Another Day In The Neighborhood, Another Mass Shooting

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

My heart breaks for the 6 month old girl.  What a sad and heavy legacy to leave for your child.  

I read that the gunman was already being investigated by the FBI.  We have heard with many shootings that the perpetrators were already on the radar of FBI or local law enforcement.  I got pulled over after my car registration was a week overdue but yet it seems there are so many people running around who are suspected of being involved in activities that are dangerous to the community.  It just doesn't make sense.  

[VelociRapture]

I wish people would talk more about suicide when it comes to gun ownership. If someone is suicidal they are more likely to end up dead if they have access to a gun than if they don't. I've seen a lot of people say otherwise, claiming if you take one means away that a suicidal person will just find another way of ending their life, but that's just not true. Many studies have shown that removing access to one means of suicide (like putting a net on a bridge that gets a lot of jumpers) reduces the suicide rate overall. 

With gun suicides a lot of them are men who acted on impulse and if they hadn't had such a lethal method available it is possible, even likely that the impulse enough have subsided and they would have survived. 

My Aunt took the gun from her parents' house and used it to kill herself over twenty years ago. It's a fact I know all too well, but it's a fact that is also incredibly painful for me to discuss - I would assume many other families feel the same way and that might be why so many of us don't speak out about it more. I do agree more needs to be pointed out about that link though. Maybe one day I'll feel up to it.

And as a very sad aside: following all these mass shootings the one thing I consistently feel is gratitude for the fact that my Aunt was loving and moral enough to only take her own life.

My heart breaks for the 6 month old girl.  What a sad and heavy legacy to leave for your child.  

I read that the gunman was already being investigated by the FBI.  We have heard with many shootings that the perpetrators were already on the radar of FBI or local law enforcement.  I got pulled over after my car registration was a week overdue but yet it seems there are so many people running around who are suspected of being involved in activities that are dangerous to the community.  It just doesn't make sense.  

Police can't act unless they have credible evidence. The shooter(s) may have been under suspicion, but there may not have been enough proof to warrant an arrest.

And yes, my heart absolutely breaks for that poor little girl. The fact that anyone is capable of such horrors is something I can't comprehend - the fact that they did so when they have a beautiful little baby to love makes it so much worse somehow.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Thank you @Woosh for the informative post.  

I asked this in the Specularium too because someone else mentioned it, but maybe it fits better here.  What about  a referendum.  Here we can demand a referendum with a petition signed by more than 500 000 people or by 50 parliamentarians (if I remember correctly). Is something of the likes possible in the USA? Do you think that there are enough people who want stricter gun laws?

[PregnantPornStar]

So, FBI has declared this Terrorism. Duh. Female had already posted an Oath of allegiance to ISIS, and last I saw, the WH was still saying they still don't know. 

Also, MSNBC and CNN have managed to get into the home of the terrorists. Either the landlord let them in or they broke in (seems very possible they broke in). They are claiming the FBI was finished the investigation. Less than 48 hours after the attacks took place. Maybe they had the go ahead, but seems strange.

So, this whole thing is a complete mess, nobody (generalizing here)  wants to call it what it is and are discussing everything under the sun OTHER than Islamist Terrorism that could be the cause. Go ahead and discuss guns and whatnot, but why not the type of terrorism this is.  Based on what we have seen since 9/11 (and previously really) Islamic Terrorism hasn't exclusively relied on guns. I am not saying this to defend guns. That is a different topic, but I think it is foolish to say that taking guns away is going to stop "these people". 

I find the whole narrative ridiculous.  I honestly don't fucking get it.  

[PregnantPornStar]

What annoys me about this latest shooting is that now that the suspects appear to be self-radicalized Muslims, you know there's going to be a new round of legislation and investigations into Islamic terrorism. In comparison, if the shooters had been a white couple or two white guys, we'd just be hearing, "Well, these things just happen, and the shooters were probably just a couple of fringe nutcases."

But, one of the terrorists posted an "oath" swearing allegiance to ISIS. Whether or not they had direct contact with ISIS is still up for debate, but ISIS publishes stuff to inform others what they can do. I don't know if that would qualify as "self-radicalized".  This is happening more and more (and is already happening ALL the time in certain parts of the world. Daily.) "White" people are not attacking abortion clinics on a daily basis.  We are talking physically if anyone wants to tell me about phone calls or mail received. We can always talk about left and right winged terrorism, but the fact is, those acts don't make Islamic Terrorism any less real. The last time we saw Islamic terrorism happen was when? An attack on an abortion clinic? (Previous to the SB and Colorado Springs) 

So, if you want legislation and investigation into anti-abortion activism, you can attempt to make that happen. 

