"After Tiller"

[happy atheist]

Yeah, it's not my decision whether someone robs a bank or beats their kid, or jay walks or if the local drug court gives someone community service or sends them to jail. Other things that aren't my decision include whether GMO products should be labeled, if student loans can be included in bankruptcy proceedings and what the immigration requirements are.

In fact, the list of things that are not my decision, but are still regulated by law and not left up to individual definitions of morality are pretty much endless. Some of those things are discussed on a place called the Internet. Often that discussion includes people weighing in on what they think the law should be.

It's a medical decision that should be left up to a woman and her doctor.

[Mama Mia]

It's a medical decision that should be left up to a woman and her doctor.

In this discussion several posters have stated they don't believe restrictions should be placed on abortion of viable fetuses when the life of the mother is not at risk. In those situations how is it a medical decision?

And using that reasoning, wouldn't the Doctor who performed the abortion be going against the generally accepted standard of doing no harm?

Not to mention that the practice of medicine has a huge number of regulations, why should there be no regulation only in this one area?

[slh12280]

That's a really silly stereotype. You can advocate for financial and social support safety nets, think free birth control should be given out at the Jr. High and lead anti-war protests and be anti-abortion.

You can also be gun toting, anti- government assistance for virtually anything, pro- death penalty and also be strongly pro-choice

People tend to have beliefs that can be grouped as mostly conservative or mostly liberal, but most thinking people are going to look at each issue individually and come to their own conclusions.

Also if you look at any reputable survey, very, very few people will have views that fall at either end of the spectrum of what should be legal regarding abortion. Most people fall somewhere in between 'no abortion, ever, even to save the life of the mother' and ' access to abortion should be legal for whatever reason throughout the entire pregnancy'.

I have nuanced views on a lot of these issues. Like I don't morally have a problem with the death penalty but think it is a waste fiscally so we should either reform it or get rid of it. War is terrible but has its place in certain circumstances. Sometimes government assistance is a real help, sometimes it creates dependency and it is inefficient. I support gun rights but don't have a problem with background checks. I am reluctantly pro-choice to a certain extent. So sometimes I fall between pro-life and pro-choice views. The point I am trying to make is that things are not one extreme or another. Look at the circumstances and sometimes your views do not fit neatly on one side or another. That's the beauty of thinking for yourself. Might be messy but I am ok with that. People can feel free to criticize. Who knows, I might learn something but I do tend to feel strongly about moral issues, even though I have changed my mind before.

[ADoyle90815]

Personally I am not comfortable with the idea of late term abortion, unless there is a severe health problem with the baby which means it will die anyway at birth. Thankfully it happens very rarely though, most are done when it doesn't have feelings and barely resembles anything human.

That's how I feel as well, that late term abortions should only be done in cases where the fetus is going to die at or shortly after birth. Fortunately, these types of abortions have been extremely rare, as most abortions happen before the fetus is viable.

[lilith]

In this discussion several posters have stated they don't believe restrictions should be placed on abortion of viable fetuses when the life of the mother is not at risk. In those situations how is it a medical decision?

And using that reasoning, wouldn't the Doctor who performed the abortion be going against the generally accepted standard of doing no harm?

Not to mention that the practice of medicine has a huge number of regulations, why should there be no regulation only in this one area?

Stating that it is a medical decision that should be between a woman and her doctor doesn't open up the option of women in their third trimester just suddenly deciding to terminate their pregnancy and having a doctor facilitate that (not that I believe that happens - except maybe in the case of mentally ill mothers).

And that leads me to the point of this comment - the well being of the mother doesn't just mean her physical health. If a doctor determines that a late abortion is in the best interests of a woman's physical, emotional, or mental health, who are we to argue with that decision?

There is already a whole heap of regulation surrounding abortion in the USA, even more surrounding second trimester abortion and more again surrounding third trimester. Women aren't getting third trimester abortions simply cause they changed their minds about a pregnancy. Why do you think that more regulation is needed?

