"After Tiller"

[Stephanie66]

It's a documentary available for a fee on Youtube. It isn't on Netflix yet. It's about the four doctors in the United States who do third trimester abortions. Two do them in Albuquerque, NM, one did in Nebraska and then the laws changed to NO abortions after 20 weeks so he moved to Maryland, and one does them in Boulder, CO.

I was always on the fence about third trimester abortions in the case where there is no fetal abnormality or risk of life or health of mother. They DO show a few situations like this. In some, the women are declined and in some they are approved. It depended on a few different things, but one was just too far along for the doctor to be comfortable doing it (I believe she was 30 weeks). In another, the woman was just so desperate. She lacked funds, then the costs just kept going up and up and up, and then finally she got the money together. I don't know how you would say no, she can't have an abortion. She knows what she wants. She doesn't want a baby. She came from (wherever) to Albuquerque to have one and she wants it done. The doctor said it bothers her because it IS a stillborn baby. But it isn't her decision to make.

I think the most heartbreaking part was parents who had wanted pregnancies and are crying, talking about why they have to terminate, and these people are out there with their signs. How is that helpful? They are so clueless.

And one of the doctors had a barn full of horses burned down because he kills babies. Nice.

I highly recommend it. It shifted something inside of me. I am pro-choice, but sorta leaned pro-life on third trimester. I don't anymore. It's not my decision. No one wants to have an abortion, and if they are that desperate, then they should have one.

[DGayle]

When it's third trimester and the baby's got to come out either way, dead or alive, why not just have it be a delivery? What if it was a 40-week abortion? I do know a woman who 100% supports abortions clear up until the cord is cut, justifying it as it's still a fetus that is still part of the woman's body by the word, and she really means this. At what point would you say the baby has the right to life, even if that means delivering early? And adopting? If a woman no longer wants to be pregnant and there's not a medical problem, fine. Just deliver the baby alive. Killing a viable baby without medical reason is murder.

[slh12280]

I started a topic earlier here: http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=20672

Anyway, yeah, definitely an emotionally charged issue. My opinion may not be well received by some of the more liberal FJer's but here it goes. I think late term abortions should only be reserved for extreme medical situations. Like the baby will not survive, or survival is slim and it would cause harm to the woman to continue and give birth. That is an obvious situation. If a woman needs an emergency abortion to save her life. There is no other way to remove the fetus alive. Other than extreme harm, I can't really see a reason. I think for the most part, that is the case. Even the Supreme Court says that abortion is not an absolute right. But really, I don't think that elective abortion should be available throughout the pregnancy, not that many women at all would do that. Since these only make up like 1% of abortions. Yeah, people get caught in tough situations but I think the line needs to be drawn. However, I agree that the line between elective and necessary can get blurred at times and let the doctors determine those issues. But this is my opinion since I consider it a life worth protecting at that point.

The trailer was interesting and I wish I could watch it! The cases where the women had babies with such bad conditions really made me feel for them. What a horrible situation to be in. I can't really judge them. I don't know what I would do.

[Mama Mia]

I started a topic earlier here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20672

Anyway, yeah, definitely an emotionally charged issue. My opinion may not be well received by some of the more liberal FJer's but here it goes. I think late term abortions should only be reserved for extreme medical situations. Like the baby will not survive, or survival is slim and it would cause harm to the woman to continue and give birth. That is an obvious situation. If a woman needs an emergency abortion to save her life. There is no other way to remove the fetus alive. Other than extreme harm, I can't really see a reason. I think for the most part, that is the case. Even the Supreme Court says that abortion is not an absolute right. But really, I don't think that elective abortion should be available throughout the pregnancy, not that many women at all would do that. Since these only make up like 1% of abortions. Yeah, people get caught in tough situations but I think the line needs to be drawn. However, I agree that the line between elective and necessary can get blurred at times and let the doctors determine those issues. But this is my opinion since I consider it a life worth protecting at that point.

The trailer was interesting and I wish I could watch it! The cases where the women had babies with such bad conditions really made me feel for them. What a horrible situation to be in. I can't really judge them. I don't know what I would do.

I agree with you. I think past the point of viability it makes no sense for abortion to be available, except in cases where the abortion is really more of a form of euthanasia for a baby that will be born with conditions that are incompatible with life, or the mothers life is threatened. And I would assume in most cases where the mothers life is threatened and the baby is at the point of viability, immediate delivery is just as likely to save the mothers life.

