Tedious, Complicated, and Particular: Erika Shupe, Part 8

[apandaaries]

5 hours ago, usedbicycle said:

I have the same feelings about Bob. He witnessed his wife being pushed to physical extremes with back-to-back pregnancies, go through depression, and live a drastically scheduled life just to keep her head above water. He had to deal with huge financial pressure, even if it wasn't his idea to go quiverfull.

I would imagine that the sacrifices they made as a couple isn't something he necessarily wants for his daughters. Oh, I'm sure he still sees them married to a godly man and raising children and attending church, but maybe with a degree and career to bring in some income if needed.

Was there any particularly depressed period mentioned by Erika? I agree that Bob seems "Christian," but looking at his FB, it seems more of the patriotic, masculine, 'Murican Christianity (with guns!).  AFAIK, he seems happy with a fundiesque or fundie-lite situation, and from (what I can recall of) her modesty posts, he's not bothered by women in pants.  [ETA: Erika's suggestions about persuading the spouse veered far onto the passive-aggressive tactics scals.] To me, it seems like he is okay with a fundie-lite existence, but would also be okay as a doomsday prepper or in some other extreme.  He works hard, but he also has some difficult-to-account for views. 
Also, if I had 12 dependents, I would be just fine with any of the dependents looking for outside work to help support the home.  But maybe that's just me.

7 hours ago, princessmahina said:

Yeah, it was a lot of coercion, and almost a "do what you want" kind of attitude, but more Godly and submissive than that. I think Bob likes the idea of the fundie lifestyle, but is a little more realistic. If need be, Erika may have been able to get a job teaching or tutoring to bring in extra money and Bob could have stayed home with the littles. I know they're pretty fervently against that kind of thing, but dire situations sometimes call for dire measures.

He may also be thinking even further into the future. A lot of fundie men seem to go for dangerous/hazardous occupations like tree trimming or construction. If the husband dies, it seems like the wife is typically SOL. A degree is no guarantee of anything, of course, but it might make it easier to get a job if Karen has a cosmetology license that she keeps up to date and if Melanie is able to freelance here and there.

Do you recall the mentions of the peanut butter times?  Erika had a post on gratitude where she discussed how the family was going through a very tough financial patch (Bob's unemployment) and everyone was eating peanut butter nearly nonstop.  One of the (terribly ungrateful) daughters had the temerity to complain about the peanut butter, so she had to write a letter about what she was grateful for, and how wonderful her parents were to provide everything.  

It's hard to imagine Bob's position on all of this. He's clearly gone with and supported quite a bit, but if I had 12 dependents to support on my own, and only prayers for help....I'd be one terrified and overwhelmed mama.  If I had an educated woman at home who could work but didn't want to/thought it Biblically inappropriate, I'd have issues.  We all noticed the odd Father's Day gifts last year (did she post any this year?), including notes thanking him for staying around.  It seems there is some tension in the Shuke-stead.  I'd be more than a bit frustrated if Erika were my spouse, for many reasons, including the disinclination to work outside the home. 

ETA: I do think that the latest pictures seem happier, and a more relaxed set of rules seems to fix everyone better.  There's plenty to critique and ponder (see above) but it's far more awesome if the family is happier overall.  These changes seem to have had very positive yields, so I do not want to detract from that -- even though the rest of the post is about other minutiae of great spectulative material for me.  

[princessmahina]

I know they've gone through tough times, and even though they ate a lot of peanut butter, they still had the money to put gas in the gas tank, pay their bills (as far as we know, since there are no posts about getting delayed payments or whatever- and you know she'd have some kind of organizational strategy for that), and even buy the peanut butter. I think things would have to get really desperate before they'd send Erika to work- it would have to get to the point where they couldn't pay for even peanut butter, the church couldn't/wouldn't help them, and family support was-- for whatever reason-- unavailable. 

The point is more that she has the option, not that she will. Most fundie women don't even have the option to get a job making anything above minimum wage.

[apandaaries]

1 hour ago, princessmahina said:

The point is more that she has the option, not that she will. Most fundie women don't even have the option to get a job making anything above minimum wage.

There is that, though most states I know of require ongoing coursework/professional development to stay current with licensing/credentials.  Teaching and cosmetology definitely require that (though of course there are probably many exceptions for those rules, which vary by state).  Brushing up on credentials is certainly better than starting from nothing, as many fundie family members find themselves. Honestly though, I can't really give fundies the benefit of researching and considering secular restrictions on licensing requirements.  It is good to think (imagine?) that they are vaguely planning ahead. I'm quite curious about what's been going on behind the scenes.  It'd be great if Erika decided to pen another post about changing with the times, rather than reposting another years-old blog entry.

