Parents upset after CT schools cancel Halloween

[2xx1xy1JD]

Why is Halloween somehow favoring one religion over another? It's not religious at all, unless you count the Druids of old. I do not like the fact that some holidays are celebrated like CHristmas and ignoring ones like Diwali, but do not see how Halloween is included as a religious holiday. One thing I really like about it.

The origins are a mix of Pagan and Christian (see Kirk Cameron thread discussing this).

Modern American celebration of Halloween is not overtly religious, but does involve stories and symbols that reflect these religious origins.

Some religions do not permit followers to celebrate Halloween. It's not for a public institution to judge whether or not that objection is silly - the fact is, the objection exists. If a school goes ahead and celebrates Halloween despite the fact that they know that a child cannot participate due to religious reasons, they are marginalizing that child. After all, it would be pretty unacceptable to announce, "All kids of X religion, go party and have fun. All kids of Y religion, go home or go to a room by yourself and do math homework while the other kids party." In some cases, like with evolution or sex ed, religious objections are trumped by the fact that schools need to educate and some things are a basic part of the curriculum. Halloween, though, is just a fun activity.

[Brightonbelle]

The secular songs you mention. They're still religious. They're about a Christian religious holiday, and taking out god and Jesus doesn't change that.

I get what you're saying - but if a song about Santa is religious because it refers to a Christian religious holiday, then it follows that all Christmas songs, including ones about God/Jesus are inherently pagan because they refer to a pagan holiday that was usurped by a Christian one. What I'm saying is that we can take these arguments too far. I'm as atheist as they come but I can't see how (for example) Jingle Bells can be offensive to non-christians purely on the basis of it referring to what has become, for many, a secular holiday. If you're offended by Santa, fair enough. But I think there's a level of over thinking there that's unnecessary. And I say that as someone who really struggles not to over think.

For the record, I was worried about doing the Santa thing since it felt hypocritical of me to talk about Santa but to insist on God not being real. So I decided - if my kids ask me 'is Santa real?' My answer will be 'what do you think?'. And that's exactly what I'd say about God too.

[Feberin]

I appreciate the attempt to acknowledge that other religions exist.

That said, I still cringe a bit because:

1. Dreidel, Dreidel is a pretty awful sounding tune that should never be sung by anyone over age 5.

2. From a musical POV, there's a lot of really nice Xmas music. That makes Dreidel Dreidel sound even worse in comparison.

3. Imagine going on an exchange for a year with an Israeli school. Everyone spends a month totally focused on Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Sukkot and Simchat Torah. The teacher, desperately trying to be inclusive, says "Hey, you've got a holiday too! Let's do something for Columbus Day! And make sure to include a token recognition of Columbus Day every time we talk about our big holidays!" By the time December rolls around, nobody at the school is talking about holidays anymore.

Chanukkah is a minor holiday in Judaism. No time off work, no festive meal, just some candle-lighting and greasy snacks. We've got a ton of major holidays - Rosh Hashana (New Year), Yom Kippur (Atonment), Sukkot (Leaky Huts), Simchat Torah (Dancing with the Scrolls), Passover (Gluten-free Freedom) and Shavuot (10 Commandments and cheesecake). We've even got another minor holiday that's a lot more fun - Purim is all about feasting, lots of drinking, giving money to the poor, exchanging food gifts with friends and dressing up in costume. So no, December isn't a universal festive season.

In the public school district my kids will attend there is no school for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. There is also a strong push to close for Muslim Holy Days as well. And I understand that Chanukah has been built up only because of it's closeness on the calendar to Christmas but many Jewish families do celebrate it with a big meal and presents so whether it's religiously accurate for those kids it has taken on more significance in their family. Just like Christmas should probably be all about Jesus but most Christian kids think of the holiday as Santa Claus and gifts. Also I'm all for celebrating many different holidays during the school year since I personally love learning about other cultures and religions.

