Patriarchial Control

[Bretta]

hiya! This is my first thread here, and I've read FJ for a long, long time now so I hope *cross fingers* this is a valid topic.

Anyway, I was googling about the Rebelution forum when I came across this Theonomy blog post on a father's need to control/patrol his children's internet use, and how it is completely ridiculous that a conservative Christian forum (Rebelution)for teens needs cannot allow parents to scrutinize their children's blog content.

vonstakes.blogspot.com/2010/02/open-letter-to-rebelution-forum-it-is.html

(I hope the link's broken completely)

Needless to saw one post made me go like :angry-banghead: and wonder what Bible these people are reading. Sorry. I'm "atypical" (?) Christian and I just don't know where these ideas come from except from overzeal, insecurity, and a jumble of theonomist/patriarchal teachings.

So I thought this might be an interesting theological discussion. In the book of Proverbs and in the book of Ephesians (commonly cited verses relating to children's obedience), it is not "obey your father" it's "obey your parents". It's not "listen to your father" (Proverbs) it refers to both parents. Anyway, though there is of course gender bias in the Bible that cannot denied, it certainly is not what patriarchists make it out to be, in my opinion.

The commonly cited verse is from Proverbs - "Train up your child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it". Again, to me, the commonsense reading of that is that if you start kids out in the right direction they'll continue in that direction on their own. It is after all just a proverb - next to ones that say bribery creates goodwill and that too much honey makes you vomit. After all, isn't the goal of parenting to make children independent adults, who are able to be good people and live responsible lives on their own without you? How can that possibly come about it you treat like children and control their every move? How will they possibly know how to "walk in the way they should go?" if you blindfold and lead them by a short leash? I don't see how they can justify (other than obscure and indirect Mosaic references) parents having overzealous control over each and every thought, post, and private message. If they can't trust their children, there are some serious control issues going on. If what they believe is so true, why do they need to enforce it by "force"?

According to the author, "privacy" is a false doctrine (?) as well.

[Howl]

Well, this is Vaughn Ohlman. The very idea that he can't get his nose totally into someone's business (especially his own daughters) is anathema to him. I totally get the point of Rebelution, even though by contemporary standards, having your same sex parent (only mom can see her daughter's posts and only the dad can see his son's posts) looking at all your posts is not very, well, revolutionary.

Patriarchy is god's gift to controlling men and these types of guys honestly believe they should have control over everything, because that is the job god gave them to do.

What sane person would believe that no one should have a private mental and emotional life? It is simply a way to suffocate your children and stunt them in every way possible, because in patriarchy control is paramount and growing emotionally and becoming an independent person is not even on the radar.

Vaughn Olhman is a guy who also believes that courtship is too.....something, and that betrothal is the way to go. He's also into young marriage.

[nolongerIFBx]

hiya! This is my first thread here, and I've read FJ for a long, long time now so I hope *cross fingers* this is a valid topic.

Anyway, I was googling about the Rebelution forum when I came across this Theonomy blog post on a father's need to control/patrol his children's internet use, and how it is completely ridiculous that a conservative Christian forum (Rebelution)for teens needs cannot allow parents to scrutinize their children's blog content.

vonstakes.blogspot.com/2010/02/open-letter-to-rebelution-forum-it-is.html

(I hope the link's broken completely)

Needless to saw one post made me go like :angry-banghead: and wonder what Bible these people are reading. Sorry. I'm "atypical" (?) Christian and I just don't know where these ideas come from except from overzeal, insecurity, and a jumble of theonomist/patriarchal teachings.

So I thought this might be an interesting theological discussion. In the book of Proverbs and in the book of Ephesians (commonly cited verses relating to children's obedience), it is not "obey your father" it's "obey your parents". It's not "listen to your father" (Proverbs) it refers to both parents. Anyway, though there is of course gender bias in the Bible that cannot denied, it certainly is not what patriarchists make it out to be, in my opinion.