[VanillaBean]

I'm thinking Karen bought pants for herself and for Melanie out of her earnings. What can her mother really say to that? I'm in the camp that Erica is loosening up a bit in order to keep the girls home. I really hope Karen waits for Melanie to turn 18 and they both bolt. 

[mango_fandango]

Someone has asked about Karen and Melanie wearing jeans on the album labelled "Extended Family Fun!" Erin's hasn't replied yet. Wonder if she will...

[lauraloralara]

6 hours ago, VanillaBean said:

I'm thinking Karen bought pants for herself and for Melanie out of her earnings. What can her mother really say to that? I'm in the camp that Erica is loosening up a bit in order to keep the girls home. I really hope Karen waits for Melanie to turn 18 and they both bolt. 

Ha! I would love this. It would make sense with Erika's recent links to other blogs that she's posted on FB about not getting everything right all the time and your children making bad decisions and all that. (That could also be about 3000 other things going on at their home, or just something Erika found interesting and inspiring.)

[Eternalbluepearl]

I think the father's day card where one of the Shupe kids thanked Bob for staying was for 2 reasons.

1: Fundie kids are forever having to come up with things they are grateful for, just look at the Maxwell's annual Thanksgiving blog post. This Shupe kid was probably running out of ideas for being thankful. 

2: Fundies are constantly making the world seem full of divorce and broken families. If you hear all the time that your non-fundie peers have parents who aren't together or come from homes where there isn't love, it seems logical to thank your dad for never leaving. Because thankfulness. It's really more of that Christians are better than others crap. When in reality, I think I read somewhere that Christians have a high divorce rate just like everyone else. I can't cite a source though. 

[elliha]

My guess is that after her last miscarriage and then the girls growing and her either hitting or approaching menopause things have been hard. Erika's whole image is as a mother of tons of children close in age and she has now realized that is not her thing anymore. Even if she has not yet hit menopause officially she has definitely hit a much less fertile spot. 

I also have a strong suspicion that Bob has said something on the older girls behalf, he seems happier himself since the changes and so do the girls. I have always had a sense that Bob is close to at least Karen but perhaps both the older girls. I also think that while he allows Erika to do things much the way she likes I think he has put his foot down about some things like too much control of the older kids, perhaps doing more active things and letting them move on and grow up. 

I remember the blog post about cutting Bob's parents out of their life. It strongly sounded like this was all Erika or at least 95% Erika who wanted this. I am also thinking that perhaps Bob has said to himself that he allowed this but he is not going to allow Karen et al to do the same to them...

 

[Koala]

I agree.  I have always been really suspicious about how things went down with Bob's family.  Erika's explanation was just a little *too* self serving if you ask me.  

I also noticed that she mentioned them yesterday on Facebook:

Quote

We have struggled with Bob's dad and family as well (not this family, this is my side). It's so hard.

 

[princessmahina]

9 hours ago, amandaaries said:

There is that, though most states I know of require ongoing coursework/professional development to stay current with licensing/credentials.  Teaching and cosmetology definitely require that (though of course there are probably many exceptions for those rules, which vary by state).  Brushing up on credentials is certainly better than starting from nothing, as many fundie family members find themselves. Honestly though, I can't really give fundies the benefit of researching and considering secular restrictions on licensing requirements.  It is good to think (imagine?) that they are vaguely planning ahead. I'm quite curious about what's been going on behind the scenes.  It'd be great if Erika decided to pen another post about changing with the times, rather than reposting another years-old blog entry.

I'm willing to give some of them the benefit of the doubt. Last I checked Erika maintained a Linked In page. They both grew up fairly secular, so I can see them keeping up with things like that. Also, Bob may be more realistic than Erika. He may have wanted her to try for a job (and she probably could have hired herself out for tutoring a few times a week. Just having the degree probably would have gotten her a few clients) and she refused. It's in Karen and Melanie's best interests to have some sort of certification and keep it relevant. After all, he knows first hand what it's like to not be able to provide for his family and the struggle and worry that comes with unemployment. 

[Hisey]

Erika cares a lot about what people think. She has a lot of relatively-normal family in the area. If Karen graduates and does nothing but care for the littles, Erika will get criticized. She hates being criticized!

Plus, I don't think she wants a grumpy, unhappy, bored Karen around the house for the indefinite future. 

So Karen has to go to college of some sort. However, I think Erika and Bob have been saving for a new house for a long time. She is clearly unhappy with that house. So they can't take thousands of dollars to pay for a cosmetology course without seriously delaying their plans.

