Hazards of teaching kids to obey adults without question

[Curious]

A couple days ago I watched the movie Compliance (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1971352/?ref_=nv_sr_1). I had been interested in this movie, which I knew was based on true events ever since I had seen the Law and Order:SVU episode with Robin Williams that was also based on the real life events and read about the movie in Fangoria.

So a friend and I watched it together (on the phone). Right from the start, we both could not believe that anyone could be so stupid as to believe the situation that was happening and to do the things that were being asked. During the movie, I started googling about it because neither of us could believe that the real life event was really as bad as it was being portrayed in the move.

I found some comments that said the movie actually made the manager and her boyfriend look better than they were in real life and my friend and I found this completely unbelievable because the movie did not do them much in the way of favors.

We have been talking about the movie off and on since we watched it. One of those, suddenly you just say "and another thing, wouldn't xxx make you go wait a minute!" type things. So yesterday when I got online, my friend had found an interview that the manager and victim had done (there was a lawsuit, naturally). Much to our surprise, the comments were correct and the movie *did* make the manager and her boyfriend look better :evil-eye:

Here is a link that describes that history of the real life incidents and gives quite a bit of detail about the specific incident in the movie. I don't really think this is a movie that will be ruined by knowing this information. I knew the whole story and still "enjoyed" the movie (I'm not really sure what adjective to use there to indicate the movie was not ruined by knowing the whole story).

This link also gives a bunch of other links to various articles regarding the lawsuits and other follow ups etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_sear ... _call_scam

So that was the background, now to the point of my post. At the time of the incident, the victim was 18. The things that happened to her were pretty horrible.

She was kept in the office of the McDonald's where she worked for 3 or so hours. Most of that time she was buck naked, but for a dirty McDonald's apron. During that time, she was strip searched by the (female manager), the manager's fiance (who had been drinking with a buddy all evening before he was called in to watch her) and 2 other men had been called into the room to watch her at various times, but both of them had the good sense to say they were not going to strip search her. The manager's fiance spent the most time in the tiny office with the victim, 2 hours. During that time, following the instructions given by the "officer" on the phone, he made her remove the apron and dance and do jumping jacks. He ordered her to insert her fingers into her vagina and show him her genital cavity so he could make sure she was not hiding any money up there (that did not fall out during the dancing/jumping jacks). He ordered her to sit on his lap and kiss him and when she refused he put her over his knee and spanked her for 10 minutes (you read that right...10 fucking minutes) until she gave in and promised to comply. Finally, he made her preform oral sex on him.

All the above (and her entire imprisonment) was recorded on the security camera in the office, so there is basically no question as to what happened. There is no audio, but the actions were all recorded.

Here is the interview my friend found. It includes footage from the security camera. The question that my friend had (and keeps asking) and also I saw a lot comments at various sites saying and even the interviewer asked the victim: Why didn't you run? Why didn't you question things? Various versions of the same type of questions. Some people even blaming this 18 year old girl because she "allowed" this horrible incident to happen to her.

After I watched the interview, this is what stood out to me (starting at 6:30):

My parents taught me when an adult tells you to do something, that's what you do. You don't argue. Someone smacks you on the hand, you listen.

UFXeXK3szOk

I said to my friends that were talking about the incident that this is one of the big problems with fundies raising their kids to blindly obey without question (I do not know this girl's background, but I would not be surprised to find out it was fundie lite. She mentions the hand smacking, but no one had used any physical punishment with her at the beginning when she started complying. It made me immediately think of the result of blanket training). This girl was sodomized because she was taught to do what adults tell you to do without arguing.

Now, I think that is more to it than that. The whole situation is bad and by the time some of the stuff happened, I'm sure she was completely checked out and just in survival mode. However, even at 18 there is no way you would have been able to strip search me. I would have said call my parents. Let the police take me to jail because I didn't do anything wrong. I would have argued my ass off against a strip search because that is freaking insanity. It would have taken an army to get me naked in a fast food restaurant office in front of my manager's significant other. I was not raised to blindly obey though.

As an aside, the fact that people just blindly comply with a voice on the phone because he says he is a police officer was equally scary to me. There were about 100 things that made me ask "that did not send up a red flag." The fact that people that stupid exist makes me want to never leave my house again. I also wanted to punch that manager in the face over her smug/smarmy attitude in the interview.