The best way to prevent late term abortions is to make access to genetic testing and early abortions easily available and affordable.

[Mama Mia]

Stating that it is a medical decision that should be between a woman and her doctor doesn't open up the option of women in their third trimester just suddenly deciding to terminate their pregnancy and having a doctor facilitate that (not that I believe that happens - except maybe in the case of mentally ill mothers).

And that leads me to the point of this comment - the well being of the mother doesn't just mean her physical health. If a doctor determines that a late abortion is in the best interests of a woman's physical, emotional, or mental health, who are we to argue with that decision?

There is already a whole heap of regulation surrounding abortion in the USA, even more surrounding second trimester abortion and more again surrounding third trimester. Women aren't getting third trimester abortions simply cause they changed their minds about a pregnancy. Why do you think that more regulation is needed?

The best way to prevent late term abortions is to make access to genetic testing and early abortions easily available and affordable.

The point of this thread is the discussion of late term abortion access, in the original post the stories of two women who wanted an abortion past the point of viability, with no life threatening issues. Some people are saying that this should be legal. Some people are saying it should not. That is what the discussion has been about. That is why I am stating my opinion on the topic.

And no, I don't think that past the point of viability the emotional or mental health of the mother should trump the actual life of a viable fetus who is not dependent on her for survival once delivered. Not to be too flippant, but if there's someone whose demise would greatly improve my emotional health, it just isn't an option.

[usedtobenice]

And that is your choice for you,it's not your right to make that choice for anyone else.

[happy atheist]

In this discussion several posters have stated they don't believe restrictions should be placed on abortion of viable fetuses when the life of the mother is not at risk. In those situations how is it a medical decision?

It is a medical procedure, therefor it is a medical decision.

[lilith]

The point of this thread is the discussion of late term abortion access, in the original post the stories of two women who wanted an abortion past the point of viability, with no life threatening issues. Some people are saying that this should be legal. Some people are saying it should not. That is what the discussion has been about. That is why I am stating my opinion on the topic.

And no, I don't think that past the point of viability the emotional or mental health of the mother should trump the actual life of a viable fetus who is not dependent on her for survival once delivered. Not to be too flippant, but if there's someone whose demise would greatly improve my emotional health, it just isn't an option.

So a mother having a psychotic breakdown who has clearly stated that she couldn't live with the reality of delivering a severely premature child and the suffering it would cause that child but who is in no way equipped emotionally to continue the pregnancy should...... Suck it up cause you say so? Or take the advice and help of the medical professionals who care for her and understand her condition?

[OkToBeTakei]

Under UK law, an abortion can usually only be carried out during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy as long as certain criteria are met (see below).

The Abortion Act 1967 covers the UK mainland (England, Scotland and Wales) but not Northern Ireland. The law states that:

abortions must be carried out in a hospital or a specialist licensed clinic

two doctors must agree that an abortion would cause less damage to a woman's physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy

There are also a number of rarer situations when the law states an abortion may be carried out after 24 weeks. These include:

if it is necessary to save the woman's life

to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman

if there is substantial risk that if the child were born, s/he would have physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped

I'm ok with the law here. It has remained fairly unchanged since 1967 amendments in the 90's to reflect human fertilisation/embryology. Tends not to be used as a political weapon, as it tends to bring political suicide for politicians. Recently a minister tabled a motion to open discussions to reduce the 24 week limit. He was very publicly slapped down by his own party and PM. Is it an ideal system? I don't know. I just know it is a system based on law and not personal belief. If it was it would not reflect society.

Statistics for those interested.

Total abortions performed 2012.

185,122

3-8 weeks 127,033

9-12 weeks 41,415

13-19 weeks 13,815

20-23 weeks 2,700

Over 24 weeks 160

24 weeks and 0 days gestation is included in 23 weeks, because the legislation distinguishes between abortions up to 24 weeks and over 24 weeks

abortions undertaken at over 24 weeks can only be carried out in an NHS hospital Note: percentages are rounded and may not add up to 100.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... istics.pdf

The full data is available and is comprehensive for anybody interested.

