Vision Forum Now Closing, Doug Phillips Still a Tool-Part 2

[snarkyjan]

"Xxxx, an estate manager for private residential properties in San Antonio, Texas, ..."

Estate manager, eh? Classy name for "unpaid custodian/maintenance fellow," and I WON'T say "pool boy" because even though it would offer some slight comic relief, there is only ONE pool boy and that is Agador as played by Hank Azaria in "The Birdcage."

As we were.

I was thinking more along the lines of Benny Luke as the maid in "La Cage Aux Folles".

[hoipolloi]

Matter of fact, I cannot imagine that there are not more than a few accomplices, given the scenario and the duration. So, several individuals consciously decided to turn a blind eye???

Not sure if the word "accomplices" fits but it seems hard to believe that a number of people -- Beall, at least a few interns, loyalists like Perry C. -- did NOT know about this given Doug Phillips Is A Tool penchant for ordering & expecting others to do his bidding.

BTW - please don't link directly to VF's websites. Per our FAQ:

What is the deal with breaking links here?

A link is considered "broken" when it is not a live link. If you click on it, you will not be taken to another web page. Nothing at all will happen. If you want to follow the link, you need to copy it into your browser.

Links to news sites and other public sites generally do not need to be broken.

Links to other threads on freejinger.org do not need to be broken.

Links to personal websites should be broken for a number of reasons:

When a fundie notices a sudden increase in traffic that is all traceable to our site, they will often flounce, or take the website private.

Occasionally they will follow us home and make messes on the carpets. They are very rarely housebroken, unfortunately.

The more incoming links a site has, the better it ranks on search engines. By limiting the number of incoming links to these blogs, we can help keep them ranked lower where they will be found by fewer people, thus limiting their audience and potential revenue stream.

Besides the above, we KNOW that VF spends an inordinate amount of capital on scrubbing its websites & generally revising history, so let's not give them more to do!

[debrand]

I hope that the victim has a lot of support from her family and isn't being shamed for this. :cry: If there are others, I hope that they step forward also but we may never know. Some of these families seem like they would exert a lot of pressure on young women to be silent and support the facade of a happy, perfect family no matter what.

[Cleopatra7]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that some of the older kids likely knew their dad was doing whatever he was doing, as did the wife. HOw much they ignored it or helped hide it probably varies. My FIL tended to be a serial cheater from the time my husband was a kid. The oldest brother ignored it... even as an adult. The second brother worked with the father a lot, and met first hand some of the girlfriends in the role of girlfriend, from the time he was a late teen until he was in his 40s... and didn't "tell" until he was in his 40s. Hub's sister and mother "knew" but were willing to be dissuaded by the father when the mom confronted him, though the sister was ready for her mom's divorce before the mother was. My husband followed his dad when he was 16, to prove to himself what was going on....that and other reasons put him firmly on his mother's side. Even after my mother in law hired investigators to prove it to herself, when I mentioned we'd all known of the affairs, she said-- why didn't you tell me. I told her-- I knew because YOU told me!. So there are a lot of mental acrobatics within the family when this is going on.

So, yes, there may have been some telling and some real and pretended shock (both at the actions and at the acknowledgement) it was not likely a complete suprise (whatever "it" was) to Beall or some if not all of the older children... Just my observation about life.

Remember that Biblical patriarchs could have sex with any woman they wanted, and it was okay. The same goes for plantation masters in North and South America. If Beall and the kids really buy into the whole patriarchy notion, then by definition, nothing the patriarch does is wrong.

[mirele]

I hope that the victim has a lot of support from her family and isn't being shamed for this. :cry: If there are others, I hope that they step forward also but we may never know. Some of these families seem like they would exert a lot of pressure on young women to be silent and support the facade of a happy, perfect family no matter what.

If it's the person it's alleged to be, apparently her father loves him some Dougie. Unfortunately, I'm seeing "worst case scenario" here.

Doug Phillips is a tool.

