Question for the historians re: Elsie Dinsmore

[Hane]

It really entertains me how as the book goes on, Martha gets even more black and white with her characters- either you're "good" and find Jesus, in which case you live in Elsie's circle and remain forever young and revel in her bountifulness, or you're EVIL and TERRIBLE things happen to you (Enna, Isadora's sister Ginny, etc).

Lulu is the only character that has any realistic flaws. Max sometimes, but less so as the books go on. I sort of think that Martha bought them in because she had to keep the stories interesting, but it's impossible that any of Perfect Elsie's children or grandchildren would ever need such correction.

Except for that little twunt Rosie, who never gets her comeuppance.

I was sick inside, reading about the way Lulu was treated. The poor kid's mother was dead, her father went out to sea and left her with an abusive relative, and the Dinsmores expected her to cross their threshold in a state of perfection? Lulu shows normal kid behavior--long before the Accidental Baby-Kicking Incident--and she's threatened with banishment to boarding school? I was physically ill when her father pony-whipped her for trying to run away in its aftermath. The fundie post-whipping hugging was the coup de grace.

Oh, and there's the ever-popular Captain Raymond Swearing Cure: a week of solitary confinement and/or being flogged.

At least Creepy Grandpa Dinsmore never got around to flogging anyone--at least in the books I've read so far.

I have just found a bunch of FREE!!!!! E. Nesbit Kindle selections, so I am going to cleanse my palate with them.

[Trynn]

In the mildred series there is this one chatper --which is totally out of place in the book, literally, the book is about Mildred, and then suddenly we get...elsie, for no reason--where Elsie's little brother, Horace Jr, is asked to bring his sainted father the newspaper. Stubborn little brat refuses, so Mr. Dimwit Senior then proceeds to whip his son until little Horace Jr agrees to get Mr. Dimwit Senior the newspaper.

I felt physically ill. And there was no REASON to include it in the book! Was this a normal punishment in the 1800s, or was that extreme even for the time period?

(Oh, and Elsie tries to get between sainted Mr. Dimwit and poor little Horace, and then gets punished for interfering. Well, at least Elsie did something redeemable, for once.)

[Hane]

In the mildred series there is this one chatper --which is totally out of place in the book, literally, the book is about Mildred, and then suddenly we get...elsie, for no reason--where Elsie's little brother, Horace Jr, is asked to bring his sainted father the newspaper. Stubborn little brat refuses, so Mr. Dimwit Senior then proceeds to whip his son until little Horace Jr agrees to get Mr. Dimwit Senior the newspaper.

I felt physically ill. And there was no REASON to include it in the book! Was this a normal punishment in the 1800s, or was that extreme even for the time period?

(Oh, and Elsie tries to get between sainted Mr. Dimwit and poor little Horace, and then gets punished for interfering. Well, at least Elsie did something redeemable, for once.)

Contrast this with a scene in Little Men, in which Jo describes what happened to her when she was a child. She had run away, and, when her mother whipped her, Jo said, "You deserve to be whipped as much as I do because you've lost your temper." And her mother APOLOGIZED, and never resorted to corporal punishment again.

The Elsie books are tedious. The only plot device is Someone Does Something Wrong->Someone Gets His/Her Comeuppance and/or Wallows in Penitence. Over and over and over again.

Finley is a crappy writer--all "tell"; virtually no "show." She's constantly having people write or receive letters--but we never get to read the damn letters. She talks about the kids' playing games, or people having conversations, but never lets us in on what those games or conversations are. Frustrating. I am at a loss to determine why these books were so popular that Finley managed to publish 28 of them.

[Cran]

The treatment Zoe receives from her husband, Edward, Elsie's son, irks meeven more than Lulu's. She is young, but he treats her really like child, giving and hearing her lessons, berating her for not having learned them and being a general, assuming twit towards her and feeling oh so much better. This is even put down in words, when Edward gets into an argument with Zoe and later rumminates she might never be the companion he desires, never able to share his feelings and desires, which she obviously can't do now but only after she has been molded a la Dinsmore.

THAT is the model of a modern patriarch-huband indeed.

[Hane]

That, and the fact that the ONLY thing Edward can think of, when fifteen-year-old Zoe is left orphaned, destitute, and friendless, is to marry her. Because it would Look Bad if he were to accompany her unchaperoned to the States and get her into, say, a ladies' seminary until she actually GROWS UP!

