Another Day In The Neighborhood, Another Mass Shooting

[PregnantPornStar]

No. You please show me and the others that CNN or MSNBC possibly broke in. You made the assertion. You back it up.

I am telling you what I witnessed. So to recap, I was watching the live feed and there was law enforcement on site including several FBI agents. Anderson Cooper questioned whether the reporters could or should go in, and the reporters and Cooper where told on air by the landlord and the agents they could go in because the investigation of the apartment had finished. You honest to god think CNN would break into an apartment while on air of an active crime scene right in front of law enforcement and agents? Why call out those two news sources when there where a shit ton of other reporters in the apartment at the same time? Believe what you want, but there was no breaking into any apartment. 

I am pointing out the lack of integrity the media has. But, defend away. 

I mean this thread is absurd. The early posts were full of speculation...

[sawasdee]

I am pointing out the lack of integrity the media has. But, defend away. 

I mean this thread is absurd. The early posts were full of speculation...

Speculation is fair before the facts emerge. It is not fair when the facts are out there, and ignored.

[Whoosh]

Another way of wording it is "proven factually false".

 

This is where my screenname comes from.

[Mecca]

PPS, I read the article you linked. It states "Police didn’t appear to know the media tour was going on." That is not true. There were police at the scene and at the front door of the apartment while people where going in and out. Heck, there was a woman with her dog and another woman with her children rummaging through the place. I admit I was a bit concerned that the media was allowed access so soon, but I can assure you and others they got permission before entering. 

[PregnantPornStar]

I'm waiting for the inevitable "if only everyone had been armed, this wouldn't have happened."

At this rate, we don't need to worry about foreign terrorists. We're managing to kill ourselves without much help. This makes me sick.

I'm more concerned about white gun nuts than any other type of terrorist. What's especially bad is that the building they targeted is one that provides services to children and adults with developmental disabilities.

That's what doesn't make any sense. Why this business? If it were someone just disgruntled with their job, I would think that person would be very unlikely to get 2 others on board with shooting up the place.

I've been trying to find out info on what Inland Regional Center does, and I don't see anything that would invoke this kind of rage (like the PP shooting--yeah, not justified, but inevitable with all the rhetoric about "ZOMG!!111 teh dead babeez!!!!").

The closest thing I've been able to find (it came up in the top 4 google results) was that the center had sex ed classes for the developmentally disabled. Would that be enough to get some whackos pissed?

But: 3 highly-armed, masked and (possibly) body-armor-wearing shooters: Sounds like "terrorism" to me.

ETA: An "outside group" was renting the conference facility in the Inland Regional Center, and this is apparently where most of the shooting took place (??). I wonder who this group was and if the shooters had beef with them. The websites for Inland Regional appear to be down right now due to high traffic.

I know in conservative, pro-life discourse that disabled people are fetishized and objectified as "angels" and "precious," and would consider the idea of sullying the "innocence" of such people with sex education to be horrifying. Such a view ignores the fact that disabled people have a normal spectrum of sexual identities, and it's not uncommon for teens and adults with disabilities to go to libraries and/or the Internet to get the information their parents and teachers refuse to give them. The idea that disabled people are entitled to reproductive and sexual freedom is why the US refuses to sign that UN treaty on the rights of the disabled, even though it's based on our own ADA.

However, I can't see a sex ed class leading to three masked men shooting up a facility for the disabled and possibly planting a bomb. Sex ed can be a prickly topic, but not in the same way abortion is. The only thing I can think of is that it's a soft target with some of the most vulnerable targets imaginable, which would make it attractive to terrorists. The facility is government-run, so it could be motivated by anti-government sentiments. However, given how people recoiled at the carnage wrought by the Oklahoma City bombing, killing disabled people is not going to inspire the masses to rise up against the government. Not that anyone who would commit this attack is motivated by the same logic you and I use. I guess we'll get more information soon.

It's baffling to see that shit like this is happening over and over again, yet no one is doing anything about it. I used to cry about events like this, but I've grown numb. 

How much do you want to bet that they won't call them terrorists if they're white?

Speculating galore. 

I mean, sadly, I don't even know why anyone was speculating the way they were. It is either head in the sand, complete denial or you were pretending to think this was something other than it was. I mean, it is fair to not be positive "who" they attackers were, but completely ruling out jihadists? Come on.  

[Mecca]

I am pointing out the lack of integrity the media has. But, defend away. 

I mean this thread is absurd. The early posts were full of speculation...

And I am telling you CNN and MSNBC did not break into the apartment. Simple as that. I know you really hate to be wrong, but you are wrong. 

[PregnantPornStar]

Speculation is fair before the facts emerge. It is not fair when the facts are out there, and ignored.

So if I had speculated this was islamic terrorists before it was a known fact that would have been okay? Bullshit. 

 

[sawasdee]

 

 

 

 

Speculating galore. 

I mean, sadly, I don't even know why anyone was speculating the way they were. It is either head in the sand, complete denial or you were pretending to think this was something other than it was. I mean, it is fair to not be positive "who" they attackers were, but completely ruling out jihadists? Come on.  