[lemonhead]

TWW is stating that they know they identity of the young woman and will not release it at this time. They also state, "The age would appear to be after the age of consent, from what we have been told."

This is in comments on the entry at thewartburgwatch.com/2013/11/11/breaking-vision-forum-ministries-closing/#comments starting at 7:52 a.m. today.

So...big relief if it turns out the woman was at least not a minor.

[gustava]

Can we avoid using her name please? I know I did earlier, but so many people have made good points about this I have been uncomfortable with the speculation. But at this moment it is speculation and also discussing someone who had a big power differential and was possibly a minor.

It would be nice if we could redact her name.

I agree Treemom. I'm also not comfortable assuming it is a particular person, just based on social media. Let's be a tad cautious until we have more solid information.

[DomWackTroll]

I cannot imagine any way that Beall could have been ignorant of this, given the scenario and the duration. Which would make her an accomplice IMO - perhaps - or perhaps not - legally, but definitely if she knew and turned a blind eye, morally - even given the extreme patriarchal environment.

Matter of fact, I cannot imagine that there are not more than a few accomplices, given the scenario and the duration. So, several individuals consciously decided to turn a blind eye???

Extending the train of thought, abusers rarely are caught with the first victim. It is not impossible that there are more direct victims (in addition to the many victims that are victims by virtue of buying into Doug's crap).

With Beall, I think it was more like denial and exhaustion. I know a lot of people think she "doesn't do anything" because she's had nannies and housekeepers, but I can see how just having to be around Doug and the kids every day-- not to mention having to "perform" 24/7 for the community-- could send someone spiraling into depression and lethargy. Yes, she has enabled Doug and hurt many people-- but I don't think she's "had fun" doing it.

Now, what about the men associated with Doug? I believe Scott Brown was ignorant of this until recently. He has lived at a great distance from Vision Forum for many years. He's not around on a daily basis to observe Doug's interactions with others. And in the sermon he gave last Sunday, one can hear that he can barely control his rage. If he's lying, he deserves an Oscar. Geoff is geographically distanced from Doug, too.

But Perry, Josh Wean, and others who worked closely with Doug on a regular schedule must have known something. This went on for years, FGS! People who are in a sexual relationship, whether it's an affair or abuse, give off signals. And didn't they find it odd that someone from a poor, minority background who had formerly been "just a nanny" was now being given glamorous starring roles as Pocohantas and Reformation beauties at events and in movies?

Voddie's family does not live too far from Vision Forum, yet I never noticed Jasmine Baucham portraying Phyllis Wheatley at events and in movies. Surely Perry and Josh would notice that The Nanny's father was completely beholden to Doug, while Voddie didn't need Doug for anything (and could kick his ass to next Tuesday). And for that matter, why weren't Perry's daughters asked to play Lady Jane or Anne Boleyn?

The power imbalance and the "petting" was so obvious, that if they didn't know, they should have.

[Rescinded and Mended]

Thank you for using the terminology "sexual assault". I have been distressed at the number of times I have read, even in the more recent posts, in this thread, the word "affair". "Affair" implies consent. When a minor is involved, or a significant power imbalance is involved, or the abuser is in a place of significant authority over the abused, there is no actual consent. In this case, involvement with a minor also means actual laws were broken. The pastor/congregant piece adds spiritual abuse into the mess.

No, not an "affair".

I am starting to think that by the time more truth about this mess is revealed, Doug is going to make Jack Schaap look minimal. (For the record, Jack Schaap is now serving time in a federal prison).

I hope the Texas authorities do their job. (Not a given; Texas seems to have way more than their share of strange religious groups, and IMO goes to the extreme to not get involved if they can avoid it).

I wouldn't say that Texas always avoids getting involved with religious whackjob groups, but I will concede that there are times that when the state does interfere, the results are decidedly mixed.

