Transgender teen girl from Christian family dies by suicide

[browncoatslytherin]

That strikes me as less "anti-otherkin" and more "Stop co-opting trans people."

exactly, i think that what most people were probably trying to convey in this thread

[Mama Mia]

1)There is no system of hate of cishet people on Tumblr. Cishet people will always be fine. Please stop

2)People have a lot of reasons for identifying as trans. Don't invalidate them. Gender is a mess. Gender doesn't make sense even if you're binary. Stop pretending like you understand things so much more than everyone else. Stop invalidating people's genders just because they don't identify as trans in the way you want them to. Like, honestly, you act like the binary concept of gender makes sense and it's only people who are doing it for themselves are fucked up? Binary gender is steeped in weirdness. - An agender person (is that acceptable to y'all? i don't know. i have no idea where gender becomes unacceptable to y'all, because it's not about what's actually okay, it's just about y'all being intolerant assholes)

3)Otherkin/etc. genders are concentrated on tumblr simple because... there's community that's formed there because there's a large trans community in general... not because it's cishets being oppressed so they pretend to be trans oh my god

*rubs temples because this shit is giving me a migraine*

People identifying as otherkin do not invalidate Leelah's death. The existence of trans people does not invalidate the existence of another kind of trans people. Leelah didn't kill herself because of how Otherkin are seen. Respectability politics are bullshit.

Leelah was brought to suicide by abusive parents. Our transmisogynistic culture is at fault for her suicide. She did not see value in her own life because she was a trans girl. That is what you should get out of this. Not this "fuck Otherkin" bullshit. That literally has nothing to do with this. You just wanted an excuse to post your hate. Take it elsewhere.

Good Lord, what a huge mess of concepts! I'm going to simplify life for you, okay? You're welcome.

* Unless someone is born with visibly different genitalia ( I'm leaving biologically intrsex people out of this discussion) --there are 2 biological sexes that someone can be assigned at birth. Male or Female. If someone is born with visibly male genitalia, and strongly believe, over the course of time, that they are actually female - or are born with obviously female genitalia and strongly believe, over the course of time, that they are actually male --- that person would fit the definition of transexual. Presumably this is due to some combination of physical factors present from birth ( genetic code, hormones, some other factor(s) that just haven't been identified yet). Transexual means that someone identifies as the opposite sex. Because words have meanings.

*If you do not feel you are transexual, and binary gender descriptions and expectations are problematic to you - there is a really easy way to deal with that, both on a personal level and on influencing society as a whole:

just dress, talk, engage in hobbies, develop a career and act however the hell you want. You can be a woman and be a lumberjack who likes to hunt. You can be a man and be a hairdresser who likes to crochet. You can fall into some extreme of gender stereotypes - or a mixed bag of traits - or not enjoy any of the interests that most people assign to masculine or feminine. So what? By developing new gender terminology labels all you are doing is creating new boxes - and reinforcing the boxes that are already there.

* if you really strongly feel their should be a third, non -male/female set of pronouns in general usage -- that's a linguistic and sociological issue. Every language changes over time, so hey, knock yourself out. Put it out there in everyday writing and it will spread quickly. And probably be much more practical in today's world anyway, regardless of gender identity issues, simply because people are often speaking to a wider, more Annonymous audience.

* I'm going to try to be really respectful to your otherkin belief system. But there are two really huge, obvious, issues with throwing the vast array of otherkin into the category of gender issues--

1) if someone thinks they are really some other species -- other species are also male or female. So you would be a male horse or a female horse. , so how is this some sort of gender identity issue?

2) how is otherkin related to gender identity in general? That makes no sense. It's like one of those tests where you identify what doesn't go in a group. Your choices are apple, orange, banana and sock. In that test it would be " sock" . In this case it would be, what doesn't belong - male, trans- male, female, trans-female, were-wolf. Get it?

*also, yes! her parents absolutely screwed up. But you can't assign 100% blame to them, that isn't fair or realistic. For one, they had already given her back her car and obviously she had access to the Internet and she said she had access to friends - and she also blamed various friends for not sticking by her - and the friend issues didn't even appear to have anything to do With her being trans ( or at least it didn't sound like it from her note). For another - she sounds extremely depressed - understandable - but some of her accusation s seem to be more the way everything seems hopeless when you are deeply depressed, but are likely not permanent issues. For example the issue with starting hormone therapy --she was 16 so puberty suppressors would likely be too late anyway -- and the amount of change that happened in the next 13 to 24 months ( depending on when she would turn 18)- may be unfortunate , but not likely be as dramatic as she feared. And certainly not likely to make it so no man would ever want her. I'm not saying her parents didn't contribute to the problem - obviously they did. And I'm not trying to take away anything from how tragic her suicide is. Or how horribly trans people are treated, but I think it's fair to say that there were other issues, and just being very young - that also played a role.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Good Lord, what a huge mess of concepts! I'm going to simplify life for you, okay? You're welcome.