[shrewlu]

This is exactly why I've raised my son to ask questions. Granted, there have been times it has come back to bite me in the ass, like when I ask him to take out the garbage and he questions me, but in general, I think that being able to ask questions, even being able to question authority is a good skill to have. Of course, you have to know when to ask the questions, but I'd much rather have a kid that speaks up than one that will do whatever someone tells him to do.

This particular case horrified me. I just can't imagine why anyone would do that to someone else.

[formergothardite]

That is horrifying. My parents weren't the severe disciplinarians like many of the fundies we read about, but they were still big on having kids not question adults and do what they are told immediately. I know it drives my parents crazy that I don't just tell my kids what to do I explain why I want them to do things and let them ask questions. It took me a while when I got into the real world to realize that I didn't have to do things just because they were an authority figure.

There is a Gothard song that goes something like this:

"I will show appreciation to my authorities.

I will write them notes of gratefulness for all they do for me."

It wasn't enough to just follow orders you had to be grateful and write thank you notes.

[ILoveJellybeans]

That is horrible :(

Telling a child that they must obey everything adults do immediately and without question is dangerous. Its making them vulnerable to be taken advantage of.

[Arete]

I feel sick. :shock:

[happy atheist]

Poor poor Donna! I feel so badly that she was duped! :angry-banghead:

What an awful, awful woman. The only time she showed any emotion was when she felt sorry for herself.

[Jana814]

That is horrible :(

Telling a child that they must obey everything adults do immediately and without question is dangerous. Its making them vulnerable to be taken advantage of.

Agree! Do religious people not tell their kids that if something does not feel right tell someone!

[singsingsing]

What the ever loving fuck?! I had not heard about any of this until now. How could so many people be so blindly trusting and follow such outrageous demands? I'm talking about the people who conducted the 'searches' not the young women who were victimized. But, while I'm not blaming those young women at all, I am seriously disturbed that they felt they could not say no to this. If my boss told me a police officer was on the phone and we had to go into a back room so he could strip search me, I'd call bullshit, walk out, and then call the actual police. When girls are raised to have no self respect and no self confidence, horrible things happen.

[thoughtful]

Agree! Do religious people not tell their kids that if something does not feel right tell someone!

I suspect that most religious people are as good or bad about it as anyone else, but I don't know about fundies.

The Pearls, of all people, make a big deal about it.

http://www.amazon.com/Samuel-Learns-Yel ... 1616440163

http://www.amazon.com/Sara-Sue-Learns-Y ... 1616440171

And they do it with fun coloring pages and everything! :shock:

http://www.yellandtellbooks.com/

Of course, they assume all predators will be from outside the family.

So, it's interesting to imagine what their kids and grandkids think about obeying "an authority figure" to the point of submitting to harm. I suspect that they'd obey anything asked of them from someone labeled an authority in their tiny world (after all, they are whipped practically from birth, and submit to that), but be suspicious, even strong and resistant, to a police officer, government official, or stranger who claims to be an authority.

I'd be curious to know what they'd do if it was someone on the phone, as in this incident, who knew how to talk the Pearl talk.

[LittleMama]

Wow. Recently we have gotten some harsh comments from older parents (and local church members) about our children. It came up when someone told my daughter to do something and she just looked at them. I was there quick enough to see it and explained that we teach our children to only obey our authority and no one else, unless we tell them "Mrs H is going to to watch you for a bit. Listen to her respectfully for us." We also tell them that if anyone says or asks something strange to tell us righ away. Well that did not go over well, as apparently we were then emailed about how to raise our children to listen properly. I simply told them that my husband works for a juvenile detention campus and knows too many kids who are victimized and then become attackers themselves, and little children need to know they have a voice and it will be heard. It is far to easy to abuse children with the way lifestyles are today.

[Kailash]

I was afraid to open this thread for fear of what I would read. Ugh. Sadly, I know a girl who was raised fundy who I could see this happening to, based on things I know she endured because of her religion and views of authority. Disgusting and terribly sad.

[Koala]

Wow. Recently we have gotten some harsh comments from older parents (and local church members) about our children. It came up when someone told my daughter to do something and she just looked at them. I was there quick enough to see it and explained that we teach our children to only obey our authority and no one else, unless we tell them "Mrs H is going to to watch you for a bit. Listen to her respectfully for us." We also tell them that if anyone says or asks something strange to tell us righ away. Well that did not go over well, as apparently we were then emailed about how to raise our children to listen properly. I simply told them that my husband works for a juvenile detention campus and knows too many kids who are victimized and then become attackers themselves, and little children need to know they have a voice and it will be heard. It is far to easy to abuse children with the way lifestyles are today.