One example includes the raiding of the Yearning for Zion FLDS ranch in 2008. Hundreds of children were removed from the ranch and evaluated for signs of abuse, but when it was determined that the whole affair would cost CPS billions in the years to come, the children were quietly returned to their abusers. Another involves the David Koresh case, which ended with the FBI engaging in a standoff with the members of the Branch Davidian Ranch in Waco. Attorney General Janet Reno made the decision that the cult members who had barricaded themselves inside the ranch should be removed by force. During the final assault on the ranch, one wing of it caught fire, and numerous people died. The circumstances behind how the fire began and if more lives could have been saved during the assault is still being disputed to this day.

A final incident involves Ervil LeBaron, polygamist leader of The church of the Lamb of the Blood, who ordered numerous "religiously motivated" murders, including his brother Joel, who led his own opposing polygamous church. Texas did successfully collude with Mexico in LeBaron's capture and sentencing, but it didn't put an end to the church or the madness that LeBaron created. Ervil left behind a list of people that he wanted dead, and these attacks were later carried out by his descendants. The next generation of cult insanity included the fact that these same descendents regularly took it in turns to kill one other. (last part not related to Texas' handling of the case, but still a clusterfuck regardless)

Anyway, back to the topic of Doug Philips, who is definitely much worse than a tool. I've mostly been lurking on this thread, but I agree that the name of his victim should be witheld when it is discovered. She definitely shouldn't have to have her name dragged into this. People have different ideas about where the line is and how it should be crossed when it comes to learning more about his crimes, but I personally think that if anyone finds out anything definitive, the authorities need to be notified, full stop. If he is a rapist, then Philips doesn't deserve to be protected, even by those in his inner circle who are still faithful to him. What he deserves is to be held publically accountable for his crimes and to face the consequences. He needs to be imprisoned.

*sources from Wiki*

[DarkAnts]

We dont need to know the name of the girl. I think that will put a greater burden on her. Having her name all over the internet will just bring on a new level of pain and shame.

[debrand]

Wow. Even Mike Farris is throwing Doug under the bus.

Mike Farris Doug Phillips was NOT the architect of the HR 6 fight in 1994. He was a foot soldier. I know he has been telling this story for years but it is just another example of his tendency to exaggerate his role in everything.

November 1 at 1:32am · Like · 9

https://www.facebook.com/HomeschoolersA ... omments=31

I found the quote through a comment on Wartburg Watch not by using my own sleuth skills. Don't want you all to think that I am far smarter than I am.

[anjulibai]

So it occurred to me that Doug Phillips is a Tool may not have been lying when he said he didn't know the woman "biblically".

Since they are Quiverfull, presumably Doug would refuse to use a condom and woman would not know how prevent a pregnancy. Doubtful that she'd have an abortion, too. That might be just crossing to much of a line for these types.

So, maybe they left whatever they did to non-procreative acts so she wouldn't get pregnant. I mean, what would be the odds of her being infertile? Relatively small. We do know that he isn't. If they'd actually had vaginal sex, it's highly likely she would have gotten pregnant years ago and this would have come out somehow sooner.

So, just a thought.

[dawbs]

Denial is a powerful, powerful thing. As is faith in people you like.

I will say, once upon a time, I was involved in an 'inappropriate relationship'. He could say, for a long time, that he was filling another role. I could say for a long time that I was filling another role. My own internal denial, coupled with the fact that people liked both of us-(including his wife and coworkers and friends) let things come to a crappy head before anyone really pointed out that we were being inappropriate. And when they did, there was a lot of "oh, yeah, all of this stuff we were turning a lbind eye to because we liked/trusted them was problematic" to go around.

I can imagine that The Tool's wife was trying to give her husband the benefit of the doubt, was eaten up with "am I just unreasonable and jealous?", and was so busy with her brood and with deferring to the exalted tool that she didn't ask much.

I can imagine that the girl in question may have been giving her employer and idol the benefit of the doubt and justifying the attentions as father like and being eaten up with 'quit being so vain and shallow, it's immodest, of course he doesn't mean it like that!' that has been instilled in young SAHDs and being in self-denial until things went to very explicit.

I can imagine his children and colleagues falling into similar traps.

