Question for the historians re: Elsie Dinsmore

[Cran]

You'll be disappointed.... there's nearly nothing about that in it apart from Elsie giving money out generously, and the negroes being payed wages.

And you all: I never-ever make tYpso! That was all intentional with the "ick"! How dare you! :lol:

[Hane]

You'll be disappointed.... there's nearly nothing about that in it apart from Elsie giving money out generously, and the negroes being payed wages.

And you all: I never-ever make tYpso! That was all intentional with the "ick"! How dare you! :lol:

My nieter. :lol:

So, basically the author takes the easy way out by dodging that messy Reconstruction period. (The same lazy step was taken by the woman chosen by Margaret Mitchell's heirs to write "Scarlett," the "sequel" to "Gone With the Wind," which conveniently sends Scarlett off to Ireland for no conceivable reason.)

[Hane]

Oh, crap--she's on her freaking honeymoon now, and she can't shut her trap about how much she misses hugging and smooching with Daddy. I'm amazed her stepmother and her husband don't join forces and shoot the two of them.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Oh, crap--she's on her freaking honeymoon now, and she can't shut her trap about how much she misses hugging and smooching with Daddy. I'm amazed her stepmother and her husband don't join forces and shoot the two of them.

Geez. Who thinks like that on their honeymoon? Beside, her husband is old enough to be Daddy! :lol: Also, ick (sorry).

[rhianna]

So I started reading these books online after y'all discussed them . . . holy smokes what is with this girl?? How meek and annoying! I like how her grandpa is like, "yeah . . . . not too fond of her . . . why won't she stand up for herself??"

If I knew someone like that in real life I'd avoid them like the plague.

[AnnoDomini]

When I read Elsie, I was very young so it didn't occur to me to be annoyed by her. That said, Lulu was always my favourite because she was headstrong, sometimes about the right things.

[Hane]

So I started reading these books online after y'all discussed them . . . holy smokes what is with this girl?? How meek and annoying! I like how her grandpa is like, "yeah . . . . not too fond of her . . . why won't she stand up for herself??"

If I knew someone like that in real life I'd avoid them like the plague.

The thing is, though, Jane Eyre was in the same boat, and, when she stood up for herself, she got shipped to jail Lowood School.

There's no winning for the daughters of the Patriarchy.

And, as Doomed Harlot said upthread,

I also have to cut author Martha Finley some slack because I gotta believe she has some major Daddy issues. The book reads like the efforts of a victim trying to come to psychological terms with the abuse she suffered. I am guessing that Miss Finley suffered at the hands of an abusive father and identifies strongly with the Elsie character.

Part of what is difficult for childhood abuse victims is that abuse forces you to think either, "I must be really bad to deserve this," or "My parent is really bad and doesn't love me," both of which are intolerable emotions for a young child. Martha Finley reconciles these difficulties by creating a scenario in which the the Martha/Elsie character really is saintly and punished only unjustly, but at the same time IS actually loved by her abusive father, who is also supposed to be a basically good and just guy. There is surely some Stockholm Syndrome shit going on here.

Also, abused children really have little choice but to submit to their abuse. There is nothing you can do about it and that's part of the shame of the abuse. Miss Finley copes with this psychologically by turning Martha/Elsie's submission into a virtue which awes and influences those who know her.

[rhianna]

I have not finished book one but I'm pretty sure it can be summed up thusly:

"OMG WHY doesn't Papa LOVE ME???? Crycrycry"

[rhianna]

And I hate to agree with her father on anything . . .but she does cry waaay too much.

[sugaree]

The thing is, though, Jane Eyre was in the same boat, and, when she stood up for herself, she got shipped to jail Lowood School.

There's no winning for the daughters of the Patriarchy.

And, as Doomed Harlot said upthread,

See, this is why we today read Jane Eyre. Jane Eyre acted like a real person might in such circumstances. People alive today can relate to Jane.

[Cran]

Can't resist Elsie the trainwreck, and can't resist to post my findings here. I'm on "Elsie's Children" now, and her daughter Violet, 13 at this time, continues the anti-catholic sentiments of her mother quite well.