[BrownieMomma]

In the public school district my kids will attend there is no school for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. There is also a strong push to close for Muslim Holy Days as well. And I understand that Chanukah has been built up only because of it's closeness on the calendar to Christmas but many Jewish families do celebrate it with a big meal and presents so whether it's religiously accurate for those kids it has taken on more significance in their family. Just like Christmas should probably be all about Jesus but most Christian kids think of the holiday as Santa Claus and gifts. Also I'm all for celebrating many different holidays during the school year since I personally love learning about other cultures and religions.

I am just curious how that would work out. Would it be very many extra days off from the current school calendar.

Public schools here go 180 days. I can't recall how many holidays but I know it's not every federal holiday. To accommodate more holidays, I think they'd have to add a day to the school year for every added holiday, do away with an existing holiday, or perhaps curtail winter and spring breaks.

School holidays that were not work holidays were sometimes a real headache for me as a single working mom with young children. The afterschool care program did not take school students on holidays so usually I ended up taking that day off, cutting into my vacation time.

Taking off school for a bunch of holidays could be problematic for working parents who will not receive the day off at work, or will have to make alternate arrangements for care.

Maybe some kind of system where each students can have X amount of days excused from school? idk how that would affect funding tho. Maybe schools should choose their holidays based on majority of the local community - but then again, there are a lot of people who profess Christianity yet don't go to church don't actually practice. I'm sure this is true for other religions.

[shedemei]

I get what you're saying - but if a song about Santa is religious because it refers to a Christian religious holiday, then it follows that all Christmas songs, including ones about God/Jesus are inherently pagan because they refer to a pagan holiday that was usurped by a Christian one. What I'm saying is that we can take these arguments too far. I'm as atheist as they come but I can't see how (for example) Jingle Bells can be offensive to non-christians purely on the basis of it referring to what has become, for many, a secular holiday. If you're offended by Santa, fair enough. But I think there's a level of over thinking there that's unnecessary. And I say that as someone who really struggles not to over think.

For the record, I was worried about doing the Santa thing since it felt hypocritical of me to talk about Santa but to insist on God not being real. So I decided - if my kids ask me 'is Santa real?' My answer will be 'what do you think?'. And that's exactly what I'd say about God too.

Give me break. I am not over thinking this.

I am very aware of the pagan background of Christmas. SAINT Nicholas (Santa) is a religious figure. Would you have Santa without Christmas? No.

Go ask some religious non-Christians. And I don't mean Jews. Ask Muslims, Hindus, etc.

The insistence on making a christian holiday secular in the US so that Christians can celebrate it without feeling that they're trampling on others is astounding.

[shedemei]

I'm curious if you're all right if they do a Santa song if they also do songs from other cultures like Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I get what you're saying - but if a song about Santa is religious because it refers to a Christian religious holiday, then it follows that all Christmas songs, including ones about God/Jesus are inherently pagan because they refer to a pagan holiday that was usurped by a Christian one. What I'm saying is that we can take these arguments too far. I'm as atheist as they come but I can't see how (for example) Jingle Bells can be offensive to non-christians purely on the basis of it referring to what has become, for many, a secular holiday. If you're offended by Santa, fair enough. But I think there's a level of over thinking there that's unnecessary. And I say that as someone who really struggles not to over think.

For the record, I was worried about doing the Santa thing since it felt hypocritical of me to talk about Santa but to insist on God not being real. So I decided - if my kids ask me 'is Santa real?' My answer will be 'what do you think?'. And that's exactly what I'd say about God too.

Snow is not religious.

Some songs - like Jingle Bells and Winter Wonderland - are just about winter. They don't mention Christmas at all.

[Rebelwife]

As someone who grew up in an overwhelmingly Catholic/Protestant area as a kid, we did Christmas big in the school with a whole show. There were definitely some quite Christmas-y songs but not overtly religious. I remember reading "Are You There, God, It's Me, Margaret" in 4th grade and being puzzled that kids would sing the Dreidel song alongside Christmas-y tunes. Then I married a non-practicing Jew and it totally opened my eyes at how overt Christmas is and how it's getting worse. Every year my husband says he wishes there were somewhere he could go to get away from holiday tunes. My son and I both love holiday music but we promise to only listen to it from Thanksgiving to Christmas Day and then no more, and usually not in my husband's presence. As for schools, our local schools tried to have school on Good Friday once and while a lot of students were in class, there were so many teachers who called out they gave up after just one year.