Slaughtering people because of your ideology is always a really shitty thing to do. 

 

 

[VelociRapture]

So, FBI has declared this Terrorism. Duh. Female had already posted an Oath of allegiance to ISIS, and last I saw, the WH was still saying they still don't know. 

Also, MSNBC and CNN have managed to get into the home of the terrorists. Either the landlord let them in or they broke in (seems very possible they broke in). They are claiming the FBI was finished the investigation. Less than 48 hours after the attacks took place. Maybe they had the go ahead, but seems strange.

So, this whole thing is a complete mess, nobody (generalizing here)  wants to call it what it is and are discussing everything under the sun OTHER than Islamist Terrorism that could be the cause. Go ahead and discuss guns and whatnot, but why not the type of terrorism this is.  Based on what we have seen since 9/11 (and previously really) Islamic Terrorism hasn't exclusively relied on guns. I am not saying this to defend guns. That is a different topic, but I think it is foolish to say that taking guns away is going to stop "these people". 

I find the whole narrative ridiculous.  I honestly don't fucking get it.  

Terrorism as the common person defines it is different from how the Government or Law Enforcement defines it.

They can't label something as Terrorism until they know whether there is a political motivation behind it. They can't know that until they start to analyze the evidence and speak with witnesses to see if anything was said that could indicate motive. Considering the shooters said nothing at all and they took steps to cover their tracks electronically, it makes sense to me that they would proceed with caution and not immediately label the shooting as terrorism.

Same goes for the President's response yesterday - far better that he proceed with caution than immediately declare something and be proven wrong (or worse, use language that provokes retaliatory violence against innocent people.)

[Destiny]

"White" people are not attacking abortion clinics on a daily basis.  We are talking physically if anyone wants to tell me about phone calls or mail received. We can always talk about left and right winged terrorism, but the fact is, those acts don't make Islamic Terrorism any less real. The last time we saw Islamic terrorism happen was when? An attack on an abortion clinic?

http://prochoice.org/education-and-advocacy/violence/violence-statistics-and-history/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/01/planned-parenthood-attack-clinic-dangers/76613822/

You, madam, are a racist asshole. Stop making these attacks about white vs brown to further your anti-Islam agenda.

[PregnantPornStar]

Terrorism as the common person defines it is different from how the Government or Law Enforcement defines it.

They can't label something as Terrorism until they know whether there is a political motivation behind it. They can't know that until they start to analyze the evidence and speak with witnesses to see if anything was said that could indicate motive. Considering the shooters said nothing at all and they took steps to cover their tracks electronically, it makes sense to me that they would proceed with caution and not immediately label the shooting as terrorism.

Same goes for the President's response yesterday - far better that he proceed with caution than immediately declare something and be proven wrong (or worse, use language that provokes retaliatory violence against innocent people.)

Could you show me where you have seen the shooters said nothing at all?

And thanks for explaining the terrorism thing to me. My point is the FBI has declared it terrorism. 

I am pretty sure Obama was quick to comment on Dear "terrorizing an entire community". Also, as the attacks were still happening in Paris and video had been released, video I had already seen and was being reported everywhere, of the terrorists shouting "Allah Akbar", he stated he didn't want to "speculate". 

Which is fine, don't speculate until you have the facts, but we now have confirmation it is terrorism. The FBI announced it.

http://prochoice.org/education-and-advocacy/violence/violence-statistics-and-history/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/01/planned-parenthood-attack-clinic-dangers/76613822/

You madam, are a racist asshole. Stop making these attacks about white vs brown to further your anti-Islam agenda.

I am not the one who keeps talking about white people/white couples. It was said by OTHERS above...which is why I am referring to it. 

Believe me, attacks on PP piss me the fuck off, as attacking ANY innocent people pisses me the fuck off. For fucks sake, the Boston Bombers were white guys. Islam isn't exclusive to race. So, call me racist, but I never said anything about "brown people".  I was talking about Islamic Terrorists. That isn't even talking about Muslims as a whole, but Islamic Terrorists. 

