Shooting at Liberty University

[Caramel]

I read this morning that a security guard at Liberty University shot (fatally) a male student in the lobby of a women-only dorm after curfew last night. Does anyone know more about this?

[SayNoToMullets]

Got this link from an FB friend who went to LU:

http://www.wset.com/story/24006538/upda ... m-shooting

[Raptor]

I saw that on my facebook feed today. The only thing I see is the official statement on their website.

liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=106592

"We have received reports that a Liberty University Emergency Services Officer was attacked by a male student in the lobby of a women's-only dorm early this morning. The student was shot and killed and the officer was transported to Lynchburg General Hospital for treatment. The Lynchburg Police Department is investigating the matter and Liberty University is cooperating. President Jerry Falwell, Jr. issued the following statement: 'The Liberty University community is deeply saddened by this tragic event and is prayerfully supporting all those impacted.'"

How do they not have information and are just receiving reports from their own school?

[Caramel]

Six or seven shots?!

[Caramel]

19 year old freshman from Lubbock had a sledgehammer. Campus cop fired 6 or 7 shots. Cop treated and released.

[fun2beme]

Regardless of where it happened, it's still very sad for everyone affected by it.

[gustava]

Gotta be more to the story. Why kill a guy with a sledgehammer?

[Caramel]

Now there's something about how the kid called campus security to make a false report that someone had stolen or damaged his car or something. Campus security responded and the officer was taking his statement when the kid pulled out a hammer and hit the security guy with it. So, the security guy fired seven shots. The roommate has said that the kid was acting erratically for several weeks, worried about money. On the one hand, could be. On the other, Liberty U. would find it very handy about now to portray the now-deceased kid, Josh, as goofy on the junk.

[gustava]

Read this morning that it was two shots and that he had a full scholarship, after attending a Christian school in Texas.

[Sarietty]

Is it typical for campus security to carry firearms? This seems like an extreme weapon for campus security guards to have at their immediate disposal. I've lived on and around several college campuses in a variety of demographic areas (low and high crime rates, urban, extremely rural) and college security has always called in outside law enforcement in serious situations. I've never seen a campus security officer carrying a gun.

It's hard not to suspect that Liberty University provides security guards with firearms because of a generally pro-gun atmosphere at the school. Without getting into the whole pro/anti-gun argument, I do wonder whether it's typical for a well trained security guard or law enforcement agent to fire seven shots at a single target in a situation where the suspect is armed with a fairly limited weapon. (A sledgehammer can do a lot of damage, but it's not a gun or a bomb.) To me, it sounds like an extremely high number of shots to fire.

[gustava]

Liberty is one of a few colleges that lets security carry guns, and I think lets anyone with a permit carry concealed on campus.

Guess their belief that the Lord will protect them is....weak.

[apple1]

Is it typical for campus security to carry firearms?

The (secular) university of which I am an alumnus has campus police armed with firearms. (And yes, they are called "police", not "security" - for whatever reason).

[Savoring Samsara]

The (secular) university of which I am an alumnus has campus police armed with firearms. (And yes, they are called "police", not "security" - for whatever reason).

It's fairly common for large, public universities in the US to have a department of the local police force dedicated only to patrolling the campus, I think. It's that way at the one I attended.

[fullmetalheart]

Guns are banned on campus at the two private Christian colleges I've attended, and are also banned at the graduate schools I'm looking at. It seems more common for the larger state schools and I'm kind of surprised they are allowed at Liberty.

[Slt]

At our local state university, which is the same size student-wise as liberty, we have our own REAL police department. They work in collaboration with the city's PD for larger cases. I wouldn't be surprised if LU had one, too.

Even if it's not... Did you know Bank of America fired all of their off-duty cops for cheaper, rent-a-cops with guns? Dunno what these places are thinking other than helping their final numbers. That's what it's all about! Wells Fargo removed all police in a majority of locations (even in dangerous locations that frequently get robbed) and replaced with nothing. DH knows several employees that quit for that reason.

Edited to fix my ipad typing errors.

[Slt]

Ps- yep. Full PD at liberty.

liberty.edu/administration/lupd/

[JesusFightClub]

What weapon were they armed with? And I have to say, ARMED "campus security" is creepy as fuck.

I did a stint as security (non-campus) and the biggest thing about security is how to de-escalate a situation. That's what gets results, because the best result is everyone walks away unharmed. If the situation has gone way over your head to deal with, there are other resources (duty manager, emergency services). No good result would be "whip out a gun, shoot person". The problem is, if you give someone a gun, that's what they may default to.

