Question for the historians re: Elsie Dinsmore

[Joykins]

I did a quick search and found this biography of Martha Finley.

http://readseries.com/auth-dm/finley1.html

Not much is known about her, but I find her anti-Catholicism interesting given her Irish surname. And then in the bio, it says she even wrote under the name of Martha Farquharson, which is Gaelic for Finley. So I am wondering if her relatives were Irish Protestants who had problems with the Catholic powers-that-be back in the old country? Or was the Finley family Catholic at one time and Martha felt a need to distance herself from that faith?

Maybe it was Scottish, not Irish--very similar names/language.

[Trynn]

Was Rosie the one who saw Lulu kick the baby?

EVERYONE saw Lulu kick the baby. And the father felt it important to get the servant's opinions of what happened BEFORE he heard Lulu out. That was what really made me mad.

[Guest Anonymous]

Who I'd love to see get his hands (figuratively) on Elsie is the "Sassy Gay Friend". If nothing else, maybe he could break her of her crying habit.

[desertvixen]

Why couldn't Nancy Drew be moral? She cached the bad guys. Fundie may liek the fact she is a SAHD but not her individualism and she defies her father;s authority in some cases. The character changed over the years.

But there's no constantly beating people over the head with how good Nancy is and that's why everything good happens to her, and if bad things happen it's because you don't believe in God (the right God, the right way)! Plus, Nancy isn't (generally) preachy as all get out. There are references to going to church (in an assumed Protestant mainline congregation), but it's always a one-line thing.

And she does fun stuff! She doesn't check in with Dad every two seconds, and he doesn't expect her to. (The originals had some moments that were maybe a little too-close, but in the originals Nancy was also a 16 year old whose mother died at 10, not an 18 year old whose mother died at 3.)

Sorry, Nancy fangirl here.

[Hane]

Just finished Elsie's Widowhood, hoping that Daddy Dearest would kick the bucket before his pal, Elsie's husband. But, NO! Elsie's husband dies dramatically of a heart attack, and Daddy Dearest slides right in to take his place. It galls me how little "airplay" is given to Elsie's poor stepmother Rose, who seems to have some spunk (at one point, she tells off one of the family bitches).

I was kind of glad to see a bunch of the teens/young adults share a beach house for weeks without adult supervision, though nobody got remotely freaky.

[Hane]

Lulu is the only character that has any realistic flaws.

Yes. I don't tend to hate on goody-two-shoes characters as much as I should, but, when Lulu was introduced, I thought, "DAMN! Finally a character who acts like a real human being!"

Oops--gotta watch my language. In Elsieworld, "Heavens" and "By George" are considered swearing.

[Cran]

Have read up to the point where Lulu is made to ask forgiveness of Vi and her father shortly after their marriage (she's locked up in her room in the cottage at sea).

That is so boring! Just a repeat of the first book, Mr. Dinsmore believes Elsie to be bad-tempered while Lulu is bad-tempered (at least by the standards of her family), and Mr. Dinsmore is now called Captain Whatever. If things don't improve, I'll give up the Elsie-books, there's only so much I can take.

[Hane]

I went to amazon.com and took a flip through the Mission Hill Press "remakes" of the first several Elsie books. They're written in a style easier for 21st-century kids to comprehend (think the "American Girls" series), have forewords containing helpful lists of characters (some changed/renamed from the originals) and historical data, and have expunged that godawful slave dialect and, it seems, a good portion of the racism (Aunt Chloe is called a "nanny," for instance). The Jesusism is still there, but not layered on with a trowel on every page.

I'd rather see the originals die out than be replaced with more palatable versions. In some of the reviews, though, people go on about how AWFUL these are and how much BETTER the originals were.

I'm reminded of the teachable moments so many of us discuss regarding "controversial" books. I'd put these in the same category, and ask questions like these: "Why do you think the author portrays the black characters the way she does?" "How do you think it's possible for the Dinsmores and their friends to have such beautiful homes, wonderful meals, and fine clothes? Do you see them cooking, cleaning, or doing laundry?" "How do you feel about the way the author portrays the mothers in these stories?"