Yes, speculation galore - before any facts emerged. On those facts that were available, it did look like business as usual  There have been over 350 mass shootings so far this year involving 4 or more people injured. Even taking the definition to mean 4 or more dead, there have been at least 29 incidents. Of those 29, precisely none involved Islamic terrorists. Therefore I take it that it would be an assumption because of their names, rather than previous experience, which would lead anyone to speculate Islamic terrorism. THAT is racism.

 

 

 

 

[Mecca]

Speculating galore. 

But you see, all those other posters did not come into this thread and claim what you claimed regarding spectulation and facts. It appears you want to hold others to a standard you cannot keep yourself. 

And for the love of all things holy, can you for once not take a big ass dump in the middle of a thread and then act like you do nothing wrong? I don't want to be that person that gets cranky with fellow posters because I have been here for years and get along with just about anyone, but I am at the point with you that I hope you birth that pornstar baby of yours and take a permanent maternity leave if you can't get your act together. 

[PregnantPornStar]

Yes, speculation galore - before any facts emerged. On those facts that were available, it did look like business as usual  There have been over 350 mass shootings so far this year involving 4 or more people injured. Even taking the definition to mean 4 or more dead, there have been at least 29 incidents. Of those 29, precisely none involved Islamic terrorists. Therefore I take it that it would be an assumption because of their names, rather than previous experience, which would lead anyone to speculate Islamic terrorism. THAT is racism.

 

 

 

 

I considered the possibility prior to having names...but okay, speculate that I used names.

[sawasdee]

 

I considered the possibility prior to having names...but okay, speculate that I used names.

The fact that you do not consider that racist takes my breath away! Can you not see that all the facts on mass shootings would tend to infer a non Islamic shooter? Even after this instance, the odds for this year are still 29 to 1 against!

[PregnantPornStar]

The fact that you do not consider that racist takes my breath away! Can you not see that all the facts on mass shootings would tend to infer a non Islamic shooter? Even after this instance, the odds for this year are still 29 to 1 against!

Racist against Islamic terrorists? And, there were things that made me scratch my head and wonder if it was not...but yeah, I didn't toss the possibility out the door. "Mass shootings" don't typically have multiple shooters to start...so, pattern analysis.

[sawasdee]

 

Racist against Islamic terrorists? And, there were things that made me scratch my head and wonder if it was not...but yeah, I didn't toss the possibility out the door. "Mass shootings" don't typically have multiple shooters to start...so, pattern analysis.

And Muslim attacks in the US have not been shootings - so , pattern analysis.

By the way, I found two mass shootings in the last 4 years involving 2 or more non Islamic shooters -  I found one involving Islamic shooters. The odds are still against. To assume, or to speculate, without evidence, is dangerous, and you seem to make a habit of it.

[Whoosh]

We had a multiple shooter multiple shooting on thanksgiving - I am so just not understanding any of this.

[Curious]

I am pointing out the lack of integrity the media has. But, defend away. 

I mean this thread is absurd. The early posts were full of speculation...

I'm not sure why I am bothering, but apparently I am a glutton for punishment.

You are pointing out the lack of integrity in the media by accusing them of breaking the law when they didn't actually do that?   I don't think you are using the word integrity correctly (just like many other words you use.  Words have meaning here on FJ, as a reminder).

Speculation BEFORE facts are known is normal.   Saying the media "probably broke in" to a crime scene is NOT normal.   Once facts become known people stopped speculating and this thread went along fine in WWoS until YOU once again had to shit on the carpets.

You can say stuff without being a jerk, you've done it before.   On this (and similar) topics you seem unable to do that, which leads me (and probably others) to figure it's how you really feel about stuff and you aren't accidentally "slipping" when you say the stuff you say.

[Mecca]

In regards to guns and this situation, gun control still is an important element we need to consider here regardless of what terrorist have and have not used in the past to terrorize. I think the United States is putting a target on its citizens backs if the legislators don't do some regulation. ISIS and other terrorist organizations will take advantage of our lax gun laws and use those same lax gun laws to kill more innocent people. If the Right is going to make the claim we must stop terrorist and we must do everything in our power to protect the people, they can start by making it a whole hell of a lot harder to obtain guns and ammunition. 

[latraviata]

In regards to guns and this situation, gun control still is an important element we need to consider here regardless of what terrorist have and have not used in the past to terrorize. I think the United States is putting a target on its citizens backs if the legislators don't do some regulation. ISIS and other terrorist organizations will take advantage of our lax gun laws and use those same lax gun laws to kill more innocent people. If the Right is going to make the claim we must stop terrorist and we must do everything in our power to protect the people, they can start by making it a whole hell of a lot harder to obtain guns and ammunition. 

Gun control didn't help the European countries....as far as islamic terrorism is concerned...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

Call me a racist!