[VelociRapture]

Could you show me where you have seen the shooters said nothing at all?

And thanks for explaining the terrorism thing to me. My point is the FBI has declared it terrorism. 

I am pretty sure Obama was quick to comment on Dear "terrorizing an entire community". Also, as the attacks were still happening in Paris and video had been released, video I had already seen and was being reported everywhere, of the terrorists shouting "Allah Akbar", he stated he didn't want to "speculate". 

Which is fine, don't speculate until you have the facts, but we now have confirmation it is terrorism. The FBI announced it.

Sorry. Should have included a link for that earlier. Here you go:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/san-bernardino-shooting-witness-texted-husband-love-gunfire/story?id=35537593

From the opening paragraph:

A shooting survivor who was at the Inland Regional Center said the gunmen entered the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, California without saying a word and opened fire, her parents told ABC News, adding that she suffered from several gunshot wounds.

So in order to determine whether or not the motive was tied to political or religious ideology in this situation, the FBI needed to wait to look into some of the evidence first.

The FBI only recently declared it terrorism - if I remember correctly, the press conference in which that was revealed was only earlier today. The President released his statement yesterday, before the FBI labelled it as such. Makes perfect sense to me that he wouldn't have labelled it as such before they did - he isn't the one conducting the investigation and he should be proceeding with caution.

Do you have a link about President Obama immediately labeling the Planned Parenthood shooting as terrorizing the community? I'd like to see what he said for myself before commenting on that specifically.

[PregnantPornStar]

 

Sorry. Should have included a link for that earlier. Here you go:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/san-bernardino-shooting-witness-texted-husband-love-gunfire/story?id=35537593

From the opening paragraph:

So in order to determine whether or not the motive was tied to political or religious ideology in this situation, the FBI needed to wait to look into some of the evidence first.

The FBI only recently declared it terrorism - if I remember correctly, the press conference in which that was revealed was only earlier today. The President released his statement yesterday, before the FBI labelled it as such. Makes perfect sense to me that he wouldn't have labelled it as such before they did - he isn't the one conducting the investigation and he should be proceeding with caution.

Right, my original comment was meant to point out the FBI has called it terrorism. TODAY. I should have been clearer. It is fine if he didn't want to call it that before...but, he did it pretty quickly after the PP shooting.

Do you have a link about President Obama immediately labeling the Planned Parenthood shooting as terrorizing the community? I'd like to see what he said for myself before commenting on that specifically.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/11/28/statement-president-0

[Rachel333]

Terrorism associated with Islam is happening at a much higher rate than abortion clinic violence though, isn't it? I don't know how useful the comparison is, though. It seems pretty clear now that both recent events were terrorism, but I do think it's wise to wait for all the facts before you make that declaration.

I do think the religion is a problem when it comes to these situations with Muslim terrorism and I have no problem saying the same about Christianity. It's not the only problem and I'm not even sure if I would say it's the main problem, but there are a lot of really nasty, violent stuff in both the Qur'an and the Bible. There are good things about both religions too, and that's just talking about the doctrines themselves. There are a lot of wonderful people in both religions and I do tend to feel differently about the people in a religion than I do about the religion itself. Earlier in the year I was in a theology class and people were talking about the violent teachings of the Qur'an and I think I annoyed a few people when I suggested giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt as most of them probably ignore their unsavory scriptures as much as we (meaning Christians) do. 

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think Islam is fundamentally worse or better than Christianity. Christianity absolutely has the potential to inspire the same type of violence. It did for most of its history and I think it could again if the conditions were right. (I mean, if some of the fundies we talk about here had complete control over the government we could easily get a theocracy as restrictive as Saudi Arabia.) It's not on the same scale as Muslim terrorism currently, but even now there are people doing horrible things in the name of Christianity. Look at the Lord's Resistance Army or the recent situation in the Central African Republic where Christians have been slaughtering Muslims. Neither is purely based on doctrine but is more of a reaction to the political climate, much like the situation for a lot of Muslims in the Middle East.

I do really dislike the "They're not true Christians/Muslims/Scotsmen" argument. People say this about the WBC a lot and it's very true they they aren't representative of Christianity but you can't just say that the only real Christians are the ones you like.

