Question for the historians re: Elsie Dinsmore

[Trynn]

I have a question. I have been reading the original Elsie Dinsmore series for the historical content. It's fascinating to me how these Christians lived back then, and most story books nowadays have to be politically correct, but history was not.

But after doing some more reading, my question is this: in the context of Christianity, because this is what the books are supposedly about, was the Dinsmore family normal, or were they the extreme "fundies" of the day? Am I getting an extremely skewed perspective of 1800s christianity, or is it spot on as to how they would've thought/lived back then?

[Hisey]

I've read lots of fiction set in the 1980s, many of which were about Christian families. None of those families acted anything like the Dinsmores.

[Cran]

If anyone wants to read them, many of them are online at the Project Gutenberg:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsie_Dins ... t_of_books

[sugaree]

I only plugged through the first book, but I thought the theology as shown was pretty mainstream. Elsie's piety was extreme, but I think that was just because she was such an idolized character. We can put her piety in the same category as her ethereal beauty or her Clydesdale-like work ethic. All unobtainable goals.

[meda]

I also think Elsie is typical of characters in books written for girls in America the 19th century. Other than the characters in Little Women, many of Alcott's characters were profoundly saccharine, and the moral lesson pounded into your head (Rose in Bloom, for example). I think Elsie makes us twitch a bit more than Alcott's characters because Alcott wrote from a northern, transcendentalist perspective, so her views on race and women are more palatable to Female English writers like the Bronte sisters tended to be less moralistic and more "shocking" to their society

The author of the Elsie books was a contemporary of Lucy Maud Montgomery, and LMM's books were considered very modern and somewhat dark for the times.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I also think Elsie is typical of characters in books written for girls in America the 19th century. Other than the characters in Little Women, many of Alcott's characters were profoundly saccharine, and the moral lesson pounded into your head (Rose in Bloom, for example). I think Elsie makes us twitch a bit more than Alcott's characters because Alcott wrote from a northern, transcendentalist perspective, so her views on race and women are more palatable to Female English writers like the Bronte sisters tended to be less moralistic and more "shocking" to their society

The author of the Elsie books was a contemporary of Lucy Maud Montgomery, and LMM's books were considered very modern and somewhat dark for the times.

ITA. Also, for college I read a number of "home and family" books from the 1870s-early 1900s, and the "beat you over the head" style of moralism seems to be pretty common for the time. However, even though Christian morals were very much a part of the books I read, Elsie's piety seems more extreme than most of what I remember reading. Grace Livingston Hill and her aunt Isabella Alden also go pretty heavily into the piety, but even they don't seem to go quite as far as the Elsie Dinsmore books. It's been a while since I've read any of this, though, so I might be forgetting something.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm not an expert on this kind of literature, and I've never read Elsie, but I would imagine that adults of the era would have expected that children be given books that they considered morally wholesome, as opposed to books that were actually enjoyable. So the goodness and piety of the main characters were probably exaggerated and idealized. In fact, I recall reading that a few decades later, series like Nancy Drew were considered unworthy of being stocked in school libraries because they failed to impart any morality (supposedly).

Just on a little bit of a tangent: I bet Nancy Drew would absolutely blow the minds of young girls brought up in extreme patriarchy. On the one hand, Nancy Drew (at least the mid-20th century version of the series I grew up with) was a SAHD herself -- 18 years old, living at home, no apparent plans to leave or go to college, yet independent, wholly competent, adventurous, and determined. I outgrew Nancy pretty young, because the books really are a bit cartoonish, but in retrospect, I think ol' Nance had a significant influence on me, the kind of influence that Dougie would certainly look at with a jaundiced eye.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm not an expert on this kind of literature, and I've never read Elsie, but I would imagine that adults of the era would have expected that children be given books that they considered morally wholesome, as opposed to books that were actually enjoyable. So the goodness and piety of the main characters were probably exaggerated and idealized. In fact, I recall reading that a few decades later, series like Nancy Drew were considered unworthy of being stocked in school libraries because they failed to impart any morality (supposedly).