[NurseNell]

I bet Nancy Drew would absolutely blow the minds of young girls brought up in extreme patriarchy. On the one hand, Nancy Drew (at least the mid-20th century version of the series I grew up with) was a SAHD herself -- 18 years old, living at home, no apparent plans to leave or go to college, yet independent, wholly competent, adventurous, and determined. I outgrew Nancy pretty young, because the books really are a bit cartoonish, but in retrospect, I think ol' Nance had a significant influence on me, the kind of influence that Dougie would certainly look at with a jaundiced eye.

Nancy Drew would never appear on any fundie's reading list. She may have been a SAHD but she was independent and got herself in situations that no decent, God fearing girl would get into.

I loved Nancy Drew and credit those books with getting me started on true crime stories.

Nancy Drew was read by several generations of girls. My mother read them in the 1920's, I read them in the 1950's, my daughter in the 1980's. And in another year or so my grand daughter will be reading them.

What about the Box Car Kids? I loved those books in 2nd and 3rd grade. Would they be acceptable to fundies?

Nell

[Bookworm]

Nancy Drew would never appear on any fundie's reading list. She may have been a SAHD but she was independent and got herself in situations that no decent, God fearing girl would get into.

That reminds me of the last time I reread one of those books and I was like, Wow, the villains are so... TAME in these books! They throw her in a closet and leave her for someone to find while they escape with the loot, having told her all they plan to do. And these are supposed to be horrible, awful, hardened criminals in the mafia or something. It's sweet to read a book and remember being a naive little kid reading along *oh the SUSPENSE - dum-dum-dadum*

As for the Box car series, I remember them as being so utterly boring that yeah, they probably would be okay with most fundies.

[Guest Anonymous]

Just wanted to say, I got busy and thus escaped my temporary Elsie fixation but I am glad to get more of a sense of the series from the other commenters here.

The other thing about Nancy Drew is that you can always tell the villain right away because he or she usually has bad grammar or ill-fitting clothes -- a sure tip off (along with the swarthy complexion!)

Never read the Box car series, but I think the fundies might be okay with the Bobbsie Twins (even though that series was produced by the same syndicate as Nancy Drew). The Bobbsie Twins have pretty clear gender roles and Dad is definitely the head of the household.

[NurseNell]

As for the Box car series, I remember them as being so utterly boring that yeah, they probably would be okay with most fundies.

I loved the box car kids. I wanted to find an old box car and fix it up as a place to live when I didn't want to be at home.

Nell

[NurseNell]

Never read the Box car series, but I think the fundies might be okay with the Bobbsie Twins (even though that series was produced by the same syndicate as Nancy Drew). The Bobbsie Twins have pretty clear gender roles and Dad is definitely the head of the household.

Oh definitely, and the Dick, Jane, Sally books. In first grade I got to play Sally in a class play because I was the only one with a yellow teddy bear. I still have the teddy bear, he's 64 y.o., will be 65 on Christmas. He's in pretty bad shape but 20 years ago I was offered $500 for him but I wouldn't sell. He's a very rare teddy bear made in England.

What about Trixie Belden? She might be OK. Cherry Ames would not be OK because she went to nursing school, became a R.N., and we know that means she sees nekkid bodies so she's out on 2 accounts.

What was that book series boys read? Oh I know, the Hardy Boys. Would they be OK? Being a proper 1950's girl I never read them.

What about Zane Grey? Wasn't there some other series of wild west books?

A lot of fundies seem OK with Sherlock Holmes.

Nell

[Guest Anonymous]

I think the Hardy Boys would definitely be okay. Boys are allowed to have adventures. And I think they had a mother whose only interest was feeding them. I always found them dreadfully dull though, and I was turned off by the constant discussion of their "jalopy" because I couldn't figure out how to pronounce that word. (I still don't know actually.)

Trixie Belden is probably too spunky and independent.

[purpleeee]

Sherlock Holmes? He of the drug use and lack of religious fervor? I wonder why he passes. Maybe it is the manly friendships and hatred of women?!?

I also came here to add this: E. Nesbit's wonderful books (honestly, they are 100 years old and they stand up pretty darn well) make some funny comments about books that, if not Elsie books directly, sound pretty like them. Here are three that made me laugh.