* Unless someone is born with visibly different genitalia ( I'm leaving biologically intrsex people out of this discussion) --there are 2 biological sexes that someone can be assigned at birth. Male or Female. If someone is born with visibly male genitalia, and strongly believe, over the course of time, that they are actually female - or are born with obviously female genitalia and strongly believe, over the course of time, that they are actually male --- that person would fit the definition of transexual. Presumably this is due to some combination of physical factors present from birth ( genetic code, hormones, some other factor(s) that just haven't been identified yet). Transexual means that someone identifies as the opposite sex. Because words have meanings.

*If you do not feel you are transexual, and binary gender descriptions and expectations are problematic to you - there is a really easy way to deal with that, both on a personal level and on influencing society as a whole:

just dress, talk, engage in hobbies, develop a career and act however the hell you want. You can be a woman and be a lumberjack who likes to hunt. You can be a man and be a hairdresser who likes to crochet. You can fall into some extreme of gender stereotypes - or a mixed bag of traits - or not enjoy any of the interests that most people assign to masculine or feminine. So what? By developing new gender terminology labels all you are doing is creating new boxes - and reinforcing the boxes that are already there.

* if you really strongly feel their should be a third, non -male/female set of pronouns in general usage -- that's a linguistic and sociological issue. Every language changes over time, so hey, knock yourself out. Put it out there in everyday writing and it will spread quickly. And probably be much more practical in today's world anyway, regardless of gender identity issues, simply because people are often speaking to a wider, more Annonymous audience.

* I'm going to try to be really respectful to your otherkin belief system. But there are two really huge, obvious, issues with throwing the vast array of otherkin into the category of gender issues--

1) if someone thinks they are really some other species -- other species are also male or female. So you would be a male horse or a female horse. , so how is this some sort of gender identity issue?

2) how is otherkin related to gender identity in general? That makes no sense. It's like one of those tests where you identify what doesn't go in a group. Your choices are apple, orange, banana and sock. In that test it would be " sock" . In this case it would be, what doesn't belong - male, trans- male, female, trans-female, were-wolf. Get it?

*also, yes! her parents absolutely screwed up. But you can't assign 100% blame to them, that isn't fair or realistic. For one, they had already given her back her car and obviously she had access to the Internet and she said she had access to friends - and she also blamed various friends for not sticking by her - and the friend issues didn't even appear to have anything to do With her being trans ( or at least it didn't sound like it from her note). For another - she sounds extremely depressed - understandable - but some of her accusation s seem to be more the way everything seems hopeless when you are deeply depressed, but are likely not permanent issues. For example the issue with starting hormone therapy --she was 16 so puberty suppressors would likely be too late anyway -- and the amount of change that happened in the next 13 to 24 months ( depending on when she would turn 18)- may be unfortunate , but not likely be as dramatic as she feared. And certainly not likely to make it so no man would ever want her. I'm not saying her parents didn't contribute to the problem - obviously they did. And I'm not trying to take away anything from how tragic her suicide is. Or how horribly trans people are treated, but I think it's fair to say that there were other issues, and just being very young - that also played a role.

The friends issue was her parent's fault though. A very common form of emotional abuse is to isolate someone, break their relationships with other people. Even if her friends had accepted her back (which I'm sure many of them tried to do), it would have been different. When you're under the age of 24, even a month can see a huge amount of change emotionally, physically, and cognitively. Leelah was isolated for MONTHS. She was then allowed to reenter society, after a huge amount of abuse, and just reassume her old life. But, the problem was, her old life didn't exist. Her friends changed, she changed, and there was a lot of growth she missed out on.

Even without those changes, people who are isolated by abusive parents or partners are groomed such that when that isolation ends, he or she will still feel alone. I've been there twice. If the grooming was done "properly" and the bonds were broken enough, the victim will feel completely alone, even among friends. This causes the victim to further internalize the emotional abuse, and causes the victim to feel they're only choice if they want to keep living is to return to the abuser. That's why abuse is cyclical. Because you're given that "honeymoon period" which makes you start justifying your abuse.

Leelah left the isolation, found the bonds too broken, and felt the isolation extending outside of her parent's constraints. But, she was still under their influence. It was their abuse that broke those bonds, it was their abuse that groomed her to feel that isolation among others, and their abuse that gave her no feeling of hope. But that lack of hope didn't send her back to them, it drove her to suicide. So, yes, this blame rests entirely on her parents' shoulders and the shoulders of everyone who allowed her to be abused (like the father of a friend of hers who knew what was happening and didn't speak up until after she died, or the "therapists" who tried to "cure her" and likely instructed her parents on how to act).