I'm thinking mostly about Christianity now because that's what I know, but it bothers me when everything wrong within a religion is blamed on people. You hear this a lot from Christians who believe that God and the Bible are perfect, but people can mess up. It frustrates me because I think most Christians I've known have been genuinely good people who believe some disturbing things. At what point do you stop blaming the people and admit that there might also be a problem with the doctrine?

[VelociRapture]

Right, my original comment was meant to point out the FBI has called it terrorism. TODAY. I should have been clearer. It is fine if he didn't want to call it that before...but, he did it pretty quickly after the PP shooting.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/11/28/statement-president-0

Thanks for the link!

I looked through the statement. While he does use the term "terrorizing" he uses it in the sense of "causing fear" - not in the sense of "this man had political motives for waging violence against others." Obama even flat out states that there is no known motive (at the time of the statement.)

I do think he could have chosen a slightly different word though - it would have avoided confusion on the subject.

And thank you for the clarification as well.

[PregnantPornStar]

Thanks for the link!

I looked through the statement. While he does use the term "terrorizing" he uses it in the sense of "causing fear" - not in the sense of "this man had political motives for waging violence against others." Obama even flat out states that there is no known motive (at the time of the statement.)

I do think he could have chosen a slightly different word though - it would have avoided confusion on the subject.

And thank you for the clarification as well.

He should have worded it differently and been as careful and cautious as he has been with any Islamic Terrorism.  I do agree that he did use the term differently, but, be cautious across the board. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Fundamentalisms (plural) and extremisms (also plural) tend to appeal to people who think that  things are black or white tertium non datur (dualistic thought) and are unable to understand more nuanced thought. Now, we know that there are dangerous unhappy nuts around (it's a matter of statistics,  such people exist) and we know that they are susceptible to "be radicalized" (see find an ideology that fits their nuttiness, lately we hear a lot about fundamentalist Islam, but terrorism wasn't invented by Islamic terrorists), so why do we need to add, to this already dangerous mix, arms free for all and defunding of mental health care and social services in general? That's why, amidst everything else, people are discussing gun laws and more in general what the society,  the nation as a whole is doing to prevent the isolation of people that often precedes and makes radicalization possible.  Clearly stricter gun law aren't the only possible answer to terrorism, but they can be a good answer to other issues  too, such as school massacres, suicide by firearms, nutso shooters and a variety of criminals. Someone asked why if FBI suspected them to be dangerous didn't stop them.  My question is why such an arsenal as they had in their home wasn't enough of a reason to surveil them or to sequester the arms and surveil them. The thing is that it seems that in the USA even terrorists can benefit from the second amendment.

[Cleopatra7]

But, one of the terrorists posted an "oath" swearing allegiance to ISIS. Whether or not they had direct contact with ISIS is still up for debate, but ISIS publishes stuff to inform others what they can do. I don't know if that would qualify as "self-radicalized".  This is happening more and more (and is already happening ALL the time in certain parts of the world. Daily.) "White" people are not attacking abortion clinics on a daily basis.  We are talking physically if anyone wants to tell me about phone calls or mail received. We can always talk about left and right winged terrorism, but the fact is, those acts don't make Islamic Terrorism any less real. The last time we saw Islamic terrorism happen was when? An attack on an abortion clinic? (Previous to the SB and Colorado Springs) 

So, if you want legislation and investigation into anti-abortion activism, you can attempt to make that happen. 

Slaughtering people because of your ideology is always a really shitty thing to do. 

 

 

You completely misunderstood my point. I was trying to point out the inconsistencies in how many Americans perceive acts of violence. The number of Americans killed by Islamic terrorism is actually quite small when compared with the number of Americans killed in gun violence in the general sense. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight against Islamic terrorism with appropriate means, but it seems absurd to me to see people hyperventilating over ISIS, a group that will probably never directly affect them, and then shrug their shoulders at the garden variety gun violence that is much more likely to impact them. In fact, there is actually a federal law that essentially bans public health research into gun violence:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/12/02/hours-before-san-bernardino-mass-shooting-doctors-were-on-capitol-hill-petitioning-congress-to-lift-ban-on-gun-violence-research/