[starfish]

That's a really silly stereotype. You can advocate for financial and social support safety nets, think free birth control should be given out at the Jr. High and lead anti-war protests and be anti-abortion.

You can also be gun toting, anti- government assistance for virtually anything, pro- death penalty and also be strongly pro-choice

People tend to have beliefs that can be grouped as mostly conservative or mostly liberal, but most thinking people are going to look at each issue individually and come to their own conclusions.

Also if you look at any reputable survey, very, very few people will have views that fall at either end of the spectrum of what should be legal regarding abortion. Most people fall somewhere in between 'no abortion, ever, even to save the life of the mother' and ' access to abortion should be legal for whatever reason throughout the entire pregnancy'.

There's a reason for stereotypes.

[lilith]

I'm ok with the law here. It has remained fairly unchanged since 1967 amendments in the 90's to reflect human fertilisation/embryology. Tends not to be used as a political weapon, as it tends to bring political suicide for politicians. Recently a minister tabled a motion to open discussions to reduce the 24 week limit. He was very publicly slapped down by his own party and PM. Is it an ideal system? I don't know. I just know it is a system based on law and not personal belief. If it was it would not reflect society.

Statistics for those interested.

Total abortions performed 2012.

185,122

3-8 weeks 127,033

9-12 weeks 41,415

13-19 weeks 13,815

20-23 weeks 2,700

Over 24 weeks 160

24 weeks and 0 days gestation is included in 23 weeks, because the legislation distinguishes between abortions up to 24 weeks and over 24 weeks

abortions undertaken at over 24 weeks can only be carried out in an NHS hospital Note: percentages are rounded and may not add up to 100.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... istics.pdf

The full data is available and is comprehensive for anybody interested.

It's very similar to our law here in NSW (abortion law varies by state here), and reinforces that when affordable accessible first trimester abortion is available very few women seek third trimester abortions.

[Stephanie66]

Veering a little off topic, but should someone who is terminally ill and in agonizing pain "suck it up" and not take adequate pain relief because it might end his or her life sooner? Pro-life people say yes. I say they don't get to make that decision.

I think people who are pro-life should watch this movie. I did lean against third trimester abortions. And if parents (or a woman) WANTS to give birth to a child who will die in a few days, or not be able to move her joints, or be born without a brain, that should be HER decision. It shouldn't be up to the people holding the signs outside. Some women DO decide they want to do this, either because they want to meet their child, or donate the organs, or any number of reasons. Being pro-choice means supporting them no matter what decision they ultimately make. I am just as much against pressuring a woman to HAVE an abortion or mandating birth control or abortion as I am mandating against it.

I did really appreciate that the doctor called it a baby and a stillbirth and prepared the women for that. I do get irritated when pro-choice people call a second or third trimester fetus a "clump of cells" or "tissue" or "product of conception." It is a baby and it is okay to call it that. And it is okay if the woman grieves. But I don't think it is fair to expect her to regret it. I really loved the Albuquerque doctors. They were just so fantastic. But I really liked Shelley, because she told them exactly what to say when they went home. ("The baby was sick. We went for tests. The baby didn't make it. I don't want to talk about it right now.") and that if they feel regret later, not to be too hard on themselves, and to remember where they were then. She is so emotionally intelligent.

[salex]

Too much blurring of the lines and you get this

Rennie Gibbs’s daughter, Samiya, was a month premature when she simultaneously entered the world and left it, never taking a breath. To experts who later examined the medical record, the stillborn infant’s most likely cause of death was also the most obvious: the umbilical cord wrapped around her neck.