As for the lack of information, I agree that whoever misinformed her has a lot to answer for, but those beliefs aren't uncommon. And, many in the trans community are seeking to make truthful information more easily accessible than the myths. Additionally, this belief was likely fueled by her own distress during puberty, which is completely normal for people with Gender Dysphoria. Had she been able to take hormone blockers when she first came out as trans to her parents (at the age of 14), that distress wouldn't have existed, or at least not to the same degree. There are people with Gender Dysphoria who are so distraught about their changes and their genitalia that they've been known to castrate themselves or otherwise mutilate their body.

Also, if her parents had her properly treated for Gender Dysphoria, first with hormone blockers and then allowing her to have hormone treatments when she was older, it could have saved her life. "Diagnosis and treatment are important. People with gender dysphoria have higher rates of mental health conditions. Some estimates say that 71% of people with gender dysphoria will have some other mental health diagnosis in their lifetime. That includes mood disorders, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, depression, substance abuse, eating disorders, and suicide attempts." So, again, her parents' refusal to properly address what she was going through, and their insistence on "praying it away" lead her to her death. Once again, making them responsible. If they had been responsible parents, talked to people who did more than quote the bible, and actually accepted their daughter (rather than force her to be their son), Leelah would still be alive today.

[Trynn]

I can KIND OF see not wanting to do hormone treatments, as the science isn't quite there yet. Here are other ways to support your child if you are scared of unknown side affects.

I do think 99% of the blame goes to the parents, however...

Leela was the one who chose to kill herself. She is the one responsible for killing herself. Don't get me wrong, I think her parents drove her to it and should be smacked upside the head, but in the end, Leelah killed Leelah, not her parents.

I don't think it's 100% fair to blame the parents, even though they contributed.

That said, I completely sympathize with Leelah. I don't feel completely male or female, but I feel strong enough that I have looked forward to a surgery since I was 14. And when I can afford if, I will have it. And my parents will react just like Leelah's.

And that's heartbreaking. Poor Leelah. I hope she rests in peace. If there is a heaven, I hope she's there making true friends and getting hugs from a god who says "I made you just the way you are and I love you."

And I hope the parents go to a special level of hell.

[Disengaged]

If you want to support your child but are concerned about medical intervention, there is a very obvious solution: call them by their new name and refer to them as their actual gender. The fact that Leelah's mother referred to her as 'my son' makes it obvious that long term effects of hormones were not the major concern here.

I can only speak from my own experience, but being referred to correctly is huge, enormous, life changing in the best way possible if you have supportive people around you. Transitioning is synonymous with the choice to keep living, so if Leelah felt that it was barred to her... I can understand on a very personal level why she did what she did.

[Vex]

1)There is no system of hate of cishet people on Tumblr. Cishet people will always be fine. Please stop

2)People have a lot of reasons for identifying as trans. Don't invalidate them. Gender is a mess. Gender doesn't make sense even if you're binary. Stop pretending like you understand things so much more than everyone else. Stop invalidating people's genders just because they don't identify as trans in the way you want them to. Like, honestly, you act like the binary concept of gender makes sense and it's only people who are doing it for themselves are fucked up? Binary gender is steeped in weirdness. - An agender person (is that acceptable to y'all? i don't know. i have no idea where gender becomes unacceptable to y'all, because it's not about what's actually okay, it's just about y'all being intolerant assholes)

3)Otherkin/etc. genders are concentrated on tumblr simple because... there's community that's formed there because there's a large trans community in general... not because it's cishets being oppressed so they pretend to be trans oh my god

*rubs temples because this shit is giving me a migraine*

People identifying as otherkin do not invalidate Leelah's death. The existence of trans people does not invalidate the existence of another kind of trans people. Leelah didn't kill herself because of how Otherkin are seen. Respectability politics are bullshit.

Leelah was brought to suicide by abusive parents. Our transmisogynistic culture is at fault for her suicide. She did not see value in her own life because she was a trans girl. That is what you should get out of this. Not this "fuck Otherkin" bullshit. That literally has nothing to do with this. You just wanted an excuse to post your hate. Take it elsewhere.

Okay, so this is pretty much exactly what i was talking about when I said Tumblr was an inhospitable environment.