From The Story of the Treasure Seekers (published 1899, towards end of Elsie's "reign"):

(Oswald is the narrator. He's probably about 13.)

Then she began to cry again. Oswald thumped her [on the back] again, because he knows how a good brother ought to behave, and said, 'Cheer up.' If we had been in a book Oswald would have embraced his little sister tenderly, and mingled his tears with hers.

From the Wouldbegoods (published 1901):

(Oswald wonders why Daisy is a goodytwoshoes.)

I talked to Albert's uncle about it one day... and he said it came from reading the wrong sort of books partly--she has read Ministering Children, and Anna Ross, or The Orphan of Waterloo, and Ready Work for Willing Hands, and Elsie, or Like a Little Candle, and even a horrid little blue book about the something or other of Little Sins. After this conversation Oswald took care she had plenty of the right sort of books to read, and he was surprised and pleased when she got up early one morning to finish Monte Cristo. Oswald felt that he was really being useful to a suffering fellow-creature when he gave Daisy books that were not all about being good.

(later in same book)

'Do you know a book called The Daisy Chain?'

We didn't.

'It's by Miss Charlotte M. Yonge,' Daisy interrupted, 'and it's about a family of poor motherless children who tried so hard to be good, and they were confirmed, and had a bazaar, and went to church at the Minster, and one of them got married and wore black watered silk and silver ornaments. So her baby died, and then she was sorry she had not been a good mother to it. And--' Here Dicky got up and said he'd got some snares to attend to, and he'd receive a report of the Council after it was over...

...When quiet was restored and Dicky had agreed to go through with the Council, Denny said-- 'The Daisy Chain is not a bit like that really. It's a ripping book. One of the boys dresses up like a lady and comes to call, and another tries to hit his little sister with a hoe. It's jolly fine, I tell you.'

[Bookworm]

I loved the box car kids. I wanted to find an old box car and fix it up as a place to live when I didn't want to be at home.

Nell

I think I was just too old when I first read them, but yeah I totally agree that the box car was very cool. And the kids were enterprising people and not crybabies at all, unlike Elsie, just I was a teen the first time I read them so I never got attached to the characters all that much.

Then she began to cry again. Oswald thumped her [on the back] again, because he knows how a good brother ought to behave, and said, 'Cheer up.' If we had been in a book Oswald would have embraced his little sister tenderly, and mingled his tears with hers.

LOL, was it in The Five Children and It that one of the brothers thumps Jane on the back and tells her to "be a man" when she's crying? I've only read 3 of Nesbitt's books, I think, I really have to get the others.

[Hane]

Edward Eager (whose funny, clever books I love) makes references to E. Nesbit in his stories. I've never gotten around to familiarizing myself with Nesbit--guess I should!

[Guest Anonymous]

I think the Hardy Boys would definitely be okay. Boys are allowed to have adventures. And I think they had a mother whose only interest was feeding them. I always found them dreadfully dull though, and I was turned off by the constant discussion of their "jalopy" because I couldn't figure out how to pronounce that word. (I still don't know actually.)

Trixie Belden is probably too spunky and independent.

Also, Trixie preferred jeans to dresses, and wore her hair short because she couldn't be bothered with fussing over it, or with primping in general.

[NurseNell]

I think I was just too old when I first read them, but yeah I totally agree that the box car was very cool. ................

LOL, was it in The Five Children

I read The Boxcar Kids in 2nd and 3rd grade, then started Nancy Drew and Trixie Belden in 4th grade.

By The Five Children do you mean The Five Little Peppers and how They Grew?

Nell

[Bookworm]

Actually no, although the Peppers book was one of the ones my mom read to us and thus I still love it madly. The one I referred to was one of Edith Nesbit's books and is really a clever, fun story. I constantly quote a line from it (or maybe from her other book about The Railway Children) - "How true, how like life." The original context is very snarky.

Hmm, I guess I am really living up to my name here, LOL.

[desertvixen]

but I think the fundies might be okay with the Bobbsie Twins (even though that series was produced by the same syndicate as Nancy Drew). The Bobbsie Twins have pretty clear gender roles and Dad is definitely the head of the household.

