true.

Women discover they have reproductive abnormalities that lead to infertility before they're married all the time. I, for example, learned while I was still a teenager that the chances of my ever becoming pregnant were almost nonexistent. This was decades before I married.

[dawbs]

This is not true.

Women discover they have reproductive abnormalities that lead to infertility before they're married all the time. I, for example, learned while I was still a teenager that the chances of my ever becoming pregnant were almost nonexistent. This was decades before I married.

THis is one of the stupidest 'medical' opinions I've ever read on the internet.

I had to have 1/2 of each ovary removed.

FUCK YES, I knew I was infertile even though I wasn't having unprotected sex/trying for kids.

[Jiraffe Jirl]

I don't have the option to vote or not vote for gay marriage at this point. So, I do not have a fully developed opinion. If I get the option, then I will look more into what is involved with the wording of the bill in my state and make a fully formed opinion.

Actually, if by "state" you mean one of the United, you express how equal you want gay people to be seen as each time you vote for President. Who was just working on that pesky Defense of Marriage Act today. I'm not really buying that you get to be excused from having a logical opinion because you don't live in NY, or Iowa, or New Hampshire, or Vermont, or Massachusets etc etc.

I'm tired of people using their religion or the way they were raised or what's traditional to them as excuses so that they can hold ignorant views that are hateful of others. I was raised fundie and didn't meet a gay person till I was 15. And while I've doubted religion & God many times, I've never doubted whether Stevie has the same right to marriage and happiness as I do. I've "waffled" on gun control, abortion, plenty of other things. But I don't wake up some days wondering "hm, should we really allow white people to marry black people?" And I look forward to the day where recognize that the question of allowing gay marriage is as stupid as that one.

[GiggleOfGirls]

Well, shit. I don't have a dog in the gay marriage issue either. I'm about as straight as they come and I'm happily married to a straight man and we've happily procreated a few little blessings too. Most of the people in my religion believe that gay people should not get married and I'm certainly not following the herd on this issue - I honestly don't see why my religion should dictate to anyone (especially anyone outside my religion) who they should or should not marry.

I believe that people should be allowed to marry the person (or people) they love. Full stop. Gay people are, by definition, PEOPLE, and they should be allowed to get married to someone they actually love instead of just being allowed to have a sham "straight" marriage to pretend to be socially or religiously acceptable to other people.

As a general rule I don't believe that gay/black analogies are extremely strong because a white gay person isn't always obviously not straight and they can certainly pretend in a potentially hostile situation, whereas people of color can't really pretend to be white, but as far as marriage goes, I think the analogy holds strong. It's usually obvious when there's an interracial marriage and it's very obvious when there's a gay marriage and BOTH types of marriage should be accepted and allowed!

It boggles my mind that we're still needing to have this discussion in 2013. It doesn't hurt anyone when two (or even more than two) consenting adult gay people get married. Even if, IF, it hurt the gay people directly involved, what business is that of mine or anyone else's?

What I really don't understand is why people who usually tout the benefits of marriage - stability, commitment, etc - think that those benefits wouldn't be good (or even okay...) for gay people to have. They're still going to have sex: Newsflash! People have sex! Isn't it better for them to have sex in a committed relationship with benefits like health insurance and stability for their children?

[Mama Mia]

Well, shit. I don't have a dog in the gay marriage issue either. I'm about as straight as they come and I'm happily married to a straight man and we've happily procreated a few little blessings too. Most of the people in my religion believe that gay people should not get married and I'm certainly not following the herd on this issue - I honestly don't see why my religion should dictate to anyone (especially anyone outside my religion) who they should or should not marry.

I believe that people should be allowed to marry the person (or people) they love. Full stop. Gay people are, by definition, PEOPLE, and they should be allowed to get married to someone they actually love instead of just being allowed to have a sham "straight" marriage to pretend to be socially or religiously acceptable to other people.

As a general rule I don't believe that gay/black analogies are extremely strong because a white gay person isn't always obviously not straight and they can certainly pretend in a potentially hostile situation, whereas people of color can't really pretend to be white, but as far as marriage goes, I think the analogy holds strong. It's usually obvious when there's an interracial marriage and it's very obvious when there's a gay marriage and BOTH types of marriage should be accepted and allowed!

It boggles my mind that we're still needing to have this discussion in 2013. It doesn't hurt anyone when two (or even more than two) consenting adult gay people get married. Even if, IF, it hurt the gay people directly involved, what business is that of mine or anyone else's?

What I really don't understand is why people who usually tout the benefits of marriage - stability, commitment, etc - think that those benefits wouldn't be good (or even okay...) for gay people to have. They're still going to have sex: Newsflash! People have sex! Isn't it better for them to have sex in a committed relationship with benefits like health insurance and stability for their children?