Sorry, but there is constant hateful talk on Tumblr about cishet people, especially white, male, cis, hetero people. Hell, there is massive hate there for trans people who dare to say they believe their dysphoria is a medical anomaly. Please don't pretend 'die cisscum' and 'die truscum' isn't a major thing. That doesn't mean cishet people won't 'be fine', but it's not acceptable to hate on people for being born white, male, cis and hetero even if they are unfairly privileged. That's not their fault.

Nobody here is invalidating trans people. Gender is complicated. I absolutely believe that trans people are 100% valid. I believe people who feel that they are both genders or neither gender are 100% valid too. I understand that non-binary gender is a hard concept to deal with and many people struggle to understand their gender.

However, I will not acknowledge individual made-up pronouns. If they only apply to one person they're note even pronouns, they're proper nouns. If you want to be referred to with 'they' pronouns I will happily comply. If you ask me to use 'moon' pronouns (which is something I have seeen and they were totally serious) I will not comply because moonself is not a word or a gender.

I don't have an opinion on otherkin. I didn't mention otherkin at all.

I'm cis myself, so my opinions on trans issues really don't matter. I'm gay, so I understand discrimination and not being what's considered the norm, but I'm cis. You know whose opinions do matter, though? Actual trans people. When trans people say they feel like the teenagers who make up genders and pronouns hurt them, it matters. I might not be qualified to say whether someone is 'really' trans or not, but trans people are. If they feel like they're being hurt by this stuff then I'm going to listen.

[Trynn]

If you want to support your child but are concerned about medical intervention, there is a very obvious solution: call them by their new name and refer to them as their actual gender. The fact that Leelah's mother referred to her as 'my son' makes it obvious that long term effects of hormones were not the major concern here.

I can only speak from my own experience, but being referred to correctly is huge, enormous, life changing in the best way possible if you have supportive people around you. Transitioning is synonymous with the choice to keep living, so if Leelah felt that it was barred to her... I can understand on a very personal level why she did what she did.

Right, and I'm not saying that those non medical ways (ie names and pronouns) can't still be used, just acknowledging that some parents' reservations with hormones might have more to do with that than trans phobia issues.

All that aside... I would sacrifice my right arm to have had a mother willing to give me puberty blockers, or even birth control for he horrific cramps painkiller wouldn't touch.

Even if she'd only delayed puberty till 13 ish (9 is way too your, or should be, IMO) I would happily live without my right arm.

So I can understand, kind of but not fully, both sides.

Except not using proper names and pronouns. That's something is be completely comfortable with, and what I think should have happened in this case.

[Mama Mia]

I can KIND OF see not wanting to do hormone treatments, as the science isn't quite there yet. Here are other ways to support your child if you are scared of unknown side affects.

I do think 99% of the blame goes to the parents, however...

Leela was the one who chose to kill herself. She is the one responsible for killing herself. Don't get me wrong, I think her parents drove her to it and should be smacked upside the head, but in the end, Leelah killed Leelah, not her parents.

I don't think it's 100% fair to blame the parents, even though they contributed.

That said, I completely sympathize with Leelah. I don't feel completely male or female, but I feel strong enough that I have looked forward to a surgery since I was 14. And when I can afford if, I will have it. And my parents will react just like Leelah's.

And that's heartbreaking. Poor Leelah. I hope she rests in peace. If there is a heaven, I hope she's there making true friends and getting hugs from a god who says "I made you just the way you are and I love you."

And I hope the parents go to a special level of hell.

Just curious, and of course you don't have to answer, but what sort of surgery applies if you don't feel completely male or female?

[Disengaged]

Trynn - I think we're in agreement. I'm very early in the whole process, and the amount of medical intervention in my future is incredibly daunting. I can only imagine being a parent and researching what is coming down the pipe for you child, it would be terrifying!

It's just that this has nothing to do with Leelah's situation. I'd be surprised if her parents gave any thought to hormones or surgery beyond "NOT GONNA HAPPEN". From the little I read on her tumblr I know she looked into her options, but realizing she would not have support in any of it must have been horrible.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your own surgery, and anything else that makes you more comfortable with yourself!

[Trynn]

Just curious, and of course you don't have to answer, but what sort of surgery applies if you don't feel completely male or female?

I'd rather not specify, actually.

And yeah, I completely agree that "never gonna happen" is a lot different from "let's sit down and talk about my concerns." Leelah's parents did her a complete disservice.

[Mama Mia]

The friends issue was her parent's fault though. A very common form of emotional abuse is to isolate someone, break their relationships with other people. Even if her friends had accepted her back (which I'm sure many of them tried to do), it would have been different. When you're under the age of 24, even a month can see a huge amount of change emotionally, physically, and cognitively. Leelah was isolated for MONTHS. She was then allowed to reenter society, after a huge amount of abuse, and just reassume her old life. But, the problem was, her old life didn't exist. Her friends changed, she changed, and there was a lot of growth she missed out on.

Even without those changes, people who are isolated by abusive parents or partners are groomed such that when that isolation ends, he or she will still feel alone. I've been there twice. If the grooming was done "properly" and the bonds were broken enough, the victim will feel completely alone, even among friends. This causes the victim to further internalize the emotional abuse, and causes the victim to feel they're only choice if they want to keep living is to return to the abuser. That's why abuse is cyclical. Because you're given that "honeymoon period" which makes you start justifying your abuse.

Leelah left the isolation, found the bonds too broken, and felt the isolation extending outside of her parent's constraints. But, she was still under their influence. It was their abuse that broke those bonds, it was their abuse that groomed her to feel that isolation among others, and their abuse that gave her no feeling of hope. But that lack of hope didn't send her back to them, it drove her to suicide. So, yes, this blame rests entirely on her parents' shoulders and the shoulders of everyone who allowed her to be abused (like the father of a friend of hers who knew what was happening and didn't speak up until after she died, or the "therapists" who tried to "cure her" and likely instructed her parents on how to act).

As for the lack of information, I agree that whoever misinformed her has a lot to answer for, but those beliefs aren't uncommon. And, many in the trans community are seeking to make truthful information more easily accessible than the myths. Additionally, this belief was likely fueled by her own distress during puberty, which is completely normal for people with Gender Dysphoria. Had she been able to take hormone blockers when she first came out as trans to her parents (at the age of 14), that distress wouldn't have existed, or at least not to the same degree. There are people with Gender Dysphoria who are so distraught about their changes and their genitalia that they've been known to castrate themselves or otherwise mutilate their body.

Also, if her parents had her properly treated for Gender Dysphoria, first with hormone blockers and then allowing her to have hormone treatments when she was older, it could have saved her life. "Diagnosis and treatment are important. People with gender dysphoria have higher rates of mental health conditions. Some estimates say that 71% of people with gender dysphoria will have some other mental health diagnosis in their lifetime. That includes mood disorders, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, depression, substance abuse, eating disorders, and suicide attempts." So, again, her parents' refusal to properly address what she was going through, and their insistence on "praying it away" lead her to her death. Once again, making them responsible. If they had been responsible parents, talked to people who did more than quote the bible, and actually accepted their daughter (rather than force her to be their son), Leelah would still be alive today.

I think it's very possible she would still be alive, and it agree her parents screwed up - majorly screwed up - but I think you're maybe missing some important info here.

* I understand about isolation and abuse and grooming. Been there, done that and have the tattered t-shirt. Mine was a physically and sexually abusive partner - from 14 to 17. I get the dynamics. Especially how overwhelming that is to a teen. And I'm not doubting that the way her parents treated her had a huge negative impact

-BUT- I looked back through her old reddit posts. There were some really sad posts about her parents, and how worried she was about affording to transition when she turned 18. There were also posts about how much fun she had going out with her friends shopping for women's clothing for the first time. There were posts about how supportive her gay friends were, and how close they all were. She also posted that she came out at work - so she had a job - and that people were very supportive there and how excited she was that people called her by her female name, used female pronouns etc.

* She was very active on a sub-reddit for MtF transsexuals in the process of transitioning. She got (and gave) lots of responses regarding starting hormones, effects, details like whether it was helpful to lose weight prior to starting to transition , photos judging whether someone could pass or not. Make up tips. And on and on. She had a lot of information, and a lot of supportive feedback regarding her situation and how she should be able to transition.

* She wasn't just being told to pray. She was also being prescribed anti-depressants. It doesn't sound, from her posts, like she was sent to any sort of reparative therapy. I definitely don't think her gender dysphoria was being addressed appropriately - but mostly she said that her depression was what wasn't "fixed" . I think people also forget/don't know that many anti-depressants can increase the risk of suicide, especially in teens.

* I understand that trans people have a much higher rate of diagnosed mental illness over the course of their life, and that can be directly attributed to the struggles and bullying and abuse and discrimination they face. But you can't attribute all mental health struggles trans people suffer to the experience of being transexual. The current estimate is that 43% of all people will have some sort of diagnosable mental health issue in their lifetime. I think in judging the parents actions it's also important to note that the DSM only changed last year from officially considering transexuality from being a problem that needed to be fixed.

* I think the parents should have done a lot more to actually support and understand their child. I am sure they will be beating themselves up over that for the rest of their lives -- but I also think that their daughter was, tragically, also suffering from the overwhelming sense of hopelessness and lack of perspective ( not their fault - they just haven't had enough life experience )common to teens, and possibly from a medication reaction.

[Four is Enough]

Someone asked a page or two back about what the parents' obligations are in a gender dysphoric situation of a fairly young child. Let's say a 9 year old for the sake of this discussion. As a parent, I've watched all of my kids grow up and go through puberty. None of them, thank God, have gender dysphoria, and I say this ONLY BECAUSE of the emotional trauma it inflicts on the entire family, but especially the one who holds it.

However. If my nine year old child stated that he or she felt a member of the opposite sex or somewhere along the spectrum, (trying hard to be inclusive here, but NOT be dismissive or unkind) I would be at a severe loss as how to proceed. I might go to the pediatrician and ask about my options, but I'm thinking that the run of the mill pediatrician would be as lost as I am. I might Google, but how long would it take before the word "dysphoria" popped up, and would I recognize it for a place to get information and resources?

My natural inclination, I must say, would be to talk to the child and try to ferret out just WHAT he/she meant when talking about this, and what he planned to do about it. Let's be clear, here. None of my former nine year olds have stuck to their plans to become Batman, to drive an ice cream truck, or to become Pope, as far as that goes. Just how much serious thought might have they given this entire gender situation? (Now, I must state here. Had the child been insisting on being called by a different name, or different pronouns, or wearing specific identifying clothing since toddlerhood, this conversation with a nine year old would be vastly different. Assume, right now, that with the beginnings of puberty have brought this conversation on, and it's a total surprise to me.)

But I would take the child even quasi-seriously at first. I would listen, and I would watch, and I would question, and I would wonder why. There would be my own parental "where did I go wrong?" session where I wondered what signals I sent to make the child not be sure of him/her self. Because that's what parents do. I would not rush off to give this 9-year-old child hormones to stop puberty because, "didn't become Batman", above. Not right away. (At 8, I myself refused to join Brownies because they did crafts and stuff. I wanted to be a boy and join Cub Scouts because they went camping and had that kind of fun. I remain female.. my parents didn't rush to change me, either.)

At some point, I would be researching a therapist specifically educated to speak to my child on this topic. Possibly because she continued to insist that she was a he; possibly because the bullying/pressure at school and church were increasing, and causing problems. And I would go with her. And the whole family would be exposed to the therapy, because if there's anything I've learned about people going through changes in life, it's that they affect everyone you live with, and they should have an opportunity to understand and discuss it.

If the conviction persisted, despite all the barriers my child faced, and the child aged, and still wanted hormonal therapy, then we would move forward with that. There would be therapy; there would be the assurance that my child actually did want this very life-changing thing... I mean, I tell my kids that tattoos are forever. How much moreso this!

I consider it my parental duty to make SURE that my child is sure of such a thing. So: I wouldn't rush to treat a nine year old, but I'd do my darndest to get to the bottom of what and why she was saying what she said. I would definitely support therapy, and work with the therapist's suggestions to best help my child progress as healthily as possible through adolescence. Ultimately, I'd call her by her chosen name, and use the proper pronouns. An 18 year old? I'd give more credence to what she said, I think. It would depend on the suddenness of the statement.

Ultimately, I would hope that my kids can say even (frightening and strange) things like this to me, and know they'll get a fair hearing. It is here that I think Leelah's parents failed her.

I would like to hear what other parents would do. I have been as honest as I can be about this, and I'd like to have a fair hearing, and I'd like to hear other responses.

[Trynn]

Anti Ds do not cause suicidal thoughts. A person would already have to have the inclination to suicide, and since the meds remove the lack of energy caused by depression, the victim is more likely to act out on said suicidal thoughts.

At least, that is how my psych doctor (the one who gives out pills, I can never keep psychologist and psychiatrist straight.) explained it to me.

[IronicallyMaeve]

Anti Ds do not cause suicidal thoughts. A person would already have to have the inclination to suicide, and since the meds remove the lack of energy caused by depression, the victim is more likely to act out on said suicidal thoughts.

At least, that is how my psych doctor (the one who gives out pills, I can never keep psychologist and psychiatrist straight.) explained it to me.

A psychiatrist is a medical doctor (MD or DO in America) with specific training in diagnosing and treating mental disorders. They can prescribe medication.

A psychologist is NOT a medical doctor, but has a doctoral degree (usually PhD or PsyD), and diagnoses and treats mental disorders. They also provide family, relationship, and individual counseling. While they should be well-versed in medications used to treat mental disorders, they cannot prescribe medication.

It isn't uncommon for a person to see a psychiatrist and a psychologist (or a therapist, who usually has a Master's degree) at the same time. They work together with the client and often their primary care provider to come up with a treatment plan.

So, um, can you tell I'm a psychology major?

[Mama Mia]

Anti Ds do not cause suicidal thoughts. A person would already have to have the inclination to suicide, and since the meds remove the lack of energy caused by depression, the victim is more likely to act out on said suicidal thoughts.

At least, that is how my psych doctor (the one who gives out pills, I can never keep psychologist and psychiatrist straight.) explained it to me.

My understanding, and I've done some reading on it ( due to side effects from another type of medication) -- is that they can also increase suicidal ideation. Not for everyone of course,and I'm certainly not anti-medication. In fact the increase in thoughts of suicide are listed as their own side effect, in addition to actual suicidal actions. It's enough a risk that theres a black box warning regarding using caution with the use of some antidepressants in teens and young adults.

It always surprises me that people dont generally consider the possibility of a medication reaction when someone commits suicide.

[Rachel333]

From what I understand, it's not entirely clear what the relationship is between suicidal thoughts and antidepressant use in teenagers. Some people think that the black box warnings do more harm than good and may be responsible for the rise in teen suicides.

It is definitely something to watch, though. I've even met a woman in her 50's who took a non-psychiatric medication and while on it, despite no history of mental illness, her mental state deteriorated rapidly until she attempted suicide. She found out later that one of the side effects of that medication was suicidal ideation.

[Mama Mia]

Four is enough, thank you for your thoughts. Im a parent and I'll share mine.

First, I think I have a big starting place advantage over Leelah's parents: I live in an incredibly accepting region, I don't have any trans family members -but do have relatives who have been openly gay for decades. I read on forums so have learned the terminology -words like "cis" for example, aren't part of everyday vocabulary.

If my child suddenly said they were trans I think my reaction would depend on age and the kids usual personality - one of my sons, at 14, if he said that I'd likely assume it was his obsession of the month. Another one I'd take much more seriously, because he was a more serious person in general.

I'd tLk to them about it and attend counseling to learn more ( with a younger child I would assume it was a phase unless it persisted for a long time, or was causing the kid distress). I dont think Id be comfortable with medical treatment until a teen had been expressing this for a couple years.

I'd always tell them I loved them no matter what, and wouldnt isolate them.

[chaotic life]

Leelah was on Prozac, a SSRI. The black box warning is wording pretty clearly "In short-term studies, antidepressants increased the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults (<24 years) taking antidepressants for major depressive disorders and other psychiatric illnesses"

The maximum daily dose is 20mg. Leelah was on 60mg. The medication absolutely could have caused suicidal thoughts and acts. I cannot speak for whomever the prescribing doctor was, but there were options better than just continuing to increasing the dose of Prozac to three times the recommended dose when it wasn't working.

I would no more say the management of her depression caused her suicide than I would say her parents are 100% culpable for her death, it certainly contributed to the problem.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I think it's very possible she would still be alive, and it agree her parents screwed up - majorly screwed up - but I think you're maybe missing some important info here.

* I understand about isolation and abuse and grooming. Been there, done that and have the tattered t-shirt. Mine was a physically and sexually abusive partner - from 14 to 17. I get the dynamics. Especially how overwhelming that is to a teen. And I'm not doubting that the way her parents treated her had a huge negative impact

-BUT- I looked back through her old reddit posts. There were some really sad posts about her parents, and how worried she was about affording to transition when she turned 18. There were also posts about how much fun she had going out with her friends shopping for women's clothing for the first time. There were posts about how supportive her gay friends were, and how close they all were. She also posted that she came out at work - so she had a job - and that people were very supportive there and how excited she was that people called her by her female name, used female pronouns etc.

* She was very active on a sub-reddit for MtF transsexuals in the process of transitioning. She got (and gave) lots of responses regarding starting hormones, effects, details like whether it was helpful to lose weight prior to starting to transition , photos judging whether someone could pass or not. Make up tips. And on and on. She had a lot of information, and a lot of supportive feedback regarding her situation and how she should be able to transition.

* She wasn't just being told to pray. She was also being prescribed anti-depressants. It doesn't sound, from her posts, like she was sent to any sort of reparative therapy. I definitely don't think her gender dysphoria was being addressed appropriately - but mostly she said that her depression was what wasn't "fixed" . I think people also forget/don't know that many anti-depressants can increase the risk of suicide, especially in teens.

* I understand that trans people have a much higher rate of diagnosed mental illness over the course of their life, and that can be directly attributed to the struggles and bullying and abuse and discrimination they face. But you can't attribute all mental health struggles trans people suffer to the experience of being transexual. The current estimate is that 43% of all people will have some sort of diagnosable mental health issue in their lifetime. I think in judging the parents actions it's also important to note that the DSM only changed last year from officially considering transexuality from being a problem that needed to be fixed.

* I think the parents should have done a lot more to actually support and understand their child. I am sure they will be beating themselves up over that for the rest of their lives -- but I also think that their daughter was, tragically, also suffering from the overwhelming sense of hopelessness and lack of perspective ( not their fault - they just haven't had enough life experience )common to teens, and possibly from a medication reaction.

maybesomeoneterrible.tumblr.com/post/106971322970/they-fucking-deleted-her-blog-its-fucking-gone

I'm sorry but you cannot convince me, with the posts she made, that her parents weren't at fault for what happened.

[Terrie]

Leelah was on Prozac, a SSRI. The black box warning is wording pretty clearly "In short-term studies, antidepressants increased the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults (<24 years) taking antidepressants for major depressive disorders and other psychiatric illnesses"

The maximum daily dose is 20mg. Leelah was on 60mg. The medication absolutely could have caused suicidal thoughts and acts. I cannot speak for whomever the prescribing doctor was, but there were options better than just continuing to increasing the dose of Prozac to three times the recommended dose when it wasn't working.

I would no more say the management of her depression caused her suicide than I would say her parents are 100% culpable for her death, it certainly contributed to the problem.

The maximum daily dose is certainly NOT 20 mg. I take it for OCD, and take 40 mg pills daily. Obviously, they wouldn't make 40 mg pills if the maximum dose was 20 mg. In fact, 60 mg, while at the high end, is within the normal range of a maintenance dose. You start with 20 mg as a low dose and ramp up in usually 10 mg amounts until your symptoms are managed. The maximum daily dosage is, I believe, 80 mg.

[chaotic life]

You are correct the maximum dosing is not 20. I should have checked that better. Maximum dosing is 90. However, continue to titrate one drug that is not having an impact and not looking at possible other options is not responsibly managing depression. I have PRN meds prescribed specifically for when teens have anxiety build up or emotional meltdowns that could lead down the path to suicidal threats. Most parents I know dealing with teens with mental health struggles do.

All that said, SSRI dosing for OCD is always higher than the dosing for treating depression.. The black box label on anti-depressants for adolescents is very real. And Prozac has settled lawsuits in the past over this very issue.

While there is no perfect science with mental health, some relief should be achieved for depression within six months. For Leelah to have received care that long with only one medication and no apparent relief is poor management. As a parent who has lived with a variety of mental health struggles amongst my teens for years, I would find that management completely unacceptable. Maybe her parents were doing the best they knew how, but coupled with the other things they did, it fits a persistent pattern of mishandling and mismanaging her that very likely made it all worse and not better.

[Mama Mia]

I think we need to remember that we only have tiny snippets of information regarding what medications she was on, how long she was taking them and what, if any, other medications had been tried.

And that study regarding increased suicide attempts following the black.box warning had some flaws - a primary one is that it happened to coincide with a huge surge in prescription drug abuse in general -oxycontin in particular. The study just looked for overdoses in teens, not whether they were deliberate.

And now I've fallen down the black hole of otherkin. Wow. I can not believe these people expect to be taken seriously. I could see if they were just doing it for fun, but seriously?

[chaotic life]

It is not one study but many studies, actually. As for snippets, I am basing my assessment upon what multiple sources have pulled up from Leelah's own words....which her parents have retained a lawyer to try to suppress based upon copyright laws.

[Majessasticpearls]

One thing that massively confused me when I dove into the non-binary gender community on Tumblr was that a mod was claiming that there is no such thing as a male body-biological sexes do not exist. I'm not the best as understanding gender's outside of male/female/agender though I am trying to educate myself,but I'm 99% if you were born with a penis,do not menstruate etc,then your biological sex was a man. While I think people generally understand the concept of trans(though they may believe it's wrong) such ones such as gender experience's off the spectrum,demi,neutral etc,are going to be very hard to wrap around people's minds.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

One thing that massively confused me when I dove into the non-binary gender community on Tumblr was that a mod was claiming that there is no such thing as a male body-biological sexes do not exist.

There's quite a crowd of people on Tumblr who like to trot out the existence of various disorders of sexual development (what are often termed "intersex" conditions, although with plenty of those conditions the sex is not remotely mysterious or considered indeterminate in any way, in 2015 with modern medicine) and use that as ammunition in an argument to say that humans are somehow not sexually dimorphic as other mammals are, and so yeah, sex is a social construct.

The posters don't claim to even have any of those conditions, but because somewhere out in the world people are born with 5ard syndrome or whatever, suddenly biological sex isn't real and so they're not biologically male, despite in some cases having fathered children with their own sperm, even. As you can imagine, this doesn't go over well in the intersex community.

The internet is a wide, wide space.