The originals (available on Kindle for free) would probably be a huge hit. They date from either 1904 or 1914 (I'm too lazy to go look this second) and even having read the edited lavendar spine ones, these were...eye-opening. Dinah is a straight-up mammy as opposed to the cook/housekeeper with, and yes, gender roles are strictly enforced.

What about Trixie Belden? She might be OK. Cherry Ames would not be OK because she went to nursing school, became a R.N., and we know that means she sees nekkid bodies so she's out on 2 accounts.

What was that book series boys read? Oh I know, the Hardy Boys. Would they be OK? Being a proper 1950's girl I never read them.

Trixie would not fly with her jeans, her short hair, getting into trouble, solving cases, being smarter than the boys, and in general disliking feminine chores. Cherry, again, with that whole job and being spunky and going places with no headship. Actually I love Cherry Ames - if you didn't know they reissued the entire series in nice hardcovers, which is when I met her and fell in love with them.

Hardy Boys, maybe, at least the originals.

[Trynn]

I'd rather see the originals die out than be replaced with more palatable versions. In some of the reviews, though, people go on about how AWFUL these are and how much BETTER the originals were.

I mostly hear the opposite, and I'm thinking, "the newer ones aren't really that much better!"

This is why I'm sorta glad the company went out of business, even though some of their other products were great quality. It's just not worth one day having my children pick up these books and try to emulate the characters, which is what I would've done, if I'd read them as a child. I'm really glad now that I didn't!

The Boxcar Children --loved it! Though after a while they changed authors or something and then the books went downhill. As an adult I notice this, but as a child It flew straight over my head.

[docmom]

I loved E. Nesbit (still do). If you haven't read her, do. The Would-be-Goods, Five Children and It, and the Story of the Amulet are her best (IMO). She led a really interestintg life- was a Fabian (British Socialist movement)- and the girls in her books were strong independent characters. I'm sure she's not on any Fundie book list, though.

I hated the Elsie books. Being the mother of 3 "woolly haired negroes" I just couldn't get past the racism (even allowing for the time, she was pretty bad). I've always loved one of my favourite characters from the Chalet School books of my youth describing Elsie as "an unsufferable little prig who got everything she deserved".

[emmiedahl]

Little Lord Fauntleroy is a good book, a classic, and he actually was not dressed 'sissy' for his time and station. IIRC it's about a little boy in the US with a single mother, and he inherits a title in Britain. He is sweet in a Sara Crewe/totally unrealistic way and wins everyone's hearts. I know that sounds boring, but it was a good book. Little Men and Bobbsey Twins both also have 'ideal boy' types.

[purpleeee]

for Bookworm

LOL, was it in The Five Children and It that one of the brothers thumps Jane on the back and tells her to "be a man" when she's crying? I've only read 3 of Nesbitt's books, I think, I really have to get the others.

Finally found it - it was Anthea :)

"Let her cry," said Robert desperately; "if she howls loud enough, someone may hear and come and let us out."

"And see the soda-water thing," said Anthea swiftly. "Robert, don't be a brute. Oh, Jane, do try to be a man! It's just the same for all of us."

Jane did try to "be a man" -- and reduced her howls to sniffs.

for Hane

Here - all the free E. Nesbit you could want! http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/we ... 01858-1924

for docmom

I loved E. Nesbit (still do). If you haven't read her, do. The Would-be-Goods, Five Children and It, and the Story of the Amulet are her best (IMO). She led a really interestintg life- was a Fabian (British Socialist movement)- and the girls in her books were strong independent characters. I'm sure she's not on any Fundie book list, though.

And she was in a polyamorous marriage too!

I'm not a historian or lit historian, but I wonder if there wasn't some sort of late Victorian backlash to Elsie and her (literary) spawn, even as the Bobbseys or whoever continued the trend. Besides Nesbit, another one I thought of is Stalky & Co., also published 1899. It's a very very dark school story by Kipling. The boys frequently mock an Elsie-for-boys book about someone called Eric, and even use its language and breathless horror of potential SINS to tie their teachers into knots panicking about there being an epidemic of immorality at the school (there wasn't, these boys just loved to tweak anyone the slightest bit gullible).