But within days of Samiya’s delivery in November 2006, Steven Hayne, Mississippi’s de facto medical examiner at the time, came to a different conclusion. Autopsy tests had turned up traces of a cocaine byproduct in Samiya’s blood, and Hayne declared her death a homicide, caused by “cocaine toxicity.â€

In early 2007, a Lowndes County grand jury indicted Gibbs, a 16-year-old black teen, for “depraved heart murder†— defined under Mississippi law as an act “eminently dangerous to others…regardless of human life.†By smoking crack during her pregnancy, the indictment said, Gibbs had “unlawfully, willfully, and feloniously†caused the death of her baby. The maximum sentence: life in prison.

propublica.org/article/stillborn-child-charge-of-murder-and-disputed-case-law-on-fetal-harm

[slh12280]

Veering a little off topic, but should someone who is terminally ill and in agonizing pain "suck it up" and not take adequate pain relief because it might end his or her life sooner? Pro-life people say yes. I say they don't get to make that decision.

In a way a lot of this is connected to end of life issues. And for the record, I am totally for giving dying people whatever makes them comfortable, even if it does speed up their imminent death. My father works in healthcare so I grew up with a more personal, realistic view of what the end of life stuff means since I heard about it in real world terms. But being humane at the end of life is not the same as purposely ending a life. If someone decides to stop medical treatments and it kills them then that was their choice. So in way, we do agree. I really don't want to make this about euthanasia or physician assisted suicide as not to get off topic. To me, I was referring to elective abortions with a healthy mother and healthy fetus past viability, sometimes significantly so. I don't think we will ever agree on what the law should say but all I can say is life and death ethics can be so complicated and fraught with emotion so I am glad things have stayed so civil. I have just stated what my views are on those issues.

[tankgirl]

I wasn't sure if I should post this as it was a friend at the times story, but I think some of you have no clue and I hope hearing it at least gives some people some pause to think. *Possible SI triggers*

In my late teens a friend discovered she was pregnant, slightly late, cause she continued to have what she thought were periods for at least two cycles into her pregnancy. By the time she got money, a ride to a town 2 hours away, she was told she was too far along to abort in our area. By this point her mental health had already been slipping, she had a history of ED and self harm, which had both been in check before she got pregnant, but she started to fall back hard. It was horrible to watch.

The PP she went to did tell her about a late term provider, a close relative who previously was against her aborting, paid to send her to the clinic as my friend started to have other issues, and was possibly looking into ways to give herself an abortion at home.

Due to her making just enough she couldn't get on state aid for mental health help, and not enough to be able to afford to pay to see any one she was stuck. Her illnesses were out of control mixed with the hormones and stress she was under.

Basically I saw a brilliant woman, crash in front of me. We also suspect she might have been drinking, but usually in her ED slide she tended to worry too much about the calories, but we had suspicions.

She was not 30 weeks, but probably closer to 20, its been a long time now since this happened. But this was some one, who was not healthy enough to continue a pregnancy, the child was sure to have issues, from at least the severe calorie restriction, lack of prenatal care, and possible drinking. She was highly likely to have also done serious damage to herself or the fetus, if her self injury had continued at the rate it was going. BTW she wasn't a scratcher, she was a burner, cigarettes, boiling pots of water, she was even caught trying to dump a small pan of cooking oil on herself. She also attacked her stomach at least once with a hammer, leaving huge bruises. All this while pregnant.

The Doctor was kind to her, and her relative helped her a lot. We lost track of each other after college, but she did finally get some mental health help, and after the abortion, she did see an almost immediate change in her desires towards the ED and SI. She did swear she never wanted kids out of fear of the whats its, and was trying to get permanently fixed, but not sure if she ever did, but a doctor did get her permission for an IUD much younger and with no kids then typically allowed.

Seeing with my own eyes what can go wrong, is why I think we need options. I never saw anything good with making someone like my friend continue, I just wish, cheaper and easier access had been available to her, so she wouldn't have had to wait, and of course medical access to mental health care as well but that is another rant. This might not change everyone's minds but it changed mine, sometimes options we don't necessarily like have to be on the table, so we don't loss women, who are already here.