It's not that I'm a big pacifist fanny. I just think if you have to shoot people it's sort of a worst-case scenario and you should attempt to avoid it where it's neither politically nor personally necessary.

[Slt]

Is it typical for campus security to carry firearms? This seems like an extreme weapon for campus security guards to have at their immediate disposal. I've lived on and around several college campuses in a variety of demographic areas (low and high crime rates, urban, extremely rural) and college security has always called in outside law enforcement in serious situations. I've never seen a campus security officer carrying a gun.

It's hard not to suspect that Liberty University provides security guards with firearms because of a generally pro-gun atmosphere at the school. Without getting into the whole pro/anti-gun argument, I do wonder whether it's typical for a well trained security guard or law enforcement agent to fire seven shots at a single target in a situation where the suspect is armed with a fairly limited weapon. (A sledgehammer can do a lot of damage, but it's not a gun or a bomb.) To me, it sounds like an extremely high number of shots to fire.

I know that it is hard to understand for those not in a police mentality, but the assailant hit him in the head with he sledgehammer. That is deadly force. If he renders the police officer unconscious, there is no longer any defense the officer can protect himself with. You assume at that point the suspect is going to kill you. You shoot until you eliminate the threat (until they go down). 6 or 7 shots may sound like a lot, but it is common for someone with a metal disorder or on drugs to continue to fight, wounds and all for much longer than a normal person is able.

I know there are some outside of police culture that will not agree, and that is fine. I just want to provide another view.

Edited: ipad issues!

[JesusFightClub]

It is important to hear another side - thank you for that, slt.

I don't really care that much about how many shots - different weaponry, etc. It's sort of like when people complain that x armed copper or soldier "should just have shot the bad guy in the leg" or "should have shot the gun out of his hand" :lol: It doesn't reallly work like that. So, agree with you there.

(Weirdly, I think I agree with everyone on this thread but in different ways!)

What I don't understand is why armed coppers are a staple of any uni campus. For fuck's sake, I did security in places like that and your biggest threat is normally weeping studes who threaten to kill themselves or two female students arguing over a Big Man On Campus. Neither of those requires a gun, both of those require sitting down with a cup of tea and a chat. Soft skills, not bullets.

Arming the polis as a matter of course will defo not be happening come the Revolution, and it's for two reasons. (Aside from the whole FUCK NO ITS COPPERS thing.)

First, there are few situations which benefit from the addition of a copper with a gun. If you look at this one strength of numbers would have been more useful and prevented a death.

Second, I know from police recruits. They're a bit like army recruits - young and very enamoured of "getting in a rumble" or "kicking some heads in". Giving them a gun is fine if you just want them to kill whoever you point them towards and kid on they're in Call of Duty (until the PTSD kicks in) but if you'd prefer them not to do that, arming them is an error. Even our specialist armed police units make horrible mistakes, so how much more would PC Campbell, on the streets for the first time and scared, do so?

[apple1]

What I don't understand is why armed coppers are a staple of any uni campus.

I can only comment about my alma mater.

The problem there is generally not the students nor staff. The issue is that the campus is in a high crime area and by its nature and non-students/non-staff are not kept off the campus. The campus police function almost like city police. They operate in cooperation with the city police, and instead of having a city police precinct as primary campus coverage.

[gustava]

I know that it is hard to understand for those not in a police mentality, but the assailant hit him in the head with he sledgehammer. That is deadly force. If he renders the police officer unconscious, there is no longer any defense the officer can protect himself with. You assume at that point the suspect is going to kill you. You shoot until you eliminate the threat (until they go down). 6 or 7 shots may sound like a lot, but it is common for someone with a metal disorder or on drugs to continue to fight, wounds and all for much longer than a normal person is able.

I know there are some outside of police culture that will not agree, and that is fine. I just want to provide another view.

Edited: ipad issues!

I had not read that the police officer was actually hit; I think the news coverage has been a bit thin. Thanks for the info.

[JesusFightClub]

We didn't have a closed campus and we did have crime. The biggest crime was theft - usually the thieves would be innocent, wide-eyed boys who were "juist collectin fer disabled weans". Except they weren't - what they were doing was twofold, they would either try the door of anyone who didn't answer and make off with their stuff if the door was unlocked or forceable, or if you did answer they would strip you of some cash and depending on how rich you looked, search you out later for further depredations.

How this was dealt with was actually easy because the culprits weren't armed and neither was I. I would say things like "Tragic, innit. However you aren't allowed to solicit here and if you persist I'll call the police. Bye now."

I do understand that sometimes there are threats of more dangerous crime and that campuses can be located in high crime areas (although that seems like kind of a mistake). But it still seems weird that the default position is "arm them because everyone is armed and so we need to be armed too." You're obviously going to get serious conflict under those circs.