The commonly cited verse is from Proverbs - "Train up your child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it". Again, to me, the commonsense reading of that is that if you start kids out in the right direction they'll continue in that direction on their own. It is after all just a proverb - next to ones that say bribery creates goodwill and that too much honey makes you vomit. After all, isn't the goal of parenting to make children independent adults, who are able to be good people and live responsible lives on their own without you? How can that possibly come about it you treat like children and control their every move? How will they possibly know how to "walk in the way they should go?" if you blindfold and lead them by a short leash? I don't see how they can justify (other than obscure and indirect Mosaic references) parents having overzealous control over each and every thought, post, and private message. If they can't trust their children, there are some serious control issues going on. If what they believe is so true, why do they need to enforce it by "force"?

According to the author, "privacy" is a false doctrine (?) as well.

I wanted to flip and do cartwheels when the pastor of the church I attended who is preaching through Proverbs emphasized that a proverb is a wise saying--true most of the time but not 100% of the time.

I really feel that many fundies do fail in child rearing. They train their children to be good children. They fail to train them to be good adults. And I totally think that children should be able to be a child as long as they want to and that they don't necessarily need to be adults as soon as they think they should be (my dear barely a teenager nephew!). There's a line some where between not allowing them enough freedom to mature into an adult and not providing enough boundaries to ensure they do so.

[louisa05]

This point of his argument stood out to me:

A husband and wife are to be one flesh. Thus anything and everything accessible to the wife should be accessible to the husband, and vice versa. This needs to include the actual words as well as a general description.

Excuse me...that is not what "one flesh" means. My husband does not read everything I post online. He has never even seen my Facebook page--since he doesn't use Facebook. He does not have access to my email nor do I have access to his. He doesn't even have any idea how much money is in my checking account at any given time.

Each person in a marriage is a functioning adult and has the right to as much privacy as they choose.

On a side note...I don't think the rebolution site was telling him that they routinely give mothers access to daughters' postings or fathers to sons, but rather that the sections are gender segregated so that if a mother chooses to sign up, she would have access to the forum where her daughter may be posting, but a father would not.

[jerkit]

Only somewhat related: my pastor was talking about the “train up a child in the way he should go†thing this weekend. He was saying that the verse doesn’t mean what fundies tend to think it means. In the original language, it supposedly means “train up a child in the way he is bent†or rather, the way God made him. It means that each child is different and requires different training.

Obviously, I cannot independently verify this, so I’m not 100% sure it’s true.

[FundieFarmer]

Oh good grief. Far more damage was done to me for never having privacy from my parents than having even just the smallest bit ever could have.

Jerkit, that's the first time I've heard it presented that way, but it sure makes a lot more sense than the Fundie interpretation.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Jerkit that is true. The Hebrew phrase "chanoch le naar b'darco" which means train/educate the youth in HIS (own) way. In other words the approach should be suitable for that particular child and that particular stage.

[Rhetorica]

Well, this is Vaughn Ohlman. ...

Vaughn Olhman is a guy who also believes that courtship is too.....something, and that betrothal is the way to go. He's also into young marriage.

Tell me about it. Some years ago he showed up on a Mennonite forum I frequented, spewing his nonsense. According to him, young women who exercise the right to turn down father-approved marriage proposals are disobedient and rebellious. Also husbands and wives MUST have sex EVERY night in order to fulfill God's command to pro-create.

Someone else must be paying his bills because somehow he had time to write long treatises that earnest and naive forum participates would take oh, so seriously. It was nauseating.

[feministxtian]

Jerkit that is true. The Hebrew phrase "chanoch le naar b'darco" which means train/educate the youth in HIS (own) way. In other words the approach should be suitable for that particular child and that particular stage.

YES!!! I read a book a long time ago about raising kids and this particular proverb. The writer (I WISH I could remember the book) said that this particular proverb had something to do with a parent being observant enough to know and understand the child.

