Kelly C. thinks she has a unique idea

[Hisey]

Kelly is on one of her anti-school tirades, and is posting about how she doesn't teach long division. Why? Because you can just use a calculator.

She congratulates herself about this. Apparently, she thinks that no educator, anywhere, has ever thought of removing an antiquated subject off their curriculum.

Do we ever tilt our heads and look and things with fresh eyes, asking questions that no one else is asking, considering that “what everyone else is doing†may not be the best thing?

This interests me because my fourth-grader studied cursive last year, and now I find she is also studying it this year. Last year's teacher apologized at back-to-school night, saying that she knows our kids will hardly ever use cursive, but they still feel it is important to teach it. I'm not sure why they are teaching it this year too (it is a different school, so that might explain it).

Anyhow, whether or not it's good to teach cursive, it is clear to me that school administrators are certainly thinking about whether it is useful, and have decided that it is. Why does Kelly think that asking such questions is so unique, so special, so unusual that it would never occur to educators (because they are so dumb)?

I suppose opinions may differ, but I think long division is important. Often I do long division with a pencil, when a calculator isn't around. And I sure wouldn't want to be the only grownup on my job who didn't know how to divide (or who didn't fully understand the concept, because my mom decided it wasn't important to study).

For that matter, Kelly, why learn anything at all, when most everything is available on google? Why not be an ignorant adult who just googles things she doesn't understand? Of course, you really can't google the idea of division and get a quick answer--it's more of a concept that needs some study in order to understand.

[Guest]

She's obviously an innovator.

Can we please talk about how this logic is completely incompatible with biblical fundamentalism, as well as the gender roles that these fundies hold so dear? Long division? So 1997, our kids don't need to learn that. King James Bible? Better memorize it!

[Megan]

Cursive teaches coordination as well as, you know, writing that style. It's a good skill to know and, once you are familiar with the letters, not that difficult to read or write. Add in that most Latin alphabet cursive letters look pretty similar to their print counterparts and it isn't that bad.

Long division seems like a no-brainer to me. What if you don't have a calculator? Or your calculator dies?

Honestly, I'd feel pretty ridiculous pulling out a calculator for division unless it's really strange numbers. And being comfortable with basic math is important for higher levels.

[CelticGoddess]

Cursive teaches coordination as well as, you know, writing that style. It's a good skill to know and, once you are familiar with the letters, not that difficult to read or write. Add in that most Latin alphabet cursive letters look pretty similar to their print counterparts and it isn't that bad.

Long division seems like a no-brainer to me. What if you don't have a calculator? Or your calculator dies?

Honestly, I'd feel pretty ridiculous pulling out a calculator for division unless it's really strange numbers. And being comfortable with basic math is important for higher levels.

When I took College Algebra, 6 years ago, was not allowed to use a calculator except for two tests. The graphing functions tests we could use the calculator but the others, we had to do the arithmetic in our heads with scratch paper. Had we not been taught basic maths, we would have been screwed.

My son, who is autistic, learned cursive in 1st grade, mainly to keep him occupied. By teaching him to write cursive (this was actually during occupation therapy), he also tapped into his artistic leanings. The school found out he was a great copier (he can see calligraphy and copy it without being taught) and how artistic he is. Teaching children cursive can open doors that might be missed!

[NotALoserLikeYou]

When I took College Algebra, 6 years ago, was not allowed to use a calculator except for two tests. The graphing functions tests we could use the calculator but the others, we had to do the arithmetic in our heads with scratch paper. Had we not been taught basic maths, we would have been screwed.

My son, who is autistic, learned cursive in 1st grade, mainly to keep him occupied. By teaching him to write cursive (this was actually during occupation therapy), he also tapped into his artistic leanings. The school found out he was a great copier (he can see calligraphy and copy it without being taught) and how artistic he is. Teaching children cursive can open doors that might be missed!

Right, and when I took college algebra last year we had to do some funky algebraic long division. So these skills were good to have. Of course she doesn't believe in college so...

[jaynie]

I recently had an exam in which I forgot a calculator, and as a result had to do square roots by hand. Not pleasant by any means but I get bragging rights at least! Couldn't have done that if my teachers had thought basic math unnecessary.