Two of her cousins have been sent to a convent to be educated, and one was converted there:

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/ ... &pageno=93

(Their talk about it starts at the bottom of the page and is continued over the next two or three short pages. The next chapter deals with Isadora, the cousin, and her efforts to bring Vi into the catholic church, and all pseudo-apologetic that are still thrown about today are used, faith vs. works, the hidden true church during the popish middle ages, Catholics are not allowed to read the bible, whore of Babylon etc. are used. Mindnumbing.)

"Vi had never seen such things, but she had heard of them and knew what

they signified. Glancing from the picture (of the Virgin and the child) to the crucifix, she started

back in horror, and without a word hastily retreated to the dressing-room,

where she dropped into a chair, pale, trembling and distressed."

This is as ridiculous as young Elsie's crying fits - you can disapprove of pictures and crucifixes as much as you like, but this reaction is just stupid. Things made from wood, paper and stone can't hurt you. Magic thinking much?

"Isa's perversion, Isa's secret, weighed heavily upon the heart and

conscience of poor Violet; the child had never been burdened with a secret

before."

She also talks to her grandfather about Isadoras attempts to convert her as "efforts to pervert her".

The sad thing is, more than 100 years have passed since those books were written, and the fundamentalist communities have not advanced in the slightest, but still use this kind of speech and the same "arguments".

[bea]

I'm so glad that someone else is suffering the same pain.

I'm all the way onto Elsie at Nantucket - so far, other than the "OMG CATHOLICISM" book, my favorite (?!?!) is Elsie's New Relations, which I reviewed as follows on GoodReads:

The story has shifted from Elsie (and her everlasting beauty and purity and weirdly incestuous relationship with her Daddy) to Violet, Elsie's daughter. Violet has married a guy in the Navy who already has three kids, and the three kids (Lulu, Max, and poor sick Grace) come to live with Violet and her mother and siblings. The new kids have to learn how to be submissive to Big Daddy Dinsmore, Ever-Young-And-Beautiful Grandma Elsie, and Beautiful Patient Violet. They also have to learn how to love Jesus. This has taken most of the book, so far.

Also, sibling Edward is now married to Zoe, who is treated by everyone (including her husband) as a selfish idiot because she wasn't raised by in an authoritarian patriocentric household. She's FIFTEEN and married Edward because her dying father begged Edward to marry her so she wouldn't be destitute and wind up in the streets. Zoe is so selfish and self-centered that she wants her husband to pay attention to her and not fixate on his Mommy. Oh, that silly Zoe.

(Edit: The bits about Zoe and Edward's marriage are even harder for me to stomach than the bits about Elsie and her Daddy. Finley has a real fetish for youth - she keeps harping on Zoe's appearance and demeanor and the fact that she's YOUNG. Also, Elsie? Looks YOUNG. And Violet? YOUNG. Anyway, Zoe is impulsive and affectionate and acts in a way that's totally appropriate for someone who's 15 or 16. Edward, whose age is unclear, believes completely that his child-bride needs him to "teach" her everything. Spoiler: Zoe has to accept Edwards authority, of course, because he is older and wiser and also male. Mostly because he's male.)

This is book #9 out of #27. I think I might need an intervention, because I keep putting it down in disgust and then picking it right back up again. It's like watching a car crash. I can't wait to see what horrible, racist, sexist, Christianist nonsense Finley will come up with next. I think the bit about "Papists" a book or two back will be hard to beat.

[Hane]

"Vi had never seen such things, but she had heard of them and knew what

they signified. Glancing from the picture (of the Virgin and the child) to the crucifix, she started

back in horror, and without a word hastily retreated to the dressing-room,

where she dropped into a chair, pale, trembling and distressed."

You can disapprove of pictures and crucifixes as much as you like, but this reaction is just stupid. Things made from wood, paper and stone can't hurt you. Magic thinking much?

Ha! OT: This reminds me of the episode of "Big Love" in which Bill decides to send his and Nikki's oldest son to a Catholic school (for academic reasons and because it's so far out of town he can publicly show himself as the boy's real father). Nikki freaks out when she sees the statuary, crucifixes, etc., inside the Gothic-style church, and, when her son brings home rosary beads, she chucks them into the garbage as if they were contaminated.

Back on topic: Fundies of Elsie's time (and ours) DO believe that Jesus was born of Mary, and was crucified for our sins, right? So what's the BFD?