[sawasdee]

According to Everytown for Gun Safety, in shootings leaving four or more dead between 2009 and mid 2015, in  57% of cases the victims included a current or former partner, or a family member, of the shooter. This suggests to me that the incidence of mass shootings  in the US is a much wider question than that of terrorism, and has much more to do with gun control.

www.vox.com/2015/8/24/9183525/gun-violence-statistics

I posted this link before;its statistics on levels of gun violence in states with greater or lesser gun control are very interesting, as are those comparing gun violence in westernised societies. Suicide rates, in particular, are higher where guns are more readily available.

[ADoyle90815]

There's a really sad story about the boyfriend of one of the victims who kept getting conflicting reports and wasn't able to find out for 22 hours what really happened to his boyfriend. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-daniel-kaufman-boyfriend-20151203-story.html I can't even imagine what an emotional rollercoaster that would be. 

Daniel Kaufman was big in the Renaissance Faire in southern California. I never knew him as I didn't work at that event, but a few of my friends did. Still, this hits home.

[Curious]

Gun control didn't help the European countries....as far as islamic terrorism is concerned...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

Call me a racist!

You're a racist (I aim to please).

On another note, what does that link have to do with gun control not helping European countries as far as Islamic terrorism is concerned.   I went there and it mostly seemed to be stories about the recent shooting, which took place in the US not Europe.

[Cleopatra7]

 

 

 

 

Speculating galore. 

I mean, sadly, I don't even know why anyone was speculating the way they were. It is either head in the sand, complete denial or you were pretending to think this was something other than it was. I mean, it is fair to not be positive "who" they attackers were, but completely ruling out jihadists? Come on.  

I speculated on this before the all the facts came out. However, if you look at the statistics, right-wing terrorism kills more Americans than Islamic terrorism, although the latter are under more surveillance than the latter and are more often arrested:

http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

However, if you examine the above link, you'll see that the number of people killed by terrorism in general is quite small (45 Americans killed by Islamic terrorism since 9/11 vs 48 Americans killed by right-wing terrorists since 9/11) compared to the number of Americans killed by gun violence in general (12,223 Americans killed by guns this year). Given that there have been 353 mass shootings in the United States this year and only one of them involved jihadists, it was quite sensible not to automatically assume that the San Bernadino shooting involved jihadists, because statistically speaking, most of the gun violence in this country is not being committed by sympathizers of ISIS or Al-Qaeda. 

[latraviata]

You're a racist (I aim to please).

On another note, what does that link have to do with gun control not helping European countries as far as Islamic terrorism is concerned.   I went there and it mostly seemed to be stories about the recent shooting, which took place in the US not Europe.

Do I have to spell it out for you?

We have islamic terrorist attacks as you very well know. Blathering about US gun laws (which I find ridiculous, the laws I mean) has no relevance in the current events. Calling me a racist is very cheap, stupid and shows your utter ignorance on the matter.

[sawasdee]

Do I have to spell it out for you?

We have islamic terrorist attacks as you very well know. Blathering about US gun laws (which I find ridiculous, the laws I mean) has no relevance in the current events. Calling me a racist is very cheap, stupid and shows your utter ignorance on the matter.

 

A) Yes we know we have Islamic attacks. What is being discussed by all but two contributors to this thread is, actually, gun violence, gun laws, and the lack of will by much of the political spectrum in the US to address the problem. As many have pointed out, guns have not been the Islamic terrorist weapon of choice before in the US.

B)I, too, am a European. I have many Dutch and Flemish friends, but I have never encountered anyone, of any nationality, as unwilling to listen, and as quick to patronise and be rude, as you. In fact, the only other place I have met with such boorishness is on the comments of some of the links you have recommended. I was always taught that to argue well, you argue with respect. You have shown none.

[latraviata]

 

A) Yes we know we have Islamic attacks. What is being discussed by all but two contributors to this thread is, actually, gun violence, gun laws, and the lack of will by much of the political spectrum in the US to address the problem. As many have pointed out, guns have not been the Islamic terrorist weapon of choice before in the US.

B)I, too, am a European. I have many Dutch and Flemish friends, but I have never encountered anyone, of any nationality, as unwilling to listen, and as quick to patronise and be rude, as you. In fact, the only other place I have met with such boorishness is on the comments of some of the links you have recommended. I was always taught that to argue well, you argue with respect. You have shown none.

I think I have a lot more Dutch and Flemish friends that you have. Not exactly racist circles. Perhaps you are not fully aware of the fact, that voices like racist, islamophobia are growing dumb very rapidly!

[Mecca]

Gun control didn't help the European countries....as far as islamic terrorism is concerned...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

Call me a racist!

Why would I call you a racist? I am not interested in the type of discussion where you go off the rails at me for no good reason.

Anyway, the link did nothing for me. It took me to a page that talked about the recent shootings and did not back up your claim. Regardless, because the U.S. has rather easy access to guns, it would not be a far fetched approach for terrorist networks to seek out people with clean records to do their bidding. Stricker gun laws could help curb some terrorist acts. Why make it easier for them to get ahold of weapons? I thought that would make you happy considering your vocal stance in this area.

With being said, are you suggesting we should stuff gun control in the States, because it is not just Islamic terrorists that are killing U.S. citizens? We do a good job on our own.