And what she does with Karen sets a pattern, at least for the girls. If Erika pays for Karen's cosmetology course, she'll have to pony up for the younger girls' schooling too. So requiring the kids to pay for their own education makes sense.

So Karen HAD to get a job because she HAS to go to college, or else Erika will look like a bad mom.

[usedbicycle]

14 hours ago, amandaaries said:

Was there any particularly depressed period mentioned by Erika?

From her most recent post on Scheduling and Routines, this was around the time Karen and Melanie where little:

 "Not only did the children not have my heart, but my poor husband had a wife who did not smile very much, who was not enjoying life, who only saw the difficulties, and struggled greatly with depression."

It seems like she always had trouble enjoying her kids, even when she only had a couple. Not everyone is cut out to be a large family mom, it's just sad that she felt obligated by a made-up doctrine to have so many when she clearly can't cope.

"I would end up brushing the children aside out of frustration most of the day while trying to accomplish my goals "

4 hours ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

2: Fundies are constantly making the world seem full of divorce and broken families. If you hear all the time that your non-fundie peers have parents who aren't together or come from homes where there isn't love, it seems logical to thank your dad for never leaving. Because thankfulness. It's really more of that Christians are better than others crap. 

This! Reminds me of the fundies who thank their moms for not aborting them or wear those "I survived Roe vs Wade" shirts. They must think the rest of the world is out having tons of abortions and divorcing just for fun, which makes their parents seem like true saints.

[December]

17 minutes ago, usedbicycle said:

Reminds me of the fundies who thank their moms for not aborting them or wear those "I survived Roe vs Wade" shirts. They must think the rest of the world is out having tons of abortions and divorcing just for fun, which makes their parents seem like true saints.

Okay, the first time I saw pictures of people wearing those "I Survived Roe v. Wade" shirts, I didn't realize what they were for. All I could think of was that they were for people who were born after a botched attempt at abortion. I felt very stupid when I finally realized what they were actually about. 

I always find the fundie need to portray the rest of the world as teeming with abortions, divorce, promiscuity, drugs, etc. as a strong indicator that they're not so secure in their own beliefs. People shouldn't need to trash others in order to make themselves look better -- it's a red flag they're trying to cover something they know isn't good! 

[imokit]

59 minutes ago, December said:

Okay, the first time I saw pictures of people wearing those "I Survived Roe v. Wade" shirts, I didn't realize what they were for. All I could think of was that they were for people who were born after a botched attempt at abortion. I felt very stupid when I finally realized what they were actually about. 

I always find the fundie need to portray the rest of the world as teeming with abortions, divorce, promiscuity, drugs, etc. as a strong indicator that they're not so secure in their own beliefs. People shouldn't need to trash others in order to make themselves look better -- it's a red flag they're trying to cover something they know isn't good! 

Did you see their minds explode a few years ago when the director of planned parenthood got pregnant and had twins?

Its a rather sad state of affairs where they can't envision people with good access to abortion, who believe its acceptable and that women have a right to access it, choosing to have children.

Still that broo ha ha was 

[16strong]

I'm hopping on the speculation bus with no evidence whatsoever, but might it be possible that Erika has recently seen a real doctor and been prescribed antidepressants and/or seen a counselor? Or maybe someone from the church has offered Erika and Bob free marriage counseling. We know that the pastor's wife has expressed concern for the Shupe's home life in the past. Maybe she hooked them up with resources and Bob encouraged her to get some help. I don't know. It just seems like in the past Erika couldn't survive without every last inch of her home life being rigidly controlled, and now she is letting her kids walk on beach forts (they could fall) and play on jungle gym type contraptions at the playground. She's also letting them have more outdoors time. In the pictures and videos, she seems to really be enjoying the activities with the kids that she wouldn't have before. I really get the feeling that this change goes way beyond not wanting to look bad. She's posted so many things lately that could net her A LOT of criticism, and yet... she seems relaxed and happy. Could be my imagination, though. I really want the best for these kids (and any kids, really).

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

1 hour ago, December said:

Okay, the first time I saw pictures of people wearing those "I Survived Roe v. Wade" shirts, I didn't realize what they were for. All I could think of was that they were for people who were born after a botched attempt at abortion. I felt very stupid when I finally realized what they were actually about.

No.  It's the wearer of the shirt that should feel stupid.  
You had it right.  "I Survived Roe v. Wade" implies that your mother tried to abort you and failed.
Now, I know fundies see it otherwise, but I really think and hope that most rational thinking people (whether pro-life or pro-choice) see it as the ridiculous slogan that it is. 