Just on a little bit of a tangent: I bet Nancy Drew would absolutely blow the minds of young girls brought up in extreme patriarchy. On the one hand, Nancy Drew (at least the mid-20th century version of the series I grew up with) was a SAHD herself -- 18 years old, living at home, no apparent plans to leave or go to college, yet independent, wholly competent, adventurous, and determined. I outgrew Nancy pretty young, because the books really are a bit cartoonish, but in retrospect, I think ol' Nance had a significant influence on me, the kind of influence that Dougie would certainly look at with a jaundiced eye.

If I recall, Nancy also had a seriously cool, banana-yellow convertible given to her by her father, and she frequently went off on jaunts without her father, or any other maie authority. When the first Nancy books were written (in the 1930s) is was consiered SOP for upper-middle-class girls like her to remain at home until marriage. It was a point of pride to this type of family because it was proof that the father could provide for his family without relying on a wife or daughter's income.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ha ha. Yeah, I think in some versions, it was a "sky blue" convertible. Nancy Drew would also invariably outsmart the male criminals who would satisfyingly whine things like, "I can't be believe I was beaten by a GIRL detective" as they were led off in handcuffs. (Of course, the criminals were inevitably "swarthy" and lower class. Somehow, I didn't catch on as a kid that my Italian-Jewish self wouldn't have been quite-quite in Nancy's circles.)

ON ELSIE: I see in the Wikipedia entry on Elsie Dinsmore, there is a section on Elsie "in popular culture" that includes a number of derisive references to Elsie among her near-contemporaries, including one in an LM Montgomery book. I suspect that Elsie made even a lot of Victorians want to vomit.

I just read the first couple chapters of Elsie for the first time on-line. I'd love to write an alternative version of Elsie. When her uncle Arthur distracts her from her lessons by pulling her hair and spilling her ink, she snarls, "FUCK OFF," and kicks him in the shins. Hmmm . . . I wonder if VF still has that Elsie essay contest. Am I too old to enter?

[Cran]

Made my way through the frist book, and while Elsie is certainly an extreme character, the most extreme part of her religious observance seems to be to "keep the sabbath".

Does anyone remember "Little House in the Big Woods"? Laura tells in it that she has been punished for playing too loudly/wildly on sundays, and that she and her sister were only allowed to play quietly with dolls, and that her father was never allowed to go sledding on holy days.

As this topic seems to creep up in victorian children's literature now and then, I'd wager that her particular behavior is unusual as insofar nearly nobody lived up to this ideal of keeping the sabbath, but that it was a commonly accepted ideal nontheless.

[Guest Anonymous]

I read a bit more of Elsie last night (not the whole thing) and I know it's been said before -- but OMG, what a door-mat. I especially like the parts when Martha Finley will say that Elsie wasn't really perfect because (gasp) she would have angry feelings if Arthur pulled her hair during lessons or if her father punished her unjustly. Because, you know, it's wrong to even FEEL angry when someone mistreats you. But despite her incorrect feelings, at least Elsie was trying to be a really good abuse victim, because she would cry and feel extremely repentant if she thought her father was anything less than perfect when he was behaving like a capricious, bullying asshat.

Of course, the Victorians didn't have the awareness of abuse that we do, nor was anyone in that era talking about psychology. But, still this has to have been fucked the fuck up even for that era. And naturally, none of the Victorian children's literature expected boys to put up with bullshit.

[sugaree]

I don't know if you can say there were no idealized boys in Vic lit. I've never read Little Lord Fauntleroy, but I understand that he was quite cloying. The plotline seems similar to Elsie Dinsmore: little boy is mistreated but eventually wins over his abusers because he's so perfect.