[Rebelwife]

I agree with you. I think past the point of viability it makes no sense for abortion to be available, except in cases where the abortion is really more of a form of euthanasia for a baby that will be born with conditions that are incompatible with life, or the mothers life is threatened. And I would assume in most cases where the mothers life is threatened and the baby is at the point of viability, immediate delivery is just as likely to save the mothers life.

I don't really disagree with you, but it is such a nuanced question. What is the point of viability? Most doctors today would say 23 weeks or so realistically. You enter your third trimester at 28 weeks. A baby induced at that age is very likely going to have problems associated with prematurity and at the very least need lots of support. Who is going to pay for that? What kind of emotional toll will it take on the mother? If the woman really doesn't want a child but isn't comfortable with adoption what is the solution? What if there isn't anyone willing to adopt a medically fragile premie who might have all kinds of permanent problems?

I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, but I do think there's a huge difference in inducing at 28 weeks vs. 37+ weeks. I also feel like women are trapped in so many ways. If safe, affordable early abortion was widely available everywhere in the country I'd have a lot less sympathy for women who wait late in their pregnancy to abort. The reality is, though, that it is harder and harder for many women, especially poor ones, to obtain abortions. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of aborting fetuses so late in pregnancy when it's not for non-viability or health, but I can't see it as purely black and white either.

[MonkeyMomma]

What did you search to find the full doc? I'm trying to find it and I'm only getting clips, trailers, and angry anti-choicers.

[nellautumngirl]

When it's third trimester and the baby's got to come out either way, dead or alive, why not just have it be a delivery? What if it was a 40-week abortion? I do know a woman who 100% supports abortions clear up until the cord is cut, justifying it as it's still a fetus that is still part of the woman's body by the word, and she really means this. At what point would you say the baby has the right to life, even if that means delivering early? And adopting? If a woman no longer wants to be pregnant and there's not a medical problem, fine. Just deliver the baby alive. Killing a viable baby without medical reason is murder.

Maybe because a delivery would be traumatic for these women who didn't want to be pregnant in the first place? What if there are complications? What if the woman dies?

In my country, I wouldn't support third-term-abortion. But that's because every woman here has access to an abortion before it comes to this problem. But in the US, I think the costs are much higher and it is much more difficult to travel to an abortion clinic, so I'm not sure where I stand on this.

[slh12280]

I don't really disagree with you, but it is such a nuanced question. What is the point of viability? Most doctors today would say 23 weeks or so realistically. You enter your third trimester at 28 weeks. A baby induced at that age is very likely going to have problems associated with prematurity and at the very least need lots of support. Who is going to pay for that? What kind of emotional toll will it take on the mother? If the woman really doesn't want a child but isn't comfortable with adoption what is the solution? What if there isn't anyone willing to adopt a medically fragile premie who might have all kinds of permanent problems?

I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, but I do think there's a huge difference in inducing at 28 weeks vs. 37+ weeks. I also feel like women are trapped in so many ways. If safe, affordable early abortion was widely available everywhere in the country I'd have a lot less sympathy for women who wait late in their pregnancy to abort. The reality is, though, that it is harder and harder for many women, especially poor ones, to obtain abortions. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of aborting fetuses so late in pregnancy when it's not for non-viability or health, but I can't see it as purely black and white either.

Oh, I definitely see what you are saying and it is a valid point but I guess what I am saying is at that point I am much more leaning in favor of protecting life. And I do really wish women were not in those situations. Really I wish women had access to reliable birth control when they needed it and early abortion. I wish a lot of things but this is the reality we have to deal with. I just would hate it that a woman felt that was the only option she had left due to overly restrictive laws and lack of societal support.

[blackkatya]

Maybe because a delivery would be traumatic for these women who didn't want to be pregnant in the first place? What if there are complications? What if the woman dies?

In my country, I wouldn't support third-term-abortion. But that's because every woman here has access to an abortion before it comes to this problem. But in the US, I think the costs are much higher and it is much more difficult to travel to an abortion clinic, so I'm not sure where I stand on this.

Aren't third-trimester abortions done by a digoxin shot followed by labor induction?

[blackkatya]

Also, I second posting a link to the movie, please. :) I've been wanting to see this and haven't been able to find it.

[Mama Mia]

Aren't third-trimester abortions done by a digoxin shot followed by labor induction?

Yeah, I really don't get the idea of delivery being too traumatic, since obviously that far into the pregnancy the process is going to be basically the same.

[starfish]

One problem is that if abortions are banned or allowed to be performed for only certain reasons, doctors will just stop performing them altogether.