You owe them no explanation at all, and any such email would have raised HUGE GLARING red flags for me. Seriously, tell them to fuck off and mind their own business.

[Jana814]

You owe them no explanation at all, and any such email would have raised HUGE GLARING red flags for me. Seriously, tell them to fuck off and mind their own business.

Your poor child!! U r doing the right thing!! Why would they be mad @ u for how u raise your kids!! More parents need to be they way u are.

[2xx1xy1JD]

This is a horrible story, but it's just once example of where unquestioning obedience to authority leads.

I'd love to give a copy of Eichmann in Jerusalem to everyone who reads To Train Up a Child or any other obedience-oriented fundie parenting advice.

[Pam]

Wow. Recently we have gotten some harsh comments from older parents (and local church members) about our children. It came up when someone told my daughter to do something and she just looked at them. I was there quick enough to see it and explained that we teach our children to only obey our authority and no one else, unless we tell them "Mrs H is going to to watch you for a bit. Listen to her respectfully for us." We also tell them that if anyone says or asks something strange to tell us righ away. Well that did not go over well, as apparently we were then emailed about how to raise our children to listen properly. I simply told them that my husband works for a juvenile detention campus and knows too many kids who are victimized and then become attackers themselves, and little children need to know they have a voice and it will be heard. It is far to easy to abuse children with the way lifestyles are today.

And I've no doubt that the call for obedience to authority is impressed upon and judged far more harshly with girls than boys, seeing as girls must be brought up to be weak, compliant, obedient wives, lest they turn out to be.... <gasp!!>.... harpy feminist shrews.

[bananacat]

Actually, people are extremely prone to obey authority, and most of you would have "fallen" for the prank call just like the people at McDonald's, regardless of your upbringing. There have been many experiments about this, the most famous of which is the [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment]Milgrim experiment[/link]. Human psychology is fascinating, and none of us are as rational as we think we are. I volunteered as an usher at a concert recently, and it was quite amazing how willing people were to listen to anything I said just because I had a cheap pin on my shirt that said "usher".

There are things we can do as a society to make this type of abuse less frequent, but we're all prone to it. When we're already starting with this foundation it's quite easy for fundies to take it much further with their children.

[Khan]

Wow. I find it hard to comprehend how anyone can immediately trust a random caller claiming to be a police officer. We do need to teach our kids to think for themselves but in a common sense way. Constantly questioning your boss is going to get you fired.

[FloraKitty35]

This is a horrible story, but it's just once example of where unquestioning obedience to authority leads.

I'd love to give a copy of Eichmann in Jerusalem to everyone who reads To Train Up a Child or any other obedience-oriented fundie parenting advice.

I like that idea. It has one small flaw. The same people that read TTUAC would probably view Eichmann in Jerusalem as an inspirational tale. :pull-hair: :angry-banghead:

[gardenvarietycitizen]

...Of course, they assume all predators will be from outside the family.

And this is scary too - you get cases like the murder of poor Leiby Kletzky in Brooklyn, he got lost and was raised to believe he can trust people wearing the clothing of his subgroup (Hasidic Jews), no distrust there, only distrust of outsiders but surely someone in our community must be safe, right? and he has the bad luck to run into a murderous person from his community, ends up dismembered in a suitcase AFTER spending about a day and a half with the guy.

I just don't even know.

[thoughtful]

And this is scary too

Oh, yeah -- that was my point, in fact. The combination of obeying automatically, and assuming that people from your group are safe, can be devastating.

[happy atheist]

Actually, people are extremely prone to obey authority, and most of you would have "fallen" for the prank call just like the people at McDonald's, regardless of your upbringing. There have been many experiments about this, the most famous of which is the [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment]Milgrim experiment[/link]. Human psychology is fascinating, and none of us are as rational as we think we are. I volunteered as an usher at a concert recently, and it was quite amazing how willing people were to listen to anything I said just because I had a cheap pin on my shirt that said "usher".

There are things we can do as a society to make this type of abuse less frequent, but we're all prone to it. When we're already starting with this foundation it's quite easy for fundies to take it much further with their children.

But in this case, 2 of the people the manager brought into the room called bullshit.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Actually, people are extremely prone to obey authority, and most of you would have "fallen" for the prank call just like the people at McDonald's, regardless of your upbringing. There have been many experiments about this, the most famous of which is the [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment]Milgrim experiment[/link]. Human psychology is fascinating, and none of us are as rational as we think we are. I volunteered as an usher at a concert recently, and it was quite amazing how willing people were to listen to anything I said just because I had a cheap pin on my shirt that said "usher".