[Cran]

But LLF is not religious, same for Sara, the little princess, who is equally perfect.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sugaree, I forgot all about Little Lord Fauntleroy. I know I read it at some point, but can't remember the details. I seem to recall that he was the perfectly spoiled and petted child, beloved of his mother but perhaps persecuted for being a bit of a mama's boy? I can't remember the details, and I suppose there is a good reason that that book hasn't remained as popular as Frances Hodgson Burnett's others.

I am also now questioning my childhood love of "The Little Princess." The heroine in that story was also persecuted but managed to win people over through her excessive goodness. I am trying to remember the details now, but I think the difference may be that the heroine showed a little more imagination, leadership and gumption than Elsie, who can't seem to do much but cry into her pillow and flagellate herself mentally.

Come to think of it, I wonder why "The Secret Garden" and "The Little Princess" aren't more popular with the fundie set.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh yeah, you're right. Burnett's books really aren't religious. The Secret Garden might even be a bit deist.

[Trynn]

Sugaree, I forgot all about Little Lord Fauntleroy. I know I read it at some point, but can't remember the details. I seem to recall that he was the perfectly spoiled and petted child, beloved of his mother but perhaps persecuted for being a bit of a mama's boy? I can't remember the details, and I suppose there is a good reason that that book hasn't remained as popular as Frances Hodgson Burnett's others.

I am also now questioning my childhood love of "The Little Princess." The heroine in that story was also persecuted but managed to win people over through her excessive goodness. I am trying to remember the details now, but I think the difference may be that the heroine showed a little more imagination, leadership and gumption than Elsie, who can't seem to do much but cry into her pillow and flagellate herself mentally.

Come to think of it, I wonder why "The Secret Garden" and "The Little Princess" aren't more popular with the fundie set.

In The Little Princess what actually ends up happening is that her father's business partner comes looking for her to adopt her. Doesn't really have much to do with kindness on HER part though there is plenty of that.

Also, Sara has a backbone, or at least, as much as she can in that situation. She decides to be kind and good because that is right, not because "oh if only I was better then maybe they will love me!"

It was also really well written. The writer didn't just explain Sara's faults --like not being able to tell her teacher she spoke fluent French--she SHOWED them. With Elsie, the author keeps going on about how Elsie had a temper, but you never really saw Elsie actually having a temper tantrum, except for when some injustice is done to her by her teacher, in which case she blames herself for not being enough of a doormat.

I would also like to note that it is an historical fact that Martha Finley never had any children, which explains the unrealistic portrayal of children in general in her work.

I know Elsie is extreme in and of herself, but setting aside th first two books in the series, is the historical context accurate for the day, or was it extreme even then?

[debrand]

Sugaree, I forgot all about Little Lord Fauntleroy. I know I read it at some point, but can't remember the details. I seem to recall that he was the perfectly spoiled and petted child, beloved of his mother but perhaps persecuted for being a bit of a mama's boy? I can't remember the details, and I suppose there is a good reason that that book hasn't remained as popular as Frances Hodgson Burnett's others.

I am also now questioning my childhood love of "The Little Princess." The heroine in that story was also persecuted but managed to win people over through her excessive goodness. I am trying to remember the details now, but I think the difference may be that the heroine showed a little more imagination, leadership and gumption than Elsie, who can't seem to do much but cry into her pillow and flagellate herself mentally.

Come to think of it, I wonder why "The Secret Garden" and "The Little Princess" aren't more popular with the fundie set.

The girl in The Secret Garden was far from perfect and wasn't always nice. The only reason a fundie would read The Secret Garden is because it is an older book.

[slickcat79]

I am also now questioning my childhood love of "The Little Princess." The heroine in that story was also persecuted but managed to win people over through her excessive goodness. I am trying to remember the details now, but I think the difference may be that the heroine showed a little more imagination, leadership and gumption than Elsie, who can't seem to do much but cry into her pillow and flagellate herself mentally.

