Mrs. Pat Robertson must feel thrilled/Alzheimer's (MERGED)

[gustava]

I"m going to be the asshat here, but why should only 'young spouse' people have that freedom?

I think Pat Robertson is a tool of all tools. He probably has 'craftsman' on his head if he shaved it. And I thinkhe handled this as tactlessly as possible.

But. That being said...I think 'divorce' isn't the best choice. But I don't think treating it as if the marriage is unbreakable is the right choice either

If my grandfather had decided that, after 8 years in separate nursing homes, being married to a vegetable, he wanted to 'date', I would have supported that. It wouldn't have meant he didn't love my grandmother. It would have meant he was a human being who craved companionship and had to recognize that being married to a vegetable isn't really companionship.

(my family was appalled by my opinion and, since Grandma has passed and Grandpa doesnt' seem inclined to date, it's moot. But I still stand by it.

One reason Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, first woman on the US Supreme Court, left the bench was because her husband had Alzheimer's. Afer he was moved to a care facility, he became enamored with another patient, female. Sandra Day supported her beloved husband in his Alzheimer's induced attachment to this other woman. She didn't divorce him.

I think dawbs and I agree on notions of human kindness.

[liltwinstar]

Oh, I know there are really hard cases where one spouse gets, say, a traumatic brain injury and as a consequence becomes very violent or something like that. Then of course, you have to do the right thing to protect yourself and any children. And basically, I don't think there are any easy answers when it comes to catastrophic illness - I saw what it did to one family and it was gut-wrenching to watch.

I guess my problem with Robertson's comment is that dementia/Alzheimer's is an age-related illness, and the person who gets the illness needs the care and companionship of people they recognize and love. Further, Robertson said specifically that men can divorce their Alzheimer's-afflicted wives. Not sure what his reasoning is; I guess because a "man has needs" or some such.

I know my Grandma won't get more than 5 feet away from my Grandfather, and she worries if he goes to get a glass of water or something. It would be cruel of him to toss her aside, just as I would think it was cruel to divorce a spouse with cancer or diabetes or whatever. And, after knowing that she coddled him for 50+ years by caring for his home, raising his children, getting up at 5am to pack his lunches and so on, I think it's fair that my Grandfather do a little care-taking of his own :)

If Grandma was violent or dangerous (she's not) maybe other steps would need to be taken to protect my Grandfather, but that shouldn't be a justification to toss aside a spouse who is no longer physically/mentally perfect.

[gustava]

Speaking in the abstract, perhaps there are distinctions to be made based on age and length of marriage at least for those of us not bound by covenant marriages.

If I had the privilege of being married for many years, I would hope that I would do what my husband needed, while acknowledging that I have a live. (I have no idea what that means in reality.)

However, if I were young and had been married only a few years, I might well leave the marriage, though I would hope it wouldn't be easy for me to do so. Suppose I'm 30, with a small child, and husband suffers serious brain injury and will have mood swings, be angry, not be able to work.... I don't think that I can blame that woman for building a new life for herself and her children.

But Sandra Day... a class act.

[Stickers]

I also don't think there's anything wrong with a person dating when their spouse is still alive but in no state be part of a relationship and will never be again. I think the thing here is Pat Robertson does think there's something wrong with that, it's sinning because it's cheating. Divorce is the lesser of the two evils to him.

[Austin]

I certainly don't agree with Pat Robertson, but I have great compassion for both those with Alzheimers and their ca retakers. Alzheimers is not only a disease of the very old, but can strike as early as the 40's or 50's (which is not that old!). Those with Alzheimers and other forms of severe dementia often disappear and are no longer present on this earth. They often don't know the spouse they loved for decades, or their children, or anybody that should be familiar.

I'm not down with kicking people to the curb, believe me, and I consider myself married for life, but I do not condemn people who do all they can do and then try to salvage some semblance of a life for themselves. I read a book by Barry Petersen where he tells the story of his beloved wife who was stricken with Alzheimers in her 50's, IIRC. It really helped me crystallize my views on this subject. The book is Jan's Story: Love Lost to the Long Goodbye of Alzheimer's .

[PennySycamore]

liltwinstar, your story about your grandparents brought tears to my eyes.

gustava, Justice O'Connor's support of her husband's feelings toward this other patient is one of the most touching things I've ever heard. She and the children were just glad to see that he was happy.