I don't know why this post made me remember this, but last winter my then 14 year old daughter was bitching about the incessant, cheesy Christmas music in all the stores. (She has some pretty severe sensory issues, so it really gets to her anyway.) She then added that she also really didn't like it because they never play her favorite Christmas Carol..... "In the Bleak Midwinter."

I broke the news to her that I was pretty sure she was NEVER going to hear that one in Target. :lol: She is just the nerdiest kid ever, in so many ways.

/Anyway, sorry for the OT moment.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Nice music. I had to laugh a bit at the lyrics. "In the bleak midwinter" describes late December pretty well in Canada, and I imagine northern Europe is the same way. They got the appropriate cold and dreary vibe.

I have to assume, though, that whoever wrote that carol had never been to the Middle East. I've been in the general Bethlehem area in December. Snow is pretty rare, the ground isn't frozen, and a cardigan is fine to keep the chill away.

[i don't moan about Xmas music in stores, because it's a link to my past life when I - gasp! - sang Christmas carols with the glee club. Carols are totally absent from our home now, so the occasional piped music is how I get my fix.]

[Brightonbelle]

Give me break. I am not over thinking this.

I am very aware of the pagan background of Christmas. SAINT Nicholas (Santa) is a religious figure. Would you have Santa without Christmas? No.

Go ask some religious non-Christians. And I don't mean Jews. Ask Muslims, Hindus, etc.

The insistence on making a christian holiday secular in the US so that Christians can celebrate it without feeling that they're trampling on others is astounding.

Perhaps my viewpoint is different as I'm in the UK. I live in a hugely multicultural area and I do not know a single person who finds the celebration of Christmas offensive.

ETA: by multicultural I mean high numbers of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and Sikh people.

[Brightonbelle]

I'm curious if you're all right if they do a Santa song if they also do songs from other cultures like Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel?

It doesn't matter what I think. Ask some Jews about whether or not the ever-present dreidel song, which is for children about a very minor holiday, makes them feel better about singing Christian songs about Santa.

When schools celebrate Rosh Hashana, Pesach, or Sukkot in ways other than giving students off we'll talk. Same with Diwali, or Eid, etc.

[shedemei]

I think this comment from a former coworker sums up the US: "You're in OUR country, you have to celebrate OUR holidays."

[Brightonbelle]

Wow. I apologise for saying you were overthinking. Faced with that attitude I'd be arguing alongside you. Of course there are plenty of racist idiots over here, but in my experience (and my acquiantances) we tend to live and let live.

[Brightonbelle]

Are businesses shut over Christmas in the US? Quite a lot of shops stay open here in areas with more multicultural (particularly Muslim) populations.

[Feberin]

I am just curious how that would work out. Would it be very many extra days off from the current school calendar.

Public schools here go 180 days. I can't recall how many holidays but I know it's not every federal holiday. To accommodate more holidays, I think they'd have to add a day to the school year for every added holiday, do away with an existing holiday, or perhaps curtail winter and spring breaks.

School holidays that were not work holidays were sometimes a real headache for me as a single working mom with young children. The afterschool care program did not take school students on holidays so usually I ended up taking that day off, cutting into my vacation time.

Taking off school for a bunch of holidays could be problematic for working parents who will not receive the day off at work, or will have to make alternate arrangements for care.

Maybe some kind of system where each students can have X amount of days excused from school? idk how that would affect funding tho. Maybe schools should choose their holidays based on majority of the local community - but then again, there are a lot of people who profess Christianity yet don't go to church don't actually practice. I'm sure this is true for other religions.

They are required to have 180 days of school here too. I know my son's preschool offers a Day Off Camp on Jewish holidays and other days when public schools are closed. Of course that still involves the parent paying extra money. I know one county has shortened their Spring Break so it's not a full week just a few days. The county where I live has enough Jewish students that at some schools the majority of their students wouldn't be in attendance on Jewish holidays. They've been closing for them since like the 90s at least.