[tehgoobster]

I think that it's hilarious that we have sort of an Elsie Dinsmore book club thing going on here at FJ. I think I might just have to read the books myself now. :lol:

[buttercup]

I've read through a good chunk of them (I skipped some of the later ones, because they're thinly veiled discussions of US History with no plot. I think Martha got tired).

It really entertains me how as the book goes on, Martha gets even more black and white with her characters- either you're "good" and find Jesus, in which case you live in Elsie's circle and remain forever young and revel in her bountifulness, or you're EVIL and TERRIBLE things happen to you (Enna, Isadora's sister Ginny, etc).

Lulu is the only character that has any realistic flaws. Max sometimes, but less so as the books go on. I sort of think that Martha bought them in because she had to keep the stories interesting, but it's impossible that any of Perfect Elsie's children or grandchildren would ever need such correction.

[Trynn]

And once Lulu "turns good" the books stop getting interesting. I did read a few after that though. Adult Lulu and 16 year old Grace are so good, they have to ask their daddy to tell them what to wear. To the captain's credit, I think he does tell them to wear whatever they want as long as it is suitable for the occasion, but his daughter's persist, so he gives them an answer.

Lulu's age is not clear, but she is a good bit older than Grace, who is said to be 16. Holy cow if I, at 16 and older, had asked my dad to tell me what to wear, he would've looked at me like, "what are you, 5?"

And another time when Daddy Raymond wouldn't let Grace go boating with Lulu, because 16 year old Grace "isn't very strong, and needs me around to tell her what she can and can't do." Which Grace later repeats herself.

Captain Raymond is at least better than Horace Dimwit, but I still wanted to smack him, and everyone else who treated Lulu like scum, because she was the only realistic character before she "converted."

[buttercup]

Reformed Lulu is really no fun. And the "pleasure" she gets from submitting to her father.. oy. And poor Vi seems to have less than no personality.

Although it is interesting that youngest daughter of the fair Elsie, Rosie (can't tell your Elsies / Roses without a scorecard) gets a little bit of an attitude. I guess Martha needed someone besides Lulu to behave poorly for once.

[Hane]

(can't tell your Elsies / Roses without a scorecard)

So true! I haven't been so confused about who's who (scores of characters, and so many with the same or similar names) since a college course in Shakespeare's Contemporaries, in which every damn play seemed to have an Isabella and a Rodrigo.

After all the bizarre anti-Catholicism she spews, I was amazed to read (in Elsie's Children) about her fairly moderate and measured stance on the Civil War, and her condemnation of the KKK.

She adheres to mid-19th-century truisms about health and diet (Alcott does the same thing, but far more moderately)--"hot bread is bad for children"--WTF?--but I was surprised to see her quoting from a medical pamphlet linking tobacco to cancer and other illnesses. WAY ahead of its time!

[Trynn]

Reformed Lulu is really no fun. And the "pleasure" she gets from submitting to her father.. oy. And poor Vi seems to have less than no personality.

Although it is interesting that youngest daughter of the fair Elsie, Rosie (can't tell your Elsies / Roses without a scorecard) gets a little bit of an attitude. I guess Martha needed someone besides Lulu to behave poorly for once.

I actually thought that Rosie was a despicable character --she was very stuck up, and thought that she and her family were better than others because they were christian and well behaved.

Yeah, I'm seriously considering drawing out a family tree as I read Elsie's books next time.

I was very surprised to read the anti-tobacco stuff. Had no idea it was around back then. Was quite eye opening.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I actually thought that Rosie was a despicable character --she was very stuck up, and thought that she and her family were better than others because they were christian and well behaved.

Yeah, I'm seriously considering drawing out a family tree as I read Elsie's books next time.

I was very surprised to read the anti-tobacco stuff. Had no idea it was around back then. Was quite eye opening.

Actually, anti-tobacco stuff has been around almost since the colonists started exporting it in the early 1600s. I remember reading pieces from 17th cent. England when I was in college about how tobacco should be shunned because it unbalanced the humors and fouled the air.

[buttercup]

Rosie is a brat, really. I especially disliked that she had the bratty dog that helped Lulu get in trouble for hurting her baby sister by accident (but all due the fault of her AWFUL TEMPER. How dare she feel angry when she's treated rudely/injustly!)