[demgirl]

Justice O'Connor and I parted ways on most issues -- she was far too conservative for me and far too obsessed with limiting the scope of certain issues that were sure to recur in different forms for years (although I did appreciate her move toward the middle when the rest of the court swung hardline conservative) - but she's old-school classy, and you have to respect that.

One of my profs told the best stories about the court and the justices in the 1990s, when he was arguing in front of the court much more often and had all the inside scoop. Justice O'Connor apparently ran an exercise/aerobics class in the mornings at the courthouse and all of the females working there were strongly encouraged to attend. For some reason that always cracked me up -- the vision of an elderly woman strong arming or chiding young, healthy just-graduated young women into aerobacizing with her.

[Kitty]

Given his general irrationality, perhaps he's in the beginning stages of dementia himself.

If he has dementia he's doing a damn good job of keeping himself together, especially given his REALLY LONG history of saying stupid shit like this.

I think he's just a complete schmuck.

[JesusFightClub]

liltwinstar, your story about your grandparents brought tears to my eyes.

gustava, Justice O'Connor's support of her husband's feelings toward this other patient is one of the most touching things I've ever heard. She and the children were just glad to see that he was happy.

I don't know too much about your Supreme Court but ITA on both of these. What a strong person Justice O'Connor must be to do that. Her kids, too.

[gustava]

One blogger I read wondered if Robertson was linking the notion of leaving an Alzheimer's spouse to Paul's "tis better to marry than to burn." think the theory behind this is that it's better to fulfill one's sexual passion than not to do so. And it seems to fit in with what someone above said about being better to divorce than to be unfaithful.

Either way, it's crap.

[Hane]

I could see if a person of either gender had a young spouse who became a vegetable or had devastating demetia. What good does it do to remain married to someone who does not know you and cannot even be safely cared for in your home? I would not say that you are a bad person for cutting your losses in that case.

There's a similar situation with a couple (early 40s, a teenaged daughter) at my church. The husband has an inoperable brain tumor. When I first met him, he was a charming, cheerful, talkative guy--the result of brain damage. I learned that he'd been just about the opposite before his illness. His cognition and health rapidly went downhill, and his wife had to place him in a nursing home, after struggling mightily to care for him at home.

I learned from her that their marriage hadn't been exactly happy before his illness.

They are still married, but she is now in a relationship with someone else. I struggle with my feelings about it. I want her to be happy--she deserves happiness--but am ill at ease to see her dating while her husband is alive, despite his deep dementia.

[Bozoette]

From yesterday's Borowitz Report:

In Rare Public Statement, God Tells Pat Robertson to Shut the Fuck Up

‘Enough Already With That Moron,’ Says Almighty

NEW YORK (The Borowitz Report) – Rev. Pat Robertson’s controversial remarks in which he advised that it was acceptable to divorce a spouse with Alzheimer’s drew a harsh rebuke from God Almighty, who held a press conference today to tell him to “shut the fuck up.â€

The bearded King of the Universe, dressed in His trademark flowing white robe and carrying a lightning bolt, spoke to reporters at New York’s Hyatt Grand Central for forty-five minutes in a press conference specifically called to denounce the televangelist.

“I’ve held my tongue while he’s jabbered on and on about me punishing this group and that group with floods and earthquakes and such, but this was the last straw,†He said. “Enough already with that moron.â€

In addition to debunking Rev. Robertson’s Alzheimer’s statement, the Almighty categorically denied using natural disasters in the past to punish gays, Haitians, and other targets of Rev. Robertson’s scorn.

“Oh, please,†He said. “That’s just weather.â€

On another topic, God attempted to put distance between Himself and the presidential candidacy of Gov. Rick Perry of Texas: “Rick Perry is qualified to be President in the same way that Olive Garden is qualified to be Italy.â€

[mythoughtis]

I think that if you really believe in death do you part, then you don't get divorced because a spouse has dementia. But, I have also known loving spouses who get divorced, but stay together, because they will both be bankrupt by huge medical bills if they stay married.

In this case, the person wanted Pat's opinion on a relationship while his spouse was still alive.... and Pat threw the baby out with the bathwater and mentioned divorce instead.

I think spouses of people with dementia..... whose dementia has progressed to the point that they have caregiver/patient relationship, where the patient does not recognize the caregiver as the spouse.... should go ahead and date if they want to. They won't be hurting the patient(spouse) at that point, and the marriage is 'dead.. so to speak'.... as long as they are still committed to spending time with the ill spouse and seeing to their needs.

.

If they need to divorce, but stay around, for financial reasons, I'm ok with that too.