That's what has happened in Texas with the new, very restrictive laws.

You can detect a life-threatening condition or a fetal anomaly incompatible with life at 20 weeks, and there is no doctor in the state that will now

perform an abortion even though those are exceptions permitted by law.

The doctors don't trust the laws, they are afraid of the liability, etc. so they just won't do them. The women in these situations have to go to Arkansas for

a second term abortion.

Just my two cents worth.

[Stephanie66]

What did you search to find the full doc? I'm trying to find it and I'm only getting clips, trailers, and angry anti-choicers.

Youtube. It is 3.99

The doctor did refuse a "I was in denial that I was pregnant" termination at 30 weeks. However, she did do a "I didn't know what to do until now and I want an abortion now" at (I think) 25 weeks. I think there should be an end point on all of them, obviously 30 weeks, unless the mother's life is in danger.

[Black Aliss]

In my country, I wouldn't support third-term-abortion. But that's because every woman here has access to an abortion before it comes to this problem. But in the US, I think the costs are much higher and it is much more difficult to travel to an abortion clinic, so I'm not sure where I stand on this.

This. If you want to prevent late-term abortions of healthy fetuses, you can do that by making first term abortions readily available and affordable. A woman who has been desperately seeking an abortion since she was maybe 10-11 weeks along is not going to be in a position to consider carrying her 30 week fetus to term for another 6 weeks.

The other thing you can do to reduce the number of abortions that are performed is to provide a financial safety net for the parents of all children so that women don't feel they have to abort a pregnancy because at some point after conception their life circumstances changed so drastically that they don't see a way to provide for the child.

[Stephanie66]

Yes, in the movie, the woman had been trying to get an abortion since she found out she was pregnant, but lacked funds. Then she was going to use her tax refund, but her son got sick and ended up in the hospital for four days, so that money was gone. She finally got the money together, then had to go to Albuquerque. She was struggling with God and said her family would believe her to be a murderer. But she was desperate because she couldn't raise another child. The doctor did bring up adoption. She said that since she had planned on aborting the entire time, there was no prenatal care and she had been drinking and not taking care of herself. (Plus she was black). So you have to also think what is life going to be like for this baby? I really liked the one doctor in Albuquerque who said that she doesn't know if women regret it down the line, but she would ask them to go back to that moment and remember how they felt then before they get too hard on themselves.

[Mama Mia]

Yes, in the movie, the woman had been trying to get an abortion since she found out she was pregnant, but lacked funds. Then she was going to use her tax refund, but her son got sick and ended up in the hospital for four days, so that money was gone. She finally got the money together, then had to go to Albuquerque. She was struggling with God and said her family would believe her to be a murderer. But she was desperate because she couldn't raise another child. The doctor did bring up adoption. She said that since she had planned on aborting the entire time, there was no prenatal care and she had been drinking and not taking care of herself. (Plus she was black). So you have to also think what is life going to be like for this baby? I really liked the one doctor in Albuquerque who said that she doesn't know if women regret it down the line, but she would ask them to go back to that moment and remember how they felt then before they get too hard on themselves.

I can understand her frustration and desperation, but still at 30 weeks, with a fetus that may be perfectly healthy? No.

Is there a possibility the baby suffered from fetal alcohol syndrome? Sure. But considering she managed to go through all these hoops, get a tax refund, get her kid to a hospital, pay for treatment, arrange plane tickets and on and on.....it sounds doubtful to me that she was drinking like a fish. The alcoholic mothers I worked with in a treatment setting whose children were born with FAS would never have been able to do all that. I know FAS can occur with even minimal drinking at the wrong time, but really, you would be surprised how many children of heavy drinking, drug addicted mothers are perfectly fine. This is the exact field I worked in and I was very surprised how few of the kids had actual long term issues, other than a pretty high rate of ADHD. And my impression is that a black infant is very adoptable, it's older children who have problems being adopted.

[E Street Fan]

For me, the issue of late-stage abortion goes back to two principles: It isn't my body. And the decision is between a woman and her doctor. Period.

It isn't my decision whether somebody should or should not have an abortion at any stage.

It isn't my decision whether somebody waited too long and now should have to carry the pregnancy through to a live delivery.

It isn't my decision whether somebody should carry a pregnancy through to live delivery and place the child for adoption (even if there were enough adoptive parents, which there are not).

I don't believe that late-stage abortion is an easy decision.