The human mind is terribly and wonderfully gullible to what we *want* to believe.

[SamuraiKatz]

That article actually causes me to feel a great deal of pain for the young woman. The entire system that Vision Forum follows seems set up to create potential victims for abusers who claim to be godly.

Am I wrong in saying that the victim's entire family worked for the Phillips' in some capacity. I found an old thread on the first Free Jinger site has some posts about the Phillip's nanny.

http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/7565#.UoTU5xqbP3w

[Edited by hoipolloi to remove direct link to VF material]

Thanks for the yuku link. Provided some corroborating info... Doug is a Tool's alleged victim would now be 27-29/30.

[apple1]

Not sure if the word "accomplices" fits but it seems hard to believe that a number of people -- Beall, at least a few interns, loyalists like Perry C. -- did NOT know about this given Doug Phillips Is A Tool penchant for ordering & expecting others to do his bidding.

BTW - please don't link directly to VF's websites. Per our FAQ:

Besides the above, we KNOW that VF spends an inordinate amount of capital on scrubbing its websites & generally revising history, so let's not give them more to do!

I do not believe that I have posted any unbroken links.

[apple1]

So it occurred to me that Doug Phillips is a Tool may not have been lying when he said he didn't know the woman "biblically".

Since they are Quiverfull, presumably Doug would refuse to use a condom and woman would not know how prevent a pregnancy. Doubtful that she'd have an abortion, too. That might be just crossing to much of a line for these types.

So, maybe they left whatever they did to non-procreative acts so she wouldn't get pregnant. I mean, what would be the odds of her being infertile? Relatively small. We do know that he isn't. If they'd actually had vaginal sex, it's highly likely she would have gotten pregnant years ago and this would have come out somehow sooner.

So, just a thought.

To play devil's advocate, Doug willingly disregarded the mandate to be faithful to his wife. So why would we think that he wouldn't also disregard other professed beliefs?

[WonderingInWA]

To play devil's advocate, Doug willingly disregarded the mandate to be faithful to his wife. So why would we think that he wouldn't also disregard other professed beliefs?

I tend to agree. I don't think he'd risk conceiving a child with his victim and I also don't for a moment believe he didn't have PtV sex with her, so there was probably some kind of birth control going on there. If it went on for 6-10 years (there seems to be a range of reports), I don't think he could have stayed with just heavy petting.

[snickerz]

Public Service Announcement: Please preserve anything you don't want scrubbed by saving it in the wayback machine. (http://archive.org/web/) - there's a "save page now" button in the lower right.

[nokidsmom]

Thank you , Morton Fan! I was able to watch it. No new clues.

I'm feeling vindictive. Some have theorized that DP will be able to cut a deal for the 6,000-sq-ft (can you IMAGINE?) house and buy it from Leininger/VFI, whatever. Without wishing the uninvolved children any ill, I rather hope they have to move into something more modest (I'll leave out the details). Why? Because perhaps it would demonstrate to the kids: What our patriarch did was wrong, and crime does not pay, and life in the mainstream beats this con game anytime. I know....but I can dream.

MJB, I hear you. While I don't wish the kids any more ill than what they have been and will be dealing with, I also thought that Dougie having to move out of the house would be very tangible demonstration that wrongs done by others have some far reaching consequences even to innocent loved ones. A tough but important life lesson.

Though, big house or no, they will still have to deal with the knowledge of what their dad did and being VF pariahs. Because unfortunately, there's going to be people who will take out their anger and feelings of betrayal on them.

[Closed Womb]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but has it been confirmed it was the nanny?

I've been keeping up with it; unless I have misread something, it sounds like the nanny theory is still just conjecture at this point. I am somewhat concerned that people are reading Jen's Gems or even here and considering that proof enough (the insider information) to consider it fact.

While I certainly wish no good thing for Doug Phillips (is a tool), I haven't read anything that would allow me to say with any level of certainty that he was in a relationship with someone underage (or in an incestuous relationship, another theory brought forth.) I really, really, really hope his indiscretion(s) are with adults and/or have nothing to do with personal relationships.