I completely, 100% agree that there is absolutely no reason why same sex marriage should not be legal. I have strongly advocated for it, I actively campaigned against Prop 8. I know many married same sex couples.

BUT

I think it is kind of over-the-top for people to act shocked that this is still an issue people haven't come around on yet. There are only what -10 states in the U.S. where it is currently legal. Even in the countries where it is legal it has been for only a decade or so. In England they are now voting on it. It is all very, very, very recent that it has been legal anywhere, and in the vast majority of the world it is illegal. And it is only in this most recent election that a presidential candidate came out in favor of it, in 2008, only 4 years ago, Obama was still saying he was opposed.

Acting like same sex marriage is universally accepted and only the most backwards people could possibly still have reservations / be undecided does not match with actual history.

[samurai_sarah]

I completely, 100% agree that there is absolutely no reason why same sex marriage should not be legal. I have strongly advocated for it, I actively campaigned against Prop 8. I know many married same sex couples.

BUT

I think it is kind of over-the-top for people to act shocked that this is still an issue people haven't come around on yet. There are only what -10 states in the U.S. where it is currently legal. Even in the countries where it is legal it has been for only a decade or so. In England they are now voting on it. It is all very, very, very recent that it has been legal anywhere, and in the vast majority of the world it is illegal. And it is only in this most recent election that a presidential candidate came out in favor of it, in 2008, only 4 years ago, Obama was still saying he was opposed.

Acting like same sex marriage is universally accepted and only the most backwards people could possibly still have reservations / be undecided does not match with actual history.

England isn't currently voting on it, the House of Commons has decided in favour of gay marriage. It's more or less a done deal.

[yewchapel]

The House of Lords has yet to vote on it, iirc.

[1004srs]

I think it is a shame for someone who says they waffle on certain hot topics (instead of having a firm opinion ON EVERYTHING) is shamed. Yes, this is shaming rather than a discussion of the fact that waffle on this issue. I am torn between church beliefs, my personal beliefs, my friends opinions, and my upbringing. I guess if that is wrong, then so be it.

What a sad state Free Jinger has come to - especially since only the opinion of the Free Jinger herd is allowed to be spoken.

Why again would fundies come here?

To be told their beliefs are wrong and criticized and cursed at? I guess next, someone will contact me at home or contact my employer to tell me how wrong I am because I won't be forced into an opinion - and pretend they are being helpful.

[formergothardite]

I'm sure you feel the exact same way about racists too. We really shouldn't shame them if they are torn against their personal beliefs, religious beliefs upbringing and the idea that people should not be denied equality based on the color of their skin. Oh yes, we should never tell racists their beliefs are wrong and we should totally tolerate racism.

If you want to deny equality to a group because of your religion and icky feelings towards marriage, at least don't claim you make educated decisions.

[meda]

I think it is a shame for someone who says they waffle on certain hot topics (instead of having a firm opinion ON EVERYTHING) is shamed. Yes, this is shaming rather than a discussion of the fact that waffle on this issue. I am torn between church beliefs, my personal beliefs, my friends opinions, and my upbringing. I guess if that is wrong, then so be it.

What a sad state Free Jinger has come to - especially since only the opinion of the Free Jinger herd is allowed to be spoken.

Why again would fundies come here?

To be told their beliefs are wrong and criticized and cursed at? I guess next, someone will contact me at home or contact my employer to tell me how wrong I am because I won't be forced into an opinion - and pretend they are being helpful.

This makes no sense. How can an moderately intelligent adult with basic reading comprehension be incapable of forming an opinion on a social issue? Why should someone expect hugs and ass pats for fuzzy, lazy thinking? It is at least intellectually honest to say "look, I belong to a particular religious sect that believes gay marriage is immoral. I believe that the views of my sect should be applied to all people, and will vote and act in accordance with those beliefs"

I have far more respect for that sort of intellectual honesty than I do for the " oh, I'm not sure, golly....I'm a moderate and like to look at all sides....I'm more tolerant and well educated than you so you should be nice to me and respect my biases.....OMG, you guys are so mean!!!!!" Articulate a reason for your particular bias, that's not really asking for much.

[Maggie Mae]

I think it is a shame for someone who says they waffle on certain hot topics (instead of having a firm opinion ON EVERYTHING) is shamed. Yes, this is shaming rather than a discussion of the fact that waffle on this issue. I am torn between church beliefs, my personal beliefs, my friends opinions, and my upbringing. I guess if that is wrong, then so be it.

What a sad state Free Jinger has come to - especially since only the opinion of the Free Jinger herd is allowed to be spoken.

Why again would fundies come here?

To be told their beliefs are wrong and criticized and cursed at? I guess next, someone will contact me at home or contact my employer to tell me how wrong I am because I won't be forced into an opinion - and pretend they are being helpful.

No, any opinion is "allowed" to be "spoken." Your post was not deleted or edited. The ability to say what you want is not infringed here. We are also free to respond to your comments and ask for clarification.