[dawbs]

It is important to hear another side - thank you for that, slt.

I don't really care that much about how many shots - different weaponry, etc. It's sort of like when people complain that x armed copper or soldier "should just have shot the bad guy in the leg" or "should have shot the gun out of his hand" :lol: It doesn't reallly work like that. So, agree with you there.

(Weirdly, I think I agree with everyone on this thread but in different ways!)

What I don't understand is why armed coppers are a staple of any uni campus. For fuck's sake, I did security in places like that and your biggest threat is normally weeping studes who threaten to kill themselves or two female students arguing over a Big Man On Campus. Neither of those requires a gun, both of those require sitting down with a cup of tea and a chat. Soft skills, not bullets.

Arming the polis as a matter of course will defo not be happening come the Revolution, and it's for two reasons. (Aside from the whole FUCK NO ITS COPPERS thing.)

First, there are few situations which benefit from the addition of a copper with a gun. If you look at this one strength of numbers would have been more useful and prevented a death.

Second, I know from police recruits. They're a bit like army recruits - young and very enamoured of "getting in a rumble" or "kicking some heads in". Giving them a gun is fine if you just want them to kill whoever you point them towards and kid on they're in Call of Duty (until the PTSD kicks in) but if you'd prefer them not to do that, arming them is an error. Even our specialist armed police units make horrible mistakes, so how much more would PC Campbell, on the streets for the first time and scared, do so?

See, I think there's a difference in perception and in what happens.

I work on a college campus in one of the most violent cities in the US.

We have 'campus security' (who are young people with walkie talkies and some training--these are young recruits but they're taking this job as a resume booster while they are recruits and they do their LEO trainings) and we have 'campus police" (who have guns).

I can't speak for what other campuses do (or at least not much. I know a few campus cops, Mr. Dawbs has a few friends on the force at 'local to where I live--not the crime ridden place where I work' University, and what they do is very VERY different than what my campus does. But there's a lot of difference between the 2 areas)...but

Our campus police aren't the fresh out of the academy young, enthusiastic recruits. Usually, they're very qualified, very VERY experienced officers who decided to work here instead of wherever they were working before.

And, like what you're saying, 90% of what they do is 'soft' stuff. If I'm looking for Sgt. M , I know that I can probably find him before his shift in the student union, nursing a cuppa joe and talking to students--he's awesome at soft stuff (and when I'm dealing w/ young kids [under 18] who don't trust the cops, he sends in another guy who just has a helluva way w/ young kids, who connects and gets them to not freak out that there's a cop).

But I also know that this area is NOT safe, and, yeah, we DO have the hard stuff. We do 'need' cops w/ guns on campus. I've seen weapons flashed on my campus (they're not allowed; they do exist), I report gang tags on a regular basis, and I've seen people come to blows in our hallways. And the last time I called and said I felt threatened, Sgt. M arrived at my door in under 2 minutes and, honestly, I was glad he was armed. (the student I was dealing w/ wasn't armed--but the incident from the week before, that had been a weapon used, I was on a extra high alert).

I don't want to give every young punk type A with control issues who applies to the police academy a gun...but working where I assume the population around me is carrying weapons all the time, I'm glad that our experienced, stable people like Sgt. M (actually, he recently got a promotion, he's now Lt. M. I'm to lazy to go through and change that) are on the ball and here.

(on that front, while I'm praising the pretty awesome campus police I work with; I got to talk to one of the soon-to-retire officers recently...he's the person who started our program that made sure that all of our officers have first aid/first responder training, back when that was rare. He also piloted the programs to train them to be more than just 'emergency' medical, but to partner with the nursing trainings...so he got us to where we have places students can get some free/reduced cost medical services on campus, through our safety office--not just emergency stuff, but things like vaccines and walk-in-clinic services.

I know, I'm rambling, but, it's truly an awesome thing for this area

It just goes onto the opinion that...having a campus here [both community colleges and prestigious universities--we do actually have both locally] isn't a mistake--this is a community that needs to have accessible ways up and out of poverty --education, career training, etc. They need to see accessible education. They need to see people with education succeed and live lives. And I don't think there's another way to do that. We either have campuses here or we write off the entire area and it's population as a lost cause.)

[Dysfundamental]

The campus police at the two large universities near me carry guns. There have been murders and violent assaults on both campuses, mostly among/between students, though one MIT police officer was murdered by the Boston Marathon bombers. The city is completely supportive of these large universities having armed police forces.

The security personnel at the smaller universities don't carry guns, but there are police substations near their campuses.