[Shoobydoo]

I have a selfish request-- when we have threads where large numbers of names are redacted, can we please come up with some kind of nicknaming system? Like, instead of "redacted" have it say "teddybear" or "baby duck" or whatever. When there's a whole long thread with redacteds peppered throughout it makes it really hard for people who were late to the game to read the thread because there's no way to tell whether any given post is talking about one person or a different person and it makes NO sense whatsoever.

Thinking about it again before I post, it would be really hard if not impossible to create that kind of system, but I still think that just putting "redacted" makes some of these threads totally unreadable. It would be nice if we could come with with some kind of alternative.

Doug Phillips is a tool.

[nokidsmom]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that some of the older kids likely knew their dad was doing whatever he was doing, as did the wife. HOw much they ignored it or helped hide it probably varies. My FIL tended to be a serial cheater from the time my husband was a kid. The oldest brother ignored it... even as an adult. The second brother worked with the father a lot, and met first hand some of the girlfriends in the role of girlfriend, from the time he was a late teen until he was in his 40s... and didn't "tell" until he was in his 40s. Hub's sister and mother "knew" but were willing to be dissuaded by the father when the mom confronted him, though the sister was ready for her mom's divorce before the mother was. My husband followed his dad when he was 16, to prove to himself what was going on....that and other reasons put him firmly on his mother's side. Even after my mother in law hired investigators to prove it to herself, when I mentioned we'd all known of the affairs, she said-- why didn't you tell me. I told her-- I knew because YOU told me!. So there are a lot of mental acrobatics within the family when this is going on.

So, yes, there may have been some telling and some real and pretended shock (both at the actions and at the acknowledgement) it was not likely a complete suprise (whatever "it" was) to Beall or some if not all of the older children... Just my observation about life.

Good points about all the "mental acrobatics" that can go amongst the family members when a parent engages in affairs. Denial is a powerful thing.

Also add to this sitch with Dougie besides patriarchy, is his deified status and extremely sheltered people all around him.

[debrand]

I've been keeping up with it; unless I have misread something, it sounds like the nanny theory is still just conjecture at this point. I am somewhat concerned that people are reading Jen's Gems or even here and considering that proof enough (the insider information) to consider it fact.

While I certainly wish no good thing for Doug Phillips (is a tool), I haven't read anything that would allow me to say with any level of certainty that he was in a relationship with someone underage (or in an incestuous relationship, another theory brought forth.) I really, really, really hope his indiscretion(s) are with adults and/or have nothing to do with personal relationships.

Because of the age and vulnerability of the assumed victim, I hope that we are wrong and that Doug had an affair with the middle aged wife of a close associate. It would make me beyond happy if it was Michelle Duggar instead.

[nokidsmom]

Because of the age and vulnerability of the assumed victim, I hope that we are wrong and that Doug had an affair with the middle aged wife of a close associate. It would make me beyond happy if it was Michelle Duggar instead.

Same here.

[Bookworm]

I was happy to have yet another patriarchal leader exposed as a total fraud and jackass, in hopes that it will cause many to learn some critical thinking and start living healthier and happier lives. It's starting to make me sick to read about this situation, though. I keep thinking about a family I knew back in my early teens, that was quite wealthy, but whose "patriarch" I thoroughly disliked. At the time I was rather jealous of the kids for having so much fun stuff, including tons of VF goodies, but the older I've gotten the more I've suspected some seriously bad stuff happened in that family. I don't know of any way to help my former friends from that family or from a couple of other fucked-up fundie familes, so I really really hope that if Dougie did indeed prey on a young woman, that somehow she will be able to get wise and caring help.

And, it makes me RED-HOT angry to keep reading comments from Doug-defenders on Wartburg Watch and similar places where they talk smarmily of "Christians shooting their wounded," yadayada. Um, YEAH. Only, YOU are the ones shooting wounded lambs by defending a predator!

I'm so glad for places like FJ.