[bal maiden]

Yes, in the movie, the woman had been trying to get an abortion since she found out she was pregnant, but lacked funds. Then she was going to use her tax refund, but her son got sick and ended up in the hospital for four days, so that money was gone. She finally got the money together, then had to go to Albuquerque. She was struggling with God and said her family would believe her to be a murderer. But she was desperate because she couldn't raise another child. The doctor did bring up adoption. She said that since she had planned on aborting the entire time, there was no prenatal care and she had been drinking and not taking care of herself. (Plus she was black). So you have to also think what is life going to be like for this baby? I really liked the one doctor in Albuquerque who said that she doesn't know if women regret it down the line, but she would ask them to go back to that moment and remember how they felt then before they get too hard on themselves.

um, whut? (re: the bolded)

[Rebelwife]

um, whut? (re: the bolded)

I think she was referring to the fact that healthy white babies are still what many, if not most, adoptive couples are looking for.

[Mama Mia]

For me, the issue of late-stage abortion goes back to two principles: It isn't my body. And the decision is between a woman and her doctor. Period.

It isn't my decision whether somebody should or should not have an abortion at any stage.

It isn't my decision whether somebody waited too long and now should have to carry the pregnancy through to a live delivery.

It isn't my decision whether somebody should carry a pregnancy through to live delivery and place the child for adoption (even if there were enough adoptive parents, which there are not).

I don't believe that late-stage abortion is an easy decision.

But once it is at the point of viability it isn't the same situation. Following that logic you might as well say that it's none of your business if she decides to kill her 3 month old.

[Stephanie66]

I should have clarified. A woman who had "no good reason" was denied at 30 weeks because it was too far along. I believe this was the overall practice of the office. I don't know how far along the woman was who had been trying to get an abortion since she was first pregnant...she didn't look gigantic, so maybe late second trimester? Over 20 weeks for sure.

One of the prices was $10K. I don't know how much a normal delivery is these days, but unless insurance is covering it, I can't imagine many women can scrape together 10K for an abortion.

Yes, I hesitated on putting the "black" thing in there, but one of the things (primarily white) people say is how there are waiting lists of people wanting to adopt these babies. Yet, black infants who are born with drugs in their system are just not so adoptable. Black infants aren't as adoptable. So that's why I included it. It wasn't meant to be offensive.

ETA: If someone is willing to abort their 30 week baby (and even the doctor admits it is a baby) do we really want that same woman raising this child? Because that IS her right. She doesn't have to give the kid up for adoption and she might not. It's not like a child born to a mom unwilling to love it is going to have this awesome life of rainbows and unicorns because it's mother was denied an abortion. Yes, it bothers me enormously, but not all mothers who are denied abortions are going to choose adoption. Some do much worse things to them than abort them.

[Mama Mia]

I had a relative who considered adoption, of a bi-racial infant. While looking through websites of prospective adoptive parents there are many, many families who don't care about the race/ ethnicity of the baby.

Part of the reason there are so many children in foster care is because large numbers actually aren't adoptable because parental rights were never terminated. Most infants who are placed in care at birth ( usually due to testing positive for drugs) , have parent(s) who are actively trying for reunification. Often not doing a very good job of it. So the process gets drawn out over a couple of years with the kid being bounced around. They have tried to improve this by shortening the deadlines for permanent placement for infants, but every time the parent regains custody it stops the clock.

[Stephanie66]

It's a big assumption to make that a pregnant woman is going to give her unborn baby up for adoption.

[blackkatya]

I should have clarified. A woman who had "no good reason" was denied at 30 weeks because it was too far along. I believe this was the overall practice of the office. I don't know how far along the woman was who had been trying to get an abortion since she was first pregnant...she didn't look gigantic, so maybe late second trimester? Over 20 weeks for sure.

One of the prices was $10K. I don't know how much a normal delivery is these days, but unless insurance is covering it, I can't imagine many women can scrape together 10K for an abortion.

Just finished it. The doctor did say their clinic policy was to accept third trimester abortions on a case-by-case basis. Moral issues aside, I would also guess that maternal/fetal indications probably take priority, so there may not even be any "slots" for the more elective procedures.

I believe a normal delivery is comparable in price, but those are usually covered by insurance (mine covers L&D costs nearly 100%, but doesn't cover abortion at all).

[RosyDaisy]

The other thing you can do to reduce the number of abortions that are performed is to provide a financial safety net for the parents of all children so that women don't feel they have to abort a pregnancy because at some point after conception their life circumstances changed so drastically that they don't see a way to provide for the child.

This is why pro-lifers aren't truly pro-life.