But I don't think a person whose committed to the spouse in health should just divorce and totally walk away from the spouse because they are ill... which is what Pat recommended. Would you marry someone who had done that to his prior spouse?

[oscar]

I think that if you really believe in death do you part, then you don't get divorced because a spouse has dementia. But, I have also known loving spouses who get divorced, but stay together, because they will both be bankrupt by huge medical bills if they stay married.

My husband and I keep our finances completely separate, so if my health deteriorates at a point when I am uninsured or underinsured, we can divorce, and I will burn through my resources until I qualify for services while he continues to care for me. This is a worst-case scenario, but one for which we have prepared.

Somehow I do not think that this is the scenario Robertson had in mind. What a horrid man.

[Bella99]

My husband's mother (who I never had the privilege of meeting) died of early onset Alzheimer's. My FIL struggled to care for her at home until it was obvious that it was unsafe to do so then placed her in a nursing facility where she died quite young. Fortunately, their sons were grown and they had the financial resources for this. There is no one size fits all in these types of situations. We have an 8 yo daughter whose needs should take priority over either of ours.

[mythoughtis]

I think that putting someone with Altzhiemers in a nursing home is probably the safest and best care possible once they reach the point where you can't feel comfortable taking care of them at home. I certainly do NOT think that doing that is in any way abandoning them. I don't think anyone here thinks differently than that.

But, what Pat Robertson said was that you should feel free to divorce and abandon your spouse if they have altzeimers. would you feel that you would need to do that to your spouse in order to take care of your 8 year old?

[gustava]

I think that putting someone with Altzhiemers in a nursing home is probably the safest and best care possible once they reach the point where you can't feel comfortable taking care of them at home. I certainly do NOT think that doing that is in any way abandoning them. I don't think anyone here thinks differently than that.

But, what Pat Robertson said was that you should feel free to divorce and abandon your spouse if they have altzeimers. would you feel that you would need to do that to your spouse in order to take care of your 8 year old?

I can see that someone might be in that ghastly position, though probably not with Alhzeimers, but with TBI (traumatic brain injury). Scenario: husband injured in auto accident. Brain affected such that husband's personality is significantly altered and he becomes moody, unpredictable, and violent. He'll never be able to work so draws disability. Wife now has two people to care for, while she tries to work, one of whom is sometimes violent towards her and the 8 year old. I've seen women go in similar situations stay in the marriage...and I've seen other women leave.

But Pat wasn't talking about a young person; he was talking about a long time marriage. And I've seen older people in these situations, none of whom have divorced their spouses. They've decided that infidelity (emotional or sexual) is better than divorce because they love the spouse they once had; they visit the spouse regularly; they still care for the person that's locked inside the outer shell.

Pat is saying that there are only two choices: infidelity or divorce. He's wrong. One can remain faithful to the love one once had, while acknowledging that one needs and deserves a life. It isn't easy, but better than what Pat proposes. Ask Sandra Day.... (and yeah, I disagree with her politics, but admire her position vis a vis her husband.)

[Black Aliss]

There are circumstances where divorcing a spouse with dementia is the compassionate thing to do. For instance, when there are still children in the home and when the costs of long-term care would create a serious financial hardship for the family of the patient. BUT, to encourage a man to divorce his wife just so that he can get his sexual needs satisfied?!?

As the caregiver of a spouse with dementia, who has had to rely on technology for certain needs for over a decade, I am offended.

[ChickeyMonkey]

Well, Alzheimer's is the death of nerve cells in the brain. Have you seen scans of brains with Alzheimer's? It's scary to see the brain matter that's been lost and to think about how that affects the person who has it.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

My grandmother had early onset Alzheimer's. Went from being a "bit off" in her late 40s to rapidly de-compensating after 50-ish and finally passing away a few years later. Granddad took care of her until she died but was bitter towards my aunts and my mom for years afterwards because he had expected them all to drop their marriages/small children/jobs and move in with him to help care for grandmother until she passed. And then they all got enraged with HIM when he finally started dating again -- some three+ odd years after grandma had passed.

/Alzheimer's sucks all around

//did my geriatric clinical in a pretty awesome treatment care model setting for Alzheimer's patients 'tho

///but you can only really afford it if you're, like, independently wealthy

[Bella99]

I think that putting someone with Altzhiemers in a nursing home is probably the safest and best care possible once they reach the point where you can't feel comfortable taking care of them at home. I certainly do NOT think that doing that is in any way abandoning them. I don't think anyone here thinks differently than that.