There are things we can do as a society to make this type of abuse less frequent, but we're all prone to it. When we're already starting with this foundation it's quite easy for fundies to take it much further with their children.

You're right that this isn't just about individual failures (although those played a role too). It's about a mindset, shaped by society and culture.

Many people would obey authority, but it's not taught to all groups to the same extent. Different cultural, political and religious cultures will treat obedience in different ways. In "Outliers", Malcolm Gladwell talks about this and how it affects things like the rate of airplane crashes (because preventing one sometimes means that you need to confront the pilot or the air traffic controllers and say, "We're going to crash if you don't do something NOW").

In the 1960s, you had the Eichmann trial with its notorious "I was just following orders" defense, you had widespread publicity of the Milgram experiment, you had the baby boomers getting older and hitting their late teens, and the result was a growing tendency to question authority. People were willing to march for civil rights, or to protest the Vietnam War. I was raised with a "question authority" mindset, and it was really only as an adult that I realized that this wasn't true for everyone else.

American fundies, at the leadership level, know all this. They basically came along, declared that society had become too liberal and chaotic and therefore evil, and said that we need to embrace old-fashioned value - which comes with the risks of returning to the very things that initially horrified people into abandoning automatic obedience.

[LittleMama]

You're right that this isn't just about individual failures (although those played a role too). It's about a mindset, shaped by society and culture.

Many people would obey authority, but it's not taught to all groups to the same extent. Different cultural, political and religious cultures will treat obedience in different ways. In "Outliers", Malcolm Gladwell talks about this and how it affects things like the rate of airplane crashes (because preventing one sometimes means that you need to confront the pilot or the air traffic controllers and say, "We're going to crash if you don't do something NOW").

In the 1960s, you had the Eichmann trial with its notorious "I was just following orders" defense, you had widespread publicity of the Milgram experiment, you had the baby boomers getting older and hitting their late teens, and the result was a growing tendency to question authority. People were willing to march for civil rights, or to protest the Vietnam War. I was raised with a "question authority" mindset, and it was really only as an adult that I realized that this wasn't true for everyone else.

American fundies, at the leadership level, know all this. They basically came along, declared that society had become too liberal and chaotic and therefore evil, and said that we need to embrace old-fashioned value - which comes with the risks of returning to the very things that initially horrified people into abandoning automatic obedience.

Thanks for the supportive comments guys. :)

Back when I worked at a non-profit we discussed an issue like this during our fundraising time. We talked about how the older generation used to hear something like "Give to the Salvation Army" and just assumed it was "pro-USA/pro-charity/honest" and would give. Now my generation asks questions. Sure, we might be considered a more selfish generation, but those who do give are very picky (more than other generations) of who and what gets their money. Especially with all the "text-a-dollar" scams that happened during natural disasters that never saw people who needed it. It is an all around weariness which is some instances is good, and in some may hurt relationships.

Also it is one thing to trust someone saying "Fire!" or "Watch out!" and another to trust someone saying "Do this (enter questionable or abusive act) because I said so", which is how this seemed to be. Like everyone said, so many red flags.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Good point about mundane vs. red flag requests.

Following an usher at a concert makes sense. I've even seen people follow directions from civilians who get to emergencies or direct traffic before police arrive. Some degree of following rules prevents anarchy and chaos.

Questioning authority that goes too far is different.

[Conuly]

thoughtful wrote:

...Of course, they assume all predators will be from outside the family.

And this is scary too - you get cases like the murder of poor Leiby Kletzky in Brooklyn, he got lost and was raised to believe he can trust people wearing the clothing of his subgroup (Hasidic Jews), no distrust there, only distrust of outsiders but surely someone in our community must be safe, right? and he has the bad luck to run into a murderous person from his community, ends up dismembered in a suitcase AFTER spending about a day and a half with the guy.

I just don't even know.

Yeah, but that's such a weird, weird case. Even by the standards of child murders, didn't he kill that kid because he hadn't realized beforehand that not returning him to his folks immediately could get him in trouble, and because it was too much of a hassle to return him a day late? Something like that? Who does that? Other than not returning him, maybe the guy didn't give off any weird signals at all.

At any rate, we can all agree that had he asked just about anybody else for help that day, he'd be home safe right now.