[19 cats and counting]

I wonder if Erika changing has something to do with Karen being almost 18 and threatening to run for the hills and expose her.

[wikinggirl]

Poor Lacey and Lilly. Why can't they be treated like individuals? 

[December]

4 minutes ago, wikinggirl said:

Poor Lacey and Lilly. Why can't they be treated like individuals? 

 I get dressing twins in matching outfits, but it'd be nice to have different colors for each or something to distinguish. 

That said maybe it was just an easy way to save money-- do a photo shoot together. 

[wikinggirl]

2 hours ago, December said:

 I get dressing twins in matching outfits, but it'd be nice to have different colors for each or something to distinguish. 

That said maybe it was just an easy way to save money-- do a photo shoot together. 

I still think they should have a photo each on the wall. I get it, they're twins, but they are always grouped together, always wearing the same clothes. It's never Lacey or Lilly it's always Lacey and Lilly. 

[princessmahina]

Erika's written before how she doesn't think it's necessary to make a difference between the twins and teach them that they're two different people and all that. Which makes sense, really, because they're female and females aren't their own people- they're just empty vessels waiting to be filled with Godly sperm to create arrows for their headship. 

[mallallory]

Shouldn't that boy at the end of the top row of pictures be third? 

[defraudingjezebel]

I've been thinking... Maybe it's Erika's parents who have encouraged her to ease up a bit. They're pretty much beyond criticism in Erika's eyes, and Karen's closeness to her grandparents has been mentioned numerous times on the blog and facebook. I wouldn't be surprised if Kaaren (Erika's mom) had a heart-to-heart with her about Karen during Erika's little retreat weekend. We know Erika was reading that book about dealing with teenagers. I wouldn't be shocked if her mother offered some sage advice. I think Erika would be more receptive to her parents' input than anyone else's.... even Bob's. 

[princessmahina]

1 hour ago, defraudingjezebel said:

I've been thinking... Maybe it's Erika's parents who have encouraged her to ease up a bit. They're pretty much beyond criticism in Erika's eyes, and Karen's closeness to her grandparents has been mentioned numerous times on the blog and facebook. I wouldn't be surprised if Kaaren (Erika's mom) had a heart-to-heart with her about Karen during Erika's little retreat weekend. We know Erika was reading that book about dealing with teenagers. I wouldn't be shocked if her mother offered some sage advice. I think Erika would be more receptive to her parents' input than anyone else's.... even Bob's. 

This is an interesting thought. Erika's parents didn't go fundie until later in Erika's life and it looks as though it didn't really "take" with them. They look like they've stayed conservative Christian. I could totally see her having a serious talk with Erika about the way she's treating Karen and Melanie.

[Jellybean]

 

9 hours ago, 16strong said:

I'm hopping on the speculation bus with no evidence whatsoever, but might it be possible that Erika has recently seen a real doctor and been prescribed antidepressants and/or seen a counselor? Or maybe someone from the church has offered Erika and Bob free marriage counseling. We know that the pastor's wife has expressed concern for the Shupe's home life in the past. Maybe she hooked them up with resources and Bob encouraged her to get some help. I don't know. It just seems like in the past Erika couldn't survive without every last inch of her home life being rigidly controlled, and now she is letting her kids walk on beach forts (they could fall) and play on jungle gym type contraptions at the playground. She's also letting them have more outdoors time. In the pictures and videos, she seems to really be enjoying the activities with the kids that she wouldn't have before. I really get the feeling that this change goes way beyond not wanting to look bad. She's posted so many things lately that could net her A LOT of criticism, and yet... she seems relaxed and happy. Could be my imagination, though. I really want the best for these kids (and any kids, really).

So fascinated by all these changes in Shupeland - I'd love to know their reasons. This theory by @16strong makes a lot of sense to me, and I definitely agree that they all seem happier.

Prior to this recent change, I don't think I'd ever seen a genuine smile from Bob. I particularly like the pictures of him playing Lego with one of the kids, though almost all the recent pictures show a more relaxed Bob than we're used to seeing. 

I would imagine that it's easy to get caught up in the logistics of having a very large homeschooled family in a small house and on a single income, just lurching from one thing to the next, trying to keep one's head above water. Quite a few of the families we discuss here seem to struggle to keep the basics under control and don't ever get to know their children as individuals, or enjoy the experience of being a parent to each of them as they grow. The childhood years just fly by so it's important for the parents to be present and mindful rather than trying to spread themselves impossibly thinly in order to stay 'on message.'

"Make not a bond of love; rather let it be a moving sea between the shores of your souls."          Khalil Gibran