It doesn't matter what I think. Ask some Jews about whether or not the ever-present dreidel song, which is for children about a very minor holiday, makes them feel better about singing Christian songs about Santa.

When schools celebrate Rosh Hashana, Pesach, or Sukkot in ways other than giving students off we'll talk. Same with Diwali, or Eid, etc.

Next time I get a chance I will ask however the fact we were discussing it here made it an easier platform then calling up non-Christian but still religious friends to ask their opinions just because I was curious about it. And I did get several response here mostly about how much people hate that particular song. It's also purely for my own curiosity. I don't have anything to do with what songs are sung at any public school since I don't work at a school or have children who attend them. And I would really love if when my children attended public school they did more then just give them a day off but talked about the holidays in class.

Many businesses are either closed or not open a full day on Christmas.

[shedemei]

Are businesses shut over Christmas in the US? Quite a lot of shops stay open here in areas with more multicultural (particularly Muslim) populations.

Yeah, it's a federal holiday. If a business is open they have to pay non-salaried employees 1.5 their normal wage.

[RandomTrivia]

Are businesses shut over Christmas in the US? Quite a lot of shops stay open here in areas with more multicultural (particularly Muslim) populations.

A fair number of stores around here close on early on Christmas Eve and are closed Christmas Day, but that may be the only day they close all year. Some stores, grocery stores, restaurants, etc. may open later that afternoon, but don't quote me on that - we spend Christmas Day driving to my parents' house, so I don't keep up with what's open other than gas stations.

I can say that Christmas music on the radio starts popping up around Thanksgiving, one station goes 100% Christmas music around the day after Thanksgiving, and then at noon on Christmas day it stops dead. Which sucks for those of us who have to spread Christmas over two days because of family travel, because it seems less Christmassy without the music. The cold-turkey approach seems kind of abrupt, I need to taper off or something. :lol:

[myusername]

Yeah, it's a federal holiday. If a business is open they have to pay non-salaried employees 1.5 their normal wage.

This is my first FJ post, so forgive me if I cross a line.

But, I believe you are mistaken on this. Only certain government contractors are required to pay federal holiday pay. Any other employer in the US would just be required to pay the regular wages. If the hours put the employee into "overtime" (after 40 hours that week) then the 1.5 time would be paid. But, there is no law for requiring employers to pay 1.5x for working a holiday. Some employers may chose to do this as a benefit, but it is not required.

[shedemei]

This is my first FJ post, so forgive me if I cross a line.

But, I believe you are mistaken on this. Only certain government contractors are required to pay federal holiday pay. Any other employer in the US would just be required to pay the regular wages. If the hours put the employee into "overtime" (after 40 hours that week) then the 1.5 time would be paid. But, there is no law for requiring employers to pay 1.5x for working a holiday. Some employers may chose to do this as a benefit, but it is not required.

Welcome!

No line. :). You're right. I worked for almost a decade at a job where that was a requirement, and I assumed.

[Feberin]

I can say that Christmas music on the radio starts popping up around Thanksgiving, one station goes 100% Christmas music around the day after Thanksgiving, and then at noon on Christmas day it stops dead. Which sucks for those of us who have to spread Christmas over two days because of family travel, because it seems less Christmassy without the music. The cold-turkey approach seems kind of abrupt, I need to taper off or something. :lol:

There is a station near me that starts with Christmas music like the week before Christmas and continues until after New Years. I personally hate it :evil: . While I enjoy Christmas music while decorating the tree or on Christmas Eve/Day if it's normal songs they tend to play a lot of weird ones that I've never heard and over a month is just too much in my opinion. Also most stations from Thanksgiving to Christmas play at least some Christmas music. I tend to listen to audio books during this period to avoid it.

[myusername]

Welcome!

No line. :). You're right. I worked for almost a decade at a job where that was a requirement, and I assumed.

Thanks!