To me, there's a huge amount of hypocrisy that we'll do whatever is possible to end Islamic extremism, but could care less when the exact same act (a mass shooting in this case) is done by an angry beta male who hangs out on 4chan all day. All terrorism isn't even treated the same. The Ku Klux Klan was fairly mainstream for most of its existence, and the first iteration of the group that operated during Reconstruction achieved all of its goals, including getting federal troops out of the South, being allowed to disenfranchise blacks, and violate black civil rights via Jim Crow laws. Two of the greatest films in movie history, "The Birth of a Nation" and "Gone With the Wind" depicted the KKK as heroes.  The Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 killed more people than the Paris attacks, but there was no attempt by the federal government to root out far-right terrorism. Dylann Roof, the shooter who killed nine people at Charleston black church earlier this year, would also be considered a terrorist because he thought that he was going to spark a race war. Yet he was just dismissed as a fringe loser, not a terrorist, even though he was self-radicalized through going to racist websites. Even suggesting that far-right terrorism is a thing leads to cries of persecution by conservatives:

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/7/americas-biggest-terror-threat-is-from-the-far-right.html

It's much easier to rally support for anti-terrorism activities when the subjects are a bunch of strange brown people than when it might involve Bob with a grudge against the government.

[Curious]

And away we go.   I'm sorry to the folks that managed to discuss this topic in an appropriate manner that I have to move yet another thread.

 

[2manyKidzzz]

In this case it is the tie to an international group that is shooting up Paris, beheading people and ......the list goes on. With ties like that, to Isis, a pledge of allegiance to them, that creates fear in a larger sense at this time. 

[Whoosh]

The multiple shooting in a crowded public place down the street from my house in the past few weeks had nothing to do with Islam or terrorists.  How about you?

[Mecca]

Just to clarifying  -- I was watching the news live before, during, and after the press was in the apartment of the attackers. CNN and MSNBC did not break in. The landlord got the clearance to take back his property because the investigation of the apartment was finished. There where law enforcement at the site when this went down. The landlord used a crow bar to open the front door of the apartment and he invited all the press to come in and view the apartment, not just CNN and MSNBC. There was about 75 different reporters on site at the time, plus a few curious neighbors. I don't know where the idea that it was just CNN and MSNBC on site and the reporters from those channels possibly broke in, but that would be completely incorrect to suggest such. 

 

 

 

 

[GodsKnickers]

Oh for the effing flying eff love of gobstoppers.

[Mecca]

I am sorry, but I think it is rather funny that the same poster that is saying people should not speculate until they have the facts was all about speculating the situation of the apartment without the facts. 

[PregnantPornStar]

And away we go.   I'm sorry to the folks that managed to discuss this topic in an appropriate manner that I have to move yet another thread.

 

makes sense. I think the theme is that anything to do wth Islam should go here. Including, of course, being mean to Islamic Terrorists and calling them what they are. 

Still, anyone affiliated with ISIS or pledging allegiance to ISIS, regardless of skin color, is fair game for insulting. At least in my opinion. 

I am sorry, but I think it is rather funny that the same poster that is saying people should not speculate until they have the facts was all about speculating the situation of the apartment without the facts. 

please show me where it has been confirmed the investigation was complete. 

 

[GodsKnickers]

You can just fuck the fuck off. Christ on a dadgummed flying pogo stick.

[PregnantPornStar]

makes sense. I think the theme is that anything to do wth Islam should go here. Including, of course, being mean to Islamic Terrorists and calling them what they are. 

Still, anyone affiliated with ISIS or pledging allegiance to ISIS, regardless of skin color, is fair game for insulting. At least in my opinion. 

please show me where it has been confirmed the investigation was complete. 

 

My point being that a terrorist investigation was completed in less than 48 hours...and the media was in there not giving a single fuck. 

http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/12/what-the-hell-just-happened-on-msnbc/418893/

[Mecca]

No. You please show me and the others that CNN or MSNBC possibly broke in. You made the assertion. You back it up.

I am telling you what I witnessed. So to recap, I was watching the live feed and there was law enforcement on site including several FBI agents. Anderson Cooper questioned whether the reporters could or should go in, and the reporters and Cooper where told on air by the landlord and the agents they could go in because the investigation of the apartment had finished. You honest to god think CNN would break into an apartment while on air of an active crime scene right in front of law enforcement and agents? Why call out those two news sources when there where a shit ton of other reporters in the apartment at the same time? Believe what you want, but there was no breaking into any apartment.