[FoxyMoxie]

Isn't the Bible verse about sparing the rod about a shepherd's rod and not any kind of weapon, eg in Psalm 23 'Your rod and staff comfort me'? So it's about lovingly shepherding your children, not hitting them.

My first thought upon seeing this thread was 'the Rebelution is still going??'. I found the Dixons and Feelin' Feminine through them in the 00s, probably 2006-2007?

[salex]

Isn't the Bible verse about sparing the rod about a shepherd's rod and not any kind of weapon, eg in Psalm 23 'Your rod and staff comfort me'? So it's about lovingly shepherding your children, not hitting them.

My first thought upon seeing this thread was 'the Rebelution is still going??'. I found the Dixons and Feelin' Feminine through them in the 00s, probably 2006-2007?

I think you are correct, but they back up the beating with a rod bit with a couple of verses from Proverbs 23

13Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

[LittleMy]

Tell me about it. Some years ago he showed up on a Mennonite forum I frequented, spewing his nonsense. According to him, young women who exercise the right to turn down father-approved marriage proposals are disobedient and rebellious. Also husbands and wives MUST have sex EVERY night in order to fulfill God's command to pro-create.

Someone else must be paying his bills because somehow he had time to write long treatises that earnest and naive forum participates would take oh, so seriously. It was nauseating.

Oh, Presuming that the forum is MennoDiscuss, I know who this guy is, he was and probably is amazingly self-confident and can outlast anyone in an online debate! He also, for some reason, made me feel very uneasy.

[Bretta]

Only somewhat related: my pastor was talking about the “train up a child in the way he should go†thing this weekend. He was saying that the verse doesn’t mean what fundies tend to think it means. In the original language, it supposedly means “train up a child in the way he is bent†or rather, the way God made him. It means that each child is different and requires

different training.

Obviously, I cannot independently verify this, so I’m not 100% sure it’s true.

I heard it too, some Orthodox Rabbi or Rebbetzin on a video somewhere (can't remember either). Can someone ask their rabbi or a Hebrew scholar?

That would be a LOT of sense, since fundies generally believe in molding children according to their own ideals rather than respecting the "God-given qualities" of children's personalities and interests...

[2xx1xy1JD]

I heard it too, some Orthodox Rabbi or Rebbetzin on a video somewhere (can't remember either). Can someone ask their rabbi or a Hebrew scholar?

That would be a LOT of sense, since fundies generally believe in molding children according to their own ideals rather than respecting the "God-given qualities" of children's personalities and interests...

Here are a couple of examples:

In general, it is vital to always remember the Torah teaching, Chanoch Le'Naar Al Pi Darko (Psalms), "Educate a child according to his way." What this means is that every child is an individual and will react and respond to different approaches. It is our job as parents to figure out what works best with our child and to implement that as much as possible in the different ways we interact and teach him or her. For example, some children are very visual and learn best with pictures. So for this child you want to have lots of charts or draw out responsibilities, rather than verbal instruction alone.

from www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_c ... Issues.htm (she mistakenly wrote Psalms instead of Proverbs, but that's the right quote)

"חנוך לנער על פי דרכוChanoch Lanaar al pi darko"- Shlomo Hamelech [King Solomon, considered the author of Proverbs by traditional sources] tells us that we should teach each child in his own way, a universal message that guided us over the generations. But how do we know what is "דרכו""- his way? And have we as a society really internalized this??

Intuitively, we all know that you can not fit a square peg in a round hole, no matter how hard you try. You can push and shove, turn it upside down and on the side, but unless you adapt either the hole or the peg it will not fit. What does this mean about our children and the educational system? Why do we seem to think that if only our kids would "try a little harder" they would succeed and fit the mold of the educational system?

from www.mercazrakefet.org/articlenav.php?id=190

[Bretta]

Here are a couple of examples:

from http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/ar ... Issues.htm (she mistakenly wrote Psalms instead of Proverbs, but that's the right quote)

from http://www.mercazrakefet.org/articlenav.php?id=190

:dance: Thank you!