And FTR, I have had at least one child in public school for 20 years now, and never once have they allowed costumes at school for Halloween. They may get a treat from the teacher, but it was never a "party."

And I always felt bad for those poor teachers the next day, if Halloween was during the week. :)

[Coco]

I think this comment from a former coworker sums up the US: "You're in OUR country, you have to celebrate OUR holidays."

It's the beauty of the internet and modern sensitivity that we're even discussing this with a goal toward equality. Back in what the fundies see as the golden age of American (40's-60's) society would have had that inflexible attitude. Thankfully we're moving past that bigotry into more equality, even if it does make for some confusing schedules. I hope fundies never get powerful enough to once again force their narrow worldview on the rest of us.

[O Latin]

I know I'm pretty much in the minority of everyone on this, but I really don't like Halloween. I don't have any moral objections to it, there's just nothing about it that appeals to me. Even when I was a child of trick-or-treating age, having to come up with a costume and put it together and then traipse out into the cold to knock on neighbors' doors sounded more like a chore than a fun time. I get all kinds of shit from my friends and family for "hating" Halloween and not celebrating it. I'm also against school parties in general (although I don't have kids, so maybe I don't get a vote in that debate).

I'm curious about people who don't celebrate Christmas because I know lots of people who are atheist, agnostic, or members of a religion other than Christianity, and they all celebrate Christmas. The only people I've ever met who don't celebrate Christmas are JWs. I completely understand saying "I'm not a Christian so I don't celebrate Christmas," I've just never met anyone who does it. The U.S. is gradually becoming more secular, yet Christmas seems to get bigger every year. I could see it eventually evolving into a holiday that had religious origins but became completely secular, although I would love to see Christmas become simpler and less commercialized.

[Snarkle]

This is my first FJ post, so forgive me if I cross a line.

But, I believe you are mistaken on this. Only certain government contractors are required to pay federal holiday pay. Any other employer in the US would just be required to pay the regular wages. If the hours put the employee into "overtime" (after 40 hours that week) then the 1.5 time would be paid. But, there is no law for requiring employers to pay 1.5x for working a holiday. Some employers may chose to do this as a benefit, but it is not required.

In some states, retail (and some other) hourly workers are required to be paid time and a half on some federal holidays (like New Year's Day & Columbus Day), and in some states on all Sundays as well. It's also why retailers in some states cannot be open at all on Thanksgiving, despite the new trend to open early for Black Friday in the US. So your statement isn't crossing a line, but it is incorrect. There are exceptions (gas stations, convenience stores, florists, etc.), but on the whole there are laws restricting most retailers in some states. I for one support this because I think people should be able to have a couple of days a year to spend with their families - it's not like there aren't enough shopping days already (and I say this as someone who has worked in retail in the past).

[Snarkle]

It's the beauty of the internet and modern sensitivity that we're even discussing this with a goal toward equality. Back in what the fundies see as the golden age of American (40's-60's) society would have had that inflexible attitude. Thankfully we're moving past that bigotry into more equality, even if it does make for some confusing schedules. I hope fundies never get powerful enough to once again force their narrow worldview on the rest of us.

Amen to that, Coco!

And my son's high school in another town (and our resident school district) is closed for all Christian holidays, including Good Friday, and not for any others, as we live in a predominantly Catholic town. However, students who celebrate other holidays do take days off (Rosh Hashanah, Eid, etc.) as fully excused days. Two neighboring towns are closed for the Jewish holidays, but it varies town to town. Where my husband went to high school the whole county is one giant school district, and there are so many different religions practiced an backgrounds celebrated they pretty much have everything off and tolerate everything. My MIL is constantly telling me how diverse their area is (funny since my husband remembers it differently, clearly it has changed in 30-some years) and had a meltdown when my son told her his 4th grade class was performing A Christmas Carol around the holidays a number of years ago (no one else objected). Of course I was always the mom who had to come in during December and show off our menorah and explain Hanukkah to my son's classmates (although we also had Christmas with my family). So we do all of the holidays anyway, whether they're 'Murican or not.