But, what Pat Robertson said was that you should feel free to divorce and abandon your spouse if they have altzeimers. would you feel that you would need to do that to your spouse in order to take care of your 8 year old?

Frankly, it boils down to money and time. If I am caring for a spouse with dementia, I cannot be working or taking care of our daughter. To access healthcare or a nursing home if one of us was disabled, we would lose everything we worked to give her. I'm not talking about luxuries, but the stability of living in the same house with her parents. In the neighborhood where her friends live, where our neighbors support each other. Del Greco and I have discussed this - we both feel that our daughter's needs outweigh ours. I would not abandon my husband to have a fling. I would file for divorce if that was the best way to get care for him and protect our child.

[mythoughtis]

Bella

Maybe I'm not making myself clear, or maybe I'm reading something into your answers that is not there. I feel that you think I am accusatory towards you.

I do NOT have any problem with what you are saying. Divorcing an ill person to save the family financially and to get that person proper care is a way of taking care of them.

That's not the problem I have with Robertson's statement. My problem with Robertson's statement is that he recommended and approved the TOTAL ABANDONMENT of the ill now-ex-spouse and proceeding on with your life just as if you divorced a cheater. He also said absolutely nothing about the financial cost of it, just that it was better to divorce the ill spouse so you could go have sex with someone else.... rather than stay married to the ill person and see other people.

My original point to you was that you wouldn't need to TOTALLY abandon an ill spouse to take care of an 8 year old, even though you divorced them for financial reasons so that they could get care. I assume you would regularly visit them when you could (sometimes a good care facility is quite a bit away, so visits would be fewer), and try to keep good memories of them in your child? I assume you would monitor their care, etc? But in your heart, you would still care about them?

[fundiefan]

I regularly view LIFE'S pictures of the week and other photo series. Just yesterday they posted a Pat Robertson series, with pictures of him of course, but accompanied by some of his more ridiculous statements. It was quite creepy, really, to take it in all at once. I know the man is an ass but to have him summarized like that just made my skin crawl.

[fundifugee]

I can see that someone might be in that ghastly position, though probably not with Alhzeimers, but with TBI (traumatic brain injury). Scenario: husband injured in auto accident. Brain affected such that husband's personality is significantly altered and he becomes moody, unpredictable, and violent. He'll never be able to work so draws disability. Wife now has two people to care for, while she tries to work, one of whom is sometimes violent towards her and the 8 year old. I've seen women go in similar situations stay in the marriage...and I've seen other women leave.

But Pat wasn't talking about a young person; he was talking about a long time marriage. And I've seen older people in these situations, none of whom have divorced their spouses. They've decided that infidelity (emotional or sexual) is better than divorce because they love the spouse they once had; they visit the spouse regularly; they still care for the person that's locked inside the outer shell.

Pat is saying that there are only two choices: infidelity or divorce. He's wrong. One can remain faithful to the love one once had, while acknowledging that one needs and deserves a life. It isn't easy, but better than what Pat proposes. Ask Sandra Day.... (and yeah, I disagree with her politics, but admire her position vis a vis her husband.)

I agree with gustava.

One of the most beautiful things I've ever seen was during my geriatrics clinical. There was a woman with advanced dementia, who didn't really recognize any of her family anymore. But her husband would show up at her locked unit every day, dressed in a suit and tie. The staff would tell her she had a gentleman caller, or a hot date, and she would get all dressed up and they'd take a walk in the garden. It was a first date every day.

If that gentleman had another companion at home, I wouldn't fault him. But he still found a way to show love to his life partner every day.

(Now to ruin a truly lovely story; people with dementia have 'needs' too, and I have seen demented old guys trying to get it on with their sisters and daughters and wives because they've forgotten who is who. I wonder what Pat would think about THAT.)

[Antigone]

This hits really close to home, since I will be a caretaker/spouse someday when my hubby's disease degenerates to the point of dementia. To keep it short and sweet without writing a novel, I think each situation/family is different. I wouldn't blame anyone for divorcing their spouse or putting them in a home- it's all about how people deal with the difficulty of being a caretaker. I've been one for years, and I know I will be one again. Not everyone is cut out to be a caretaker, nurse, etc- and I respect that as long as there is consideration for the person afflicted with the illness, do whatever works to provide them wit a good quality of life/happiness.

Ugh. I have lost all mild disgust toward him and moved on toward total intolerance of that asshat.