[Trynn]

She talks about the kids' playing games, or people having conversations, but never lets us in on what those games or conversations are. Frustrating.

Actually that's not quite true. I can't remember which book it was exactly, but there is one book (Christmas With Grandma Elsie?) Where the characters do nothing BUT play games. And that is the entire plot. Of the entire book. Just, them playing games, mostly charades. For an entire freakin' book! It took me 10 minutes to read the stupid thing because I was too busy skimming looking for a plot...dumb dumb dumb dumb!

I am at a loss to determine why these books were so popular that Finley managed to publish 28 of them.

I have often wondered this one myself. Especially after everyone turned good and lived happily ever after. There really was no reason for her to continue the series beyond Lulu turning into a Dinsmore.

@Hane--OR Zoe's father could've asked that Edward look after Zoe as his child instead of as his wife. Even that would've made more sense! In the newer version of the books that is sort of what happens --Zoe is taken back to the states and placed under the guardianship of Grandpa Dinsmore.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I went to amazon.com and took a flip through the Mission Hill Press "remakes" of the first several Elsie books. They're written in a style easier for 21st-century kids to comprehend (think the "American Girls" series), have forewords containing helpful lists of characters (some changed/renamed from the originals) and historical data, and have expunged that godawful slave dialect and, it seems, a good portion of the racism (Aunt Chloe is called a "nanny," for instance). The Jesusism is still there, but not layered on with a trowel on every page.

I'd rather see the originals die out than be replaced with more palatable versions. In some of the reviews, though, people go on about how AWFUL these are and how much BETTER the originals were.

I'm reminded of the teachable moments so many of us discuss regarding "controversial" books. I'd put these in the same category, and ask questions like these: "Why do you think the author portrays the black characters the way she does?" "How do you think it's possible for the Dinsmores and their friends to have such beautiful homes, wonderful meals, and fine clothes? Do you see them cooking, cleaning, or doing laundry?" "How do you feel about the way the author portrays the mothers in these stories?"

I agree, it's better to use books like these as teachable moments or as examples of the attitudes/beliefs of the time period. Dumbing the books down or sugarcoating over the controversial parts doesn't teach children anything.

[desertvixen]

I agree, it's better to use books like these as teachable moments or as examples of the attitudes/beliefs of the time period. Dumbing the books down or sugarcoating over the controversial parts doesn't teach children anything.

I agree with this. I have a bunch of the reprinted Nancy Drew originals from Applewood Books (http://www.awb.com/catalog/default.php) - they have Judy Bolton as well! - and enjoyed the differences quite a bit.

[Hane]

Dammit. I just flipped through the last (chronologically) of the Elsie books available free online, and her mo-fo of a father still isn't dead.

And I don't get his being all palsy-walsy with HIS father--didn't the old SOB separate him from Sainted Dead Teen Mama Elsie and lie that she'd kicked the bucket long before she actually did?

[micatite]

But there's no constantly beating people over the head with how good Nancy is and that's why everything good happens to her, and if bad things happen it's because you don't believe in God (the right God, the right way)! Plus, Nancy isn't (generally) preachy as all get out. There are references to going to church (in an assumed Protestant mainline congregation), but it's always a one-line thing.

And she does fun stuff! She doesn't check in with Dad every two seconds, and he doesn't expect her to. (The originals had some moments that were maybe a little too-close, but in the originals Nancy was also a 16 year old whose mother died at 10, not an 18 year old whose mother died at 3.)

Sorry, Nancy fangirl here.

Nancy would never be fundie acceptable. She hangs out with a girl (with short hair) named GEORGE! ::clutches pearls::

[GiggleOfGirls]

Nancy would never be fundie acceptable. She hangs out with a girl (with short hair) named GEORGE! ::clutches pearls::

Ha! Seriously!

I know this is an old thread, but have read it all since seeing it bumped yesterday, and have to say that I adore E Nesbit's books. They were some of my favorites, along with LM Montgomery's, when I was a tween and I've enjoyed rereading them as my children have gotten to be old enough to read them.

I was pleasantly surprised a couple years ago when I did a little research on E Nesbit and found out about her Socialism and that's when I realized that her books had probably had more influence on me than my very Republican parents would have ever wanted. I doubt they had ever read her books and had limited me to only reading "older" books from before the second half of the 20th century, but apparently I found some really awesome influences to read despite those rules :lol: