Transgender teen girl from Christian family dies by suicide

[eh02]

And even if it was a choice, it wouldn't stop anyone else living their lives. But I think the anti-gay crowd are well aware that your sexuality can't be chosen, and they're freaked out because they know that it could've easily been them at the receiving end of all that prejudice. That's probably why they're so militant.

I think it SHOULD be irrelevant if it's a choice or not, because what it really comes down to is that it's nobody else's business what you want to do with your life or how you identify unless you are hurting someone. But of course, both sexual preferences and gender are not choices. In an ideal world, everyone would love themselves how they are, but unfortunately some LGBTQ+ people are so utterly miserable that I think they would do ANYTHING to change themselves if they could. And as we know from failed, harmful "conversion" therapies, even wanting to change - really badly - doesn't mean you can change.

I think people get very deeply comfortable living in a very binary, black and white world. They want things to fit into a neat little system, and any deviation is deeply unsettling. That is why it is so important for trans people - and all different types of people - to have a voice and share their stories, IMO. Storytelling is powerful. It's a shame that we have to actively try to make people see someone who is slightly different as a human being at all, but unfortunately that's the world we live in. It makes me grateful for shows like Orange is the New Black that really try to represent all different types of people. It is powerful to see someone you identify with on TV when you are not used to it.

[Toothfairy]

I just don't understand how adults can tell kids not to bully each other but adults don't practice what they preach. And if god doesn't make any mistakes then clearly he created homosexuality & transgendered for a reason. Just like he created straight, black, Asian people

[moodygirl86]

I just don't understand how adults can tell kids not to bully each other but adults don't practice what they preach. And if god doesn't make any mistakes then clearly he created homosexuality & transgendered for a reason. Just like he created straight, black, Asian people

I love this post Toothfairy, particularly the first line. I remember my bully boss a few years ago was giving her kids' headteacher hell on the phone because one of her little darlings had been picked on, and although I felt sorry for her seven year-old who was innocent, she didn't seem to understand that the way she treated some of us (her staff) was exactly the same thing. (The bullying against her son was physical, and she was one of these people who think that it's not bullying if it's a) between adults and b) "just words" - which is bullshit).

But yes, this is one of the main reasons why I won't bring children into the world. I was brought up to treat people right and never judge others by outward appearance/skin colour/sexuality, yet the real world is hardly ever as fair as that. And however right I bring up a kid, my good work will all be undone at a stroke the minute they're fired from a job just for not "fitting in" or some other stupid reason, and then treated like shit because they've got to sign on through no fault of their own. I didn't choose to be here, but I'll put up a damn good fight now that I am.

[Mama Mia]

I think it SHOULD be irrelevant if it's a choice or not, because what it really comes down to is that it's nobody else's business what you want to do with your life or how you identify unless you are hurting someone. But of course, both sexual preferences and gender are not choices. In an ideal world, everyone would love themselves how they are, but unfortunately some LGBTQ+ people are so utterly miserable that I think they would do ANYTHING to change themselves if they could. And as we know from failed, harmful "conversion" therapies, even wanting to change - really badly - doesn't mean you can change.

I think people get very deeply comfortable living in a very binary, black and white world. They want things to fit into a neat little system, and any deviation is deeply unsettling. That is why it is so important for trans people - and all different types of people - to have a voice and share their stories, IMO. Storytelling is powerful. It's a shame that we have to actively try to make people see someone who is slightly different as a human being at all, but unfortunately that's the world we live in. It makes me grateful for shows like Orange is the New Black that really try to represent all different types of people. It is powerful to see someone you identify with on TV when you are not used to it.

This could be completely off-base, but my impression is that there are three basic categories of people who are anti LGBT. I don't think religion even plays a part for all of the people who fall into any of these categories.

At one extreme you have the hard-core, ugly, hate spewing types like Steve Anderson or Westboro "Church" or various thugs who beat up and bully LGBT kids on the street. They are filled with vile thoughts and really, really think that being LGBT is evil and/or disgusting and needs to be eradicated. I think most of these types tend to hate large groups of people in general. And tend to just be extremely judgmental, miserable people. I don't think anything is likely to change their views, because hate is their default mode.

At the other extreme I think you have a fairly large group of both religious and non-religious people who just haven't fully adjusted to the pretty gigantic shift in acceptance over the past 15 years. I think there is a big range of people who fall into this category. Mostly they are some degree of "uncomfortable" with the idea or images they see. I think this will pretty much disappear, or be hugely minimized, over the next generation. Just seeing how phenomenally quickly marriage equality has spread and is being accepted by the majority of people -- when it was only 15 years ago that you had Ellen come out on her show-- and it was seen as HUGE...I think that shows people are adaptable, given the chance. I think there will always be some degree of uncomfortableness with some folks. But not to the level where they are publicly vocal about it.

I think that people like Leelah's parents fall into the third category. I think these are the people who ( if religious) fall into the " love the sinner, hate the sin" range. They really believe it's either an actual choice, or even if it's influenced by biology/chemistry, it's something that can be overcome and changed. They also believe that popular culture is luring young people into a life they would have otherwise not chosen/resisted.

To me, (coming from doing a lot of work with people in recovery from substance abuse) their language and how they present their beliefs makes me think they see LGBT "issues" exactly like an addiction to drugs or alcohol. They think this " thing" has a grip on their kid, that their child will live a miserable life if they follow that path, and that they are doing what they are supposed to do as parents by trying to combat it. They will either eventually accept it, and their child, while still firmly believing they are making the wrong choices. Or will use increasingly desperate means to try to change them, and then go the " tough love" route and cut them out of their lives.

Really, if you substitute " heroin" and drug usage references for " transexual/ homosexual" and any related references in these kind of accounts, and it's pretty startling how similar the feelings and reactions are. That's why I do tend to have some sympathy for them, even if I think they are completely wrong. I think they really, truly do think they are fighting a battle to " save" their child from what they see as a harmful and destructive life path.

I really, really hope that as time goes on the families in this category will understand that it really isn't the same thing.

[lemonhead]

CNN has an article up now, pretty close to the top of the page: http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-t ... ?hpt=hp_t2

I think they were trying for a neutral tone, but really, the mother speaks for herself.

[Daenerys]

My heart breaks for poor Leelah for all the reasons everyone mentioned here, but also for the driver that hit her. Though they weren't at fault, that's something they'll be haunted by every day. Another life changed forever by the parents' hatred.

Sad all around.

There was a girl in my high school who lay down in front of a train at night to kill herself. The driver didn't even realise he'd hit a person, he thought it was probably a small animal, so there were no alerts and her remains weren't discovered until the next day. There were no procedures against him, he wasn't at fault at all, but he must be haunted by what happened.

[Vex]

I feel into an otherkin, transfat, and transethnic rabbit hole the other day.

It was... weird.

Tumblr is a hell of a drug. I can't believe transfat is a thing.

I also feel terrible for the driver. People who kill themselves are often unable to properly think through the consequences for the person who inadvertently kills or finds them, and that person is totally blameless but can't help carry it around with them. I hope the driver is getting help.

[Four is Enough]

I've been seeing a lot of FB posts with Leelah's suicide note, and others with a "remember Leelah" theme. Too bad we were not allowed to rally around her while she was still alive.

[Burris]

It's actually at the point where it is literally impossible to tell if someone is trolling or deadly serious. Spacegender is something I've seen people claim to be and have seen on the gender wiki (although it was eventually removed). The definition was something like 'A gender that can only be described as relating to space'. There is a website that lists all these utterly ridiculous made up genders with complete sincerity, I'll post it when I can remember it.

ETA: mogai-archive.tumblr.com/genders

Although the archive is laughing at the posts, all the screencaps are from people who are totally serious about their made-up genders.

It makes me furious because teens who are genuinely trans and in desperate need of support seek help from these people and are turned away because they're special enough.

It seems as if many of the gender terms coined for use on that page and elsewhere are variations on just a few main themes: A person identifies with the gender in which he or she was born, a person identifies with the "opposite" gender from which he or she was born, a person feels as if he or she has no static gender (and so several of the terms deal with the concept of...uh..."ungraspability").

I wonder how much gender fluidity, especially among girls and women, comes of being born into what I can only describe as a rape culture. (I don't necessarily mean this culture, although there certainly are elements in it that apologize for rape.)

A woman can be targeted for rape for acting stereotypically feminine, or for breaching the stereotype and doing something such as getting a divorce and excelling in business or in some other male-dominated field. A woman can be targeted for rape for "dressing up" or for "dressing down." Actually, there are no real "right answers" for people born with vaginas in a culture where rape is a customary weapon of terror, a tool for crushing resistance, a power trip, an expected spoil or war, and so on.

If a woman prefers other women sexually, someone, somewhere will feel justified in raping her to 'set her straight'; and if a woman prefers the company of men, then someone, somewhere will feel justified in raping her because she should apparently see it as no big deal/she was a whore anyway/she was out after the sun set/she was alone in an elevator/she dressed too provocatively/she 'hid her assets'...Because she was a she.

Identifying as something other than a girl or woman, even if one might be entirely comfortable with their birth gender, may seem the safest course to those too young or inexperienced to realise they could be targeted regardless of how they act or how they identify.

It's when people start talking about and identifying with gender ideas that bear no resemblance to the common understanding of gender that I become confused - as with these "otherkin" or "transfat" ideas, but especially when they become tied with gender and sexuality.

[Trynn]

I will never identify as transfat (that sounds like a type of fat found in French fries) but I've always kind if felt like I was both genders at once. I think that's a real thing but... Trans FAT?

(That said, except for a few things I don't really have a problem with female pronouns and identifying as female, just feel a need to write "more or less" when filling out paperwork.)

[fundiefun]

It said in her letter that her parents wouldnt give their consent or pay for her to start hormone therapy. I know one side effect of the hormones is that it can make you sterile (since I was involved in someone who was transitioning) I wonder if her parents didnt feel comfortable giving the okay for that at 16 versus letting her decide on her own when she is a legal adult. As a parent its like what do you do? Do you take that risk and trust their judgment or leave that door open for them when they turn 18?

[FakePigtails]

It said in her letter that her parents wouldnt give their consent or pay for her to start hormone therapy. I know one side effect of the hormones is that it can make you sterile (since I was involved in someone who was transitioning) I wonder if her parents didnt feel comfortable giving the okay for that at 16 versus letting her decide on her own when she is a legal adult. As a parent its like what do you do? Do you take that risk and trust their judgment or leave that door open for them when they turn 18?

Hormone therapy can also be used to halt puberty, which is what's done for younger trans kids and what I'm assuming would have done for Leelah until she was older. If the person ends up not transitioning, they stop the hormones and go through puberty as they would have originally. If they do transition they're no longer working against years of body changes due to puberty and mental health effects of being in a changing body they didn't want.

[Hane]

This sad story reminds me of the late Brandon Teena, the subject of the movie "Boys Don't Cry." Despite Brandon's having become an out transman, his mother insisted that he was just "passing as male" as a "defense mechanism," and had his gravestone engraved with his birth name and the inscription "daughter, sister, and friend."

[nachtmusik]

Knowing what persecution from family feels like, Leelah's story had me in tears. She is a perfect example of how ignorance can be taken too far, especially by the people who are supposed to be programmed to love us.

I understand her parents being confused about her situation, but the fact that they didn't even try to get it makes it worse. They blatantly ignored what was going on and made Leelah feel like life wasn't worth it. You'd think they'd feel some remorse, especially with the note left on her tumblr.

I just feel so sick for her and so disgusted with the people who should have been the first to help her and the most supportive.

Leelah, I've been there. I know what it's like to have parents disrespect you and your feelings. You'll live on and you'll be a beacon for not only transgenders, but all of the LGBT community and beyond.

[lawlifelgbt]

I also feel for Leelah here because, while I don't have gender dysphoria (so I'll never know how she really felt), I don't feel comfortable being very feminine. I don't wear skirts/dresses, even for interviews or court, though some old, conservative judges practically require it, prefer lying around in workout clothes or boxers rather than "girl" clothes on my own time, and want to minimize my chest, both for a smoother "look" under my suits and shirts, and for comfort as I'm a DD. I don't wear makeup, except eyeliner, and have short hair. I get stares when I suit up with a shirt and tie, and my parents always question why I don't look "feminine" enough.

I just see the reactions people have to my defying gender norms in these small ways, and I can't imagine how much worse it must be for someone who needs to change their entire gender, full stop.

[doggie]

Her mother said she was loved unconditionally but for the part her religion did not supported. Mom kind of missed what unconditional means. Unconditional love is not second to religious beliefs.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Hormone therapy can also be used to halt puberty, which is what's done for younger trans kids and what I'm assuming would have done for Leelah until she was older. If the person ends up not transitioning, they stop the hormones and go through puberty as they would have originally. If they do transition they're no longer working against years of body changes due to puberty and mental health effects of being in a changing body they didn't want.

One argument I read against giving trans kids puberty blockers is that many of them do outgrow their gender dysphoria once they hit puberty and their natural hormones kick in. It doesn't sound like Leelah was one of these kids, though.

I can see how it would be hard for parents to know what is the right thing to do for their child. Even the experts don't agree. The science just isn't all there yet. Given how many drugs have been proven harmful in recent years, I would not automatically trust anyone who says it's safe for kids to take puberty blockers or hormones, along with antidepressants, for years and years. But sending the kid to one of those Christian quack therapists is definitely not the answer!

[Ofglen]

1)There is no system of hate of cishet people on Tumblr. Cishet people will always be fine. Please stop

2)People have a lot of reasons for identifying as trans. Don't invalidate them. Gender is a mess. Gender doesn't make sense even if you're binary. Stop pretending like you understand things so much more than everyone else. Stop invalidating people's genders just because they don't identify as trans in the way you want them to. Like, honestly, you act like the binary concept of gender makes sense and it's only people who are doing it for themselves are fucked up? Binary gender is steeped in weirdness. - An agender person (is that acceptable to y'all? i don't know. i have no idea where gender becomes unacceptable to y'all, because it's not about what's actually okay, it's just about y'all being intolerant assholes)

3)Otherkin/etc. genders are concentrated on tumblr simple because... there's community that's formed there because there's a large trans community in general... not because it's cishets being oppressed so they pretend to be trans oh my god

*rubs temples because this shit is giving me a migraine*

People identifying as otherkin do not invalidate Leelah's death. The existence of trans people does not invalidate the existence of another kind of trans people. Leelah didn't kill herself because of how Otherkin are seen. Respectability politics are bullshit.

Leelah was brought to suicide by abusive parents. Our transmisogynistic culture is at fault for her suicide. She did not see value in her own life because she was a trans girl. That is what you should get out of this. Not this "fuck Otherkin" bullshit. That literally has nothing to do with this. You just wanted an excuse to post your hate. Take it elsewhere.

[fundiefun]

One argument I read against giving trans kids puberty blockers is that many of them do outgrow their gender dysphoria once they hit puberty and their natural hormones kick in. It doesn't sound like Leelah was one of these kids, though.

I can see how it would be hard for parents to know what is the right thing to do for their child. Even the experts don't agree. The science just isn't all there yet. Given how many drugs have been proven harmful in recent years, I would not automatically trust anyone who says it's safe for kids to take puberty blockers or hormones, along with antidepressants, for years and years. But sending the kid to one of those Christian quack therapists is definitely not the answer!

I saw a documentary about transgender children and the target age they start some of these kids on hormones is around 12 or 13 during puberty. I don't know if I would be comfortable allowing a child that young to take hormones either.

[apple1]

1)There is no system of hate of cishet people on Tumblr. Cishet people will always be fine. Please stop

2)People have a lot of reasons for identifying as trans. Don't invalidate them. Gender is a mess. Gender doesn't make sense even if you're binary. Stop pretending like you understand things so much more than everyone else. Stop invalidating people's genders just because they don't identify as trans in the way you want them to. Like, honestly, you act like the binary concept of gender makes sense and it's only people who are doing it for themselves are fucked up? Binary gender is steeped in weirdness. - An agender person (is that acceptable to y'all? i don't know. i have no idea where gender becomes unacceptable to y'all, because it's not about what's actually okay, it's just about y'all being intolerant assholes)

3)Otherkin/etc. genders are concentrated on tumblr simple because... there's community that's formed there because there's a large trans community in general... not because it's cishets being oppressed so they pretend to be trans oh my god

*rubs temples because this shit is giving me a migraine*

People identifying as otherkin do not invalidate Leelah's death. The existence of trans people does not invalidate the existence of another kind of trans people. Leelah didn't kill herself because of how Otherkin are seen. Respectability politics are bullshit.

Leelah was brought to suicide by abusive parents. Our transmisogynistic culture is at fault for her suicide. She did not see value in her own life because she was a trans girl. That is what you should get out of this. Not this "fuck Otherkin" bullshit. That literally has nothing to do with this. You just wanted an excuse to post your hate. Take it elsewhere.

Enough of the "y'all". I haven't even posted to this thread until now. FJ is not "y'all" - as I told you on another thread where you used that.

[chaotic life]

I don't think they start many kids on hormones at 12/13. It's my understanding that they use hormone blockers, which is different. It's the same techniques they use with precocious puberty to delay it, because it's not long term heathy to start puberty at 6-8 years or younger. The hormone blockers would merely prevent the trans child from going into puberty, not stimulate puberty to their identified gender.

I have heard of some parents moving to ask for doctors to start hormones and not merely block puberty, but the practice is still fairly controversial for the issue that these are minor children and there are HUGE ethics involved in anything seen as engaging in research with minor children.

Hormone blockers are not seen as experimental and research. It merely blocks the biological hormones. At any point you can remove the blockers and allow biology to take back over. But, giving hormones does something that would not happen biologically and some of if is irreversible. That falls under the ethics of minors as test subjects. Thus, most doctors will block hormones as puberty hits, but typically still require late teen or legal adulthood before actively transitioning for that reason.

This is a very new area though, as the trend for parents of transgendered children actively and proactively supporting them is becoming more socially acceptable. However, it still has to be weighed against ethics of research subjects, minors, and informed consent, which is questions the medical community is still trying to answer...and the federal government controls some aspects of as well.

[moodygirl86]

Enough of the "y'all". I haven't even posted to this thread until now. FJ is not "y'all" - as I told you on another thread where you used that.

That's right, Ofglen, we're not a homogenous hive vagina. If you've read the thread properly, you'll see a variety of us have posted with different opinions on this issue. It's called a DEBATE, and as for posting hate, nobody has been remotely hateful. Nor invalidated anything, or pretended to understand as you've accused us of. In fact, many of us have acknowledged what a complex issue this is. I think you're the one that needs to take your hate and anger elsewhere, which indeed you're free to do if you don't like a particular thread.

[Rachel333]

For what it's worth, Leelah herself complained about otherkin and how they make people take actual transgender people less seriously.

This image has been going around of someone "calling out" Leelah for being anti-otherkin, anti-divine (as in people who identify as deities), and ableist.

It looks like Leelah's tumblr is gone, but I found a few quotes from her about otherkin:

okay I’m sorry but I’m so totally and completely anti-otherkin. Feel free to send me an anon ask telling me why I shouldn’t be because this shit is making cis people lump us together and basically make our gender seem less valid and it pisses me the fuck off

No, society does lump trans people and otherkin together. I have heard “well if you’re a girl because you say you are then if I say I’m a squirrel does that make me a squirrel?†way too many times. Ever since people have become accepting of transgender people people have decided to come up with all these bullshit identities because they want to be a special little snowflake and it just ruins it for us transgender people who just want to be accepted into society.

Wow, this was worse than I thought. A lot of otherkin people literally believe they are divine gods. It’s like having a god complex but you openly identify as one

i cannot believe this bullshit lol

[browncoatslytherin]

For what it's worth, Leelah herself complained about otherkin and how they make people take actual transgender people less seriously.

This image has been going around of someone "calling out" Leelah for being anti-otherkin, anti-divine (as in people who identify as deities), and ableist.

It looks like Leelah's tumblr is gone, but I found a few quotes from her about otherkin:

i definitely see her point in that. it's one thing to be transgender and identify as something other than what you're physically born as, but when ridiculous things get batted around, it makes everything associated with trans look silly. and while there are teens and even adults going through questioning and dealing with issues regarding their bodies and identity, i do believe some are just so desperate to be different and special and a part of something that not everyone is that they create these little identities to satisfy that. i mean, i feel like a cat a lot of the time (okay, most of the time...i want to sleep a lot, i don't deal with bullshit, i have odd habits, i'm sometimes graceful and sometimes hilariously not, etc.) but i'm not going to say i'm transcat because of that. i do joke around about being "the cat god" but i'm not serious about it. and i think when some things done either as a joke or done to try to be special get put out there as serious, it only increases the struggles of people who DO truly have their own issues to work through. this actually came up on one of my trans friend's wall. he felt more than a little miffed because he felt that people weren't taking being trans seriously, and therefore that he wasn't serious. uh, he just had a double mastectomy done, and he's been doing hrt for a good while now (2 years, maybe? my memory is the suck :( ). he's pretty serious. now, obviously, he's pretty confident in who he is, but there are many more out there who are not as confident, and as i feel like i keep repeating, their struggles and questions are treated less seriously because of juvenile crap, and that's not okay.

[Terrie]

That strikes me as less "anti-otherkin" and more "Stop co-opting trans people."