So far from what I can outline we have-

Elsies:

The Sainted Dead Teenage Mama Elsie Dinsmore

The Original Elsie Dinsmore Travilla

Elsie Travilla Leland- who married the artist dude

Elsie Alicia Leland - Daughter of E.T. Leland and Lester Leland

Elsie Raymond - the daughter of Violet and Captain Raymond

I think there are some more Elsies scampering about as well.

I did also like Zoe, at times. I know she and Lulu were supposed to be the poorly raised outsiders, but they're the only characters that ever seemed to act like real human beings. Walter Dinsmore was occaisionally human as well. Everyone else was either absurdly evil (Tom Jackson, Arthur Dinsmore, Enna, the other Dinsmore sister) or angelically good and stupefyingly boring.

I really went on a tear through these books when I was on vacation. I quite like Alcott and LMM, so I was intrigued by the Elsie ones.. and their free-ness made them all the better. But really, they're just hilariously awful. Out of a cast of dozens, there's two people that I ever found realistic. And like I said, some of the later published books are just set up like:

"Elsie (whichever Elsie, it doesn't even really matter), Violet, Captain Raymond and the children decided to sit on a rock.

"What shall we do, mama?" Violet asked, meekly turning her gaze to her mother, as even though she was a married woman, she still looked to her elders for guidance.

"My dear, let's let your husband decide." Elsie smiled beatifically at her son-in-law. "My grandchildren and I will be interested to hear whatever good things Captain Raymond has to say." It was still hard to picture Elsie as a grandmother, since she really looked no different than she did when she was sixteen, despite the fact that she really must be well into her sixties at this point. The Lord is the best moisturizer.

"Well, if it meets Mother Elsie's approval, I should like to read from this good history of the war of 1812." At Elsie's nod, Captain Raymond took out a slim volume.

[25 pages of restated possibly dubiously sourced history later]

Violet put down her sewing. "How wonderful, dear."

"Tell us more, Papa!" said Max/Lulu/Grace eagerly.

[50 more pages of restated history, with something thrown in about God]

"But then what happened, papa?" asked Max/Lulu/Grace. Elsie never asked these questions because SHE KNOWS EVERYTHING.

[20 more pages of history]

Elsie then packed up her sewing, and they retired home. Violet asked Lulu whether she would prefer lemon cake or chocolate for dessert. Lulu turned to Captain Raymond.

"Mama Vi, I would like it best if papa chose for me, for he would know more of what's wholesome for a girl than I would." Lulu said, smiling sweetly at her beloved father.

"Ah, Lulu. I know you're fond of chocolate, but I really do feel that fruit is more wholesome for children when the moon is in the house of Sagittarius." The Captain beamed back at Lulu, who felt a warm glow at how pleasing her submission was to her father and how comforting it was to be always guided by his superior wishes!

End of book."

Not a hard job for Ms. Finley.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I did a quick search and found this biography of Martha Finley.

http://readseries.com/auth-dm/finley1.html

Not much is known about her, but I find her anti-Catholicism interesting given her Irish surname. And then in the bio, it says she even wrote under the name of Martha Farquharson, which is Gaelic for Finley. So I am wondering if her relatives were Irish Protestants who had problems with the Catholic powers-that-be back in the old country? Or was the Finley family Catholic at one time and Martha felt a need to distance herself from that faith?

[AnnoDomini]

Was Rosie the one who saw Lulu kick the baby?

[bea]

It was still hard to picture Elsie as a grandmother, since she really looked no different than she did when she was sixteen, despite the fact that she really must be well into her sixties at this point. The Lord is the best moisturizer.

Priceless. The next time someone compliments me on my skin, I'm TOTALLY using that line.

[roddma]

If I recall, Nancy also had a seriously cool, banana-yellow convertible given to her by her father, and she frequently went off on jaunts without her father, or any other maie authority. When the first Nancy books were written (in the 1930s) is was consiered SOP for upper-middle-class girls like her to remain at home until marriage. It was a point of pride to this type of family because it was proof that the father could provide for his family without relying on a wife or daughter's income.

Why couldn't Nancy Drew be moral? She cached the bad guys. Fundie may liek the fact she is a SAHD but not her individualism and she defies her father;s authority in some cases. The character changed over the years.

I have begun reading Elsie Dinsmore on Kindle. Interesting lesson in history, but I can't imagine anyone wanting their child to be like her. She cries on every other page and frets over the least infraction. I wouldn't be surprised if the Duggar girls have read every book.