I re-read A Little Princess a couple of weeks ago (it's available for free download on kindle), and...I still liked it. I'm not even sure why. Sara did have a lot of imagination and leadership skills, as well as tons of sympathy/empathy/compassion. She was spoiled but didn't act like it. All of it was very unrealistic. I've never read more than bits and pieces of Elsie, so I'm not sure what "trials" she has to go through, but Sara did have a lot of legitimately bad things happen to her. Maybe that makes her seem more sympathetic. And there was zero religious component to A Little Princess, which I appreciated.

[Cran]

You put me up to do some dreadful reading!

I am on the third book now, and I am revolted and disgusted! It started in the second book already, but for those who haven't read it I'll expand:

Her father was only eighteen when Elsie was born, and he has a friend the same age, Mr. Travilla, who showed much liking for Elsie from the start (she is eight when the first book begins), but with the end of the second book, when she is not much older, he starts to hint that he is sorry that he is so much older than her, and wished for her to be older or himself to be younger, clearly hinting, at least clearly to the reader, that he wants much more from her than childlike friendship. And all the while, he allows her to sit on his lap and give him kisses.

(They do marry later on, as wikipedia tells me.)

A CHILD OF TEN!!!!!!!

And this behavior increases as she gets older, currently, she is 15 or so.

Obviously, the author thought it acceptable for adults to have such feelings toward prepubescent girls. Some way to train up doormats! *barf*

[Bookworm]

I love Sara in The Little Princess! She is such a cool person and the story is so imaginative that I still reread it sometimes. Of course, I may be biased, since my mom read it to me when I was really young and I was shocked when I cried over her tragedy. I had never cried over a book character before and didn't know it was possible. Anyway, I never really thought about there being no religious message in the book but now I realize that's true. Oh, and the family across the square is totally how big families SHOULD be done!

[GenerationCedarchip]

And for our reading pleasure, VF is now running a special on the Elsie Dimwit books. I don't know how I got on their mailing list, but sometimes it's good for a chuckle/shudder/etc...

[Hane]

And for our reading pleasure, VF is now running a special on the Elsie Dimwit books. I don't know how I got on their mailing list, but sometimes it's good for a chuckle/shudder/etc...

They're available for free on Kindle, and I gather they're well worth the money. ;)

ETA I just read the first chapter, and the style and characterization are so extreme you'd swear it was a satire. One can see its influence in Sarah Maxwell's Moody stories.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am up to chapter 8 and I'm becoming slightly obsessed. How many times can this little girl be unjustly punished, cry her heart out, and beg for little scraps of affection from her father?

I think the notion of a grown up man waiting for a sweet little girl to grow up so he could marry her was something of a trope in Victorian fiction. Of course, now I can't seem to think of any other examples. I do think something of this sort occurred in one of L.M. Montgomery's books -- maybe the Emily of New Moon series?

[Hane]

I am up to chapter 8 and I'm becoming slightly obsessed. How many times can this little girl be unjustly punished, cry her heart out, and beg for little scraps of affection from her father?

I think the notion of a grown up man waiting for a sweet little girl to grow up so he could marry her was something of a trope in Victorian fiction. Of course, now I can't seem to think of any other examples. I do think something of this sort occurred in one of L.M. Montgomery's books -- maybe the Emily of New Moon series?

Doomed Harlot, I can't remember it in any of Montgomery's books offhand, but it was hinted at quite strongly in Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm, in Rebecca's relationship with Mr. "Aladdin."

I'm up to chapter 4 and my morbid curiosity is taking over. Actually, it's a pretty quick read if you skim over the slabs of preaching that take up about half of each page. This book makes Little Women and Anne of Green Gables read like bodice-rippers in comparison.

[tabitha2]

I think the notion of a grown up man waiting for a sweet little girl to grow up so he could marry her was something of a trope.

If you think that is squicky,Read the Tale of Genji.The title character about 2O at the time becomes fixated on a small child because she looks exactly like his stepmother whom he is love with but of course can't have.He abducts her from her grandmother to turn her into his perfect women.