I don't understand why anyone who lives in the US can say that they are against marriage. First amendment prevents congress from creating a State religion. Atheists get married, it's not a religious event. When/if I get married, I will not be employing a priest, rabbi, or minister. My SO's dad married someone in his living room, in his bathrobe. Tell me how two people (neither of whom is you) getting married affects you and your marriage?

Not wanting to form an opinion is stupid. How do you go through life, never discussing hot topic issues? What do you discuss with friends? And why would you join a forum that discusses hot topics if you don't want to form opinions and talk about them?

I'm sorry, I just really don't understand people who don't have opinions. And say things like "I don't know/care about politics or economics" a sentence after declaring that they are educated.

[nokidsmom]

I honestly don't understand how someone can "waffle" on issues such as whether or not they support gay marriage, or think whether or not people of all races are equal or similar issues.

Either you are for equal marriage opportunity or not. Either you believe in race equality or not. Whether the reasons be it your religion, your upbringing, your personal feelings, or whatever, I just don't understand how you cannot form an opinion one way or another on something like this, even if you don't want to openly state it.

[valsa]

Why again would fundies come here?

Why again would I want fundies to come here?

[Trynn]

When I was growing up, my dad told me that he was for gay marriage. He said that even if we didn't agree with it, our religion shouldn't dictate the way everyone else should live, and church and state should be separated.

So, even when I was younger, and scared of gay people (I grew up what most would consider fundy lite, and by younger I mean like, younger than 14) I still believed that gay people should marry and be treated as equals.

(I would like to note that I am no longer afraid of gays/lesbians, for the record, and consider that particular fear a childhood fear based off of ignorance.)

[GiggleOfGirls]

Mrs S2004 - If it makes me "over the top" to not understand why or how people can justify denying other people basic human rights nowadays with all the information that people have access to, then I'll gladly take that title 8-) I'm well aware that people DO deny other people basic human rights (only nine states, plus DC, in America have legal same-sex marriage as of January 2013), but that doesn't mean that I should think it's a normal, logical, or a-okay thing for them to do and, in fact, I don't. It does happen to boggle my mind that this seems to be such a difficult concept for so many people to grasp, and maybe that's my problem, but at least I own it :D

I honestly don't understand how someone can "waffle" on issues such as whether or not they support gay marriage, or think whether or not people of all races are equal or similar issues.

Either you are for equal marriage opportunity or not. Either you believe in race equality or not. Whether the reasons be it your religion, your upbringing, your personal feelings, or whatever, I just don't understand how you cannot form an opinion one way or another on something like this, even if you don't want to openly state it.

Exactly. It comes across as disingenuous, at best.

[valsa]

I think it is kind of over-the-top for people to act shocked that this is still an issue people haven't come around on yet. There are only what -10 states in the U.S. where it is currently legal. Even in the countries where it is legal it has been for only a decade or so. In England they are now voting on it. It is all very, very, very recent that it has been legal anywhere, and in the vast majority of the world it is illegal. And it is only in this most recent election that a presidential candidate came out in favor of it, in 2008, only 4 years ago, Obama was still saying he was opposed.

Acting like same sex marriage is universally accepted and only the most backwards people could possibly still have reservations / be undecided does not match with actual history.

Here's some more history you might be interested in-

In 1976, Nebraska became the first state to abolish an exemption in their rape laws that said husbands couldn't rape their wives. And as late as 1993, North Carolina's penal code stated that a person could not be convicted of rape "if the victim is the person's legal spouse at the time of the commission of the alleged rape."

Also, it took until 2000 for Alabama to overturn an (unenforceble) part of their state constitution that said "The legislature shall never pass any law to authorise or legalise any marriage between any white person and a Negro or descendant of a Negro".

Laws are often socially backwards and out of date. Using the fact that only 9 states have legalized gay marriage to support your view means nothing.

[Minerva]

Since when can gay people not procreate? Does someone need a biology lesson?

[Minerva]

I'd just like to add, now that I've got sleep, that "oh look who's being intolerant" diversion is fucking stupid. I read it for the first time during my one and only visit to a white supermacist forum and was incensed. As if supporting racial tolerance and being intolerant of racism were somehow antithetical just because you can use the word "tolerant" twice while saying it.

Let me explain something to you. The word "tolerance", when referring to the stereotypically liberal value, doesn't mean tolerance of anything at all. It specifically refers to not discriminating against people for things they cannot control, or for choices they make or opinions they hold that don't hurt others. Tolerance, by this definition, cannot include tolerating racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc., because if you're tolerant of those things, you are being intolerant by that definition. And this makes perfect sense because sometimes the same word can have more than one definition! Kind of like how if Rick Santorum sprained his ankle and I helped him walk to his car, I'd be supporting him whilst not supporting him.