I think actually quite a lot of people question what is really necessary to teach children. The problem is, most of them base it entirely on what they have or have not used in their own lives - as if we don't all need different skills for our different life paths. But I guess if you're raising gods army, you don't need to worry that your daughters might miss a chance at becoming theoretical physicists...

[ohnomoe]

I went to school in the 90's and we didn't learn long division. Hardly a groundbreaking revelation.

I was even one of those kids who did end up needing it to do integration using partial fractions but who knew that it takes all of 5 minutes to learn as part of a technique when you are older?!

[samithemage]

I always assumed that long division was taught, not just in case the calculator broke, but to understand the fundamental principles behind division. Plugging something into a calculator is not the same as understanding how a mathematical principle works.

[bluelady]

I always assumed that long division was taught, not just in case the calculator broke, but to understand the fundamental principles behind division. Plugging something into a calculator is not the same as understanding how a mathematical principle works.

This, exactly.

She doesn't have a unique idea. She's actually jumping on a trend that's been around for a number of years now. I can't speak for other areas, but where I am (Canada), the kids graduating now have gone through their entire school careers in schools where rote memorization of their multiplication tables and learning algorithms and formulas were considered bad. They were taught these basic skills using tricks and tips that were designed to teach them a greater understanding of the why behind long division, for example. The result? An entire generation of kids who have a very bare-bones understanding of basic math facts. So this unique idea of hers? It's so bad that many school boards are taking a step back and saying, Well, that didn't work.

And, as a junior high math teacher, I can tell you that it DOES hurt their ability to understand more complex math problems. I've taken to devoting the first ten minutes of every class to mental math and basic math facts - things that are not in my curriculum but that they struggle with.

[teachergirl]

yeah..I am a public school teacher and every time I read something of hers I want go down to AL and throw down with her.

I teach basic math facts all of the time and her brand of homeschooling scares me. I wonder if in 10 years we will see them learn nothing but bible verses and recipe reading. After all, what do they need "school" for?

One other thing that irritates me is that yes, public schools have issues BUT we do so many things for ALL children well.

We feed them, tutor them, refer them to medical clinics, counsel them and teach them. She implies that we keep kids prisoner, don't teach them and turn out little robots. I like to think I am helping to shape their development and am one piece of a very large puzzle in their lives.

[Evilbad]

I had to know how to do basic math and division when I was a cashier because.....gasp.....computers and registers break! I sometimes wonder if I'm too hard on my son, making him learn grammar and writing skills by writing with a pen and paper and using a dictionary to look up words, but you know what? I don't care. My kid will likely get hired before her kids due to the fact that he has basic literacy, grammar, and math skills. And I'm sad about that, in a way.

I work in a govt position now doing all sorts of management things, and one of those skills I have to know is MATH! because I just did up a budget for the new fiscal year. And I need basic grammar and literacy skills because EMAILS AND OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS.

I hate people who put no value on education beyond JESUS. Fuck.

[browngrl]

I think that memorization of multiplication tables, the basics of adding/subtracting/multiplication AND division are fundamental to understanding math and by extension to understanding the use of math in any of the sciences. If you know the basics then if you come up against a novel problem you can go back to first principles and reason things out. Of course a motivated student can learn math (and by extension the sciences) at any age and without a teacher but it will be a steep and brutal learning curve for all but the gifted. It is just so much easier for everyone if math (and really anything) is introduced gradually by a good teacher.

I think I get upset when I see these huge gaps in education because I want everyone to have the power to think and make their own decisions. Fundies don't seem to want the same. For them it is all "obey" and "submit". If that is your goal then it is ever so much easier if you keep the people you want to follow/submit/obey as ignorant as possible. If someone can't think for themselves then they are much more likely to swallow whatever crap you are serving.

Kelly like to say she is educating but what she is really doing is training future cult members. She has all the key things in place to keep up her cult: deprivation/hardship (two chicken breasts anyone?) - followed by the belief that survivors are the "chosen" ones (according to Kelly and her ilk - Jesus only likes people who follow her ideas), isolation and control of information(why stop at division - why not cut out more). It is the fundie dream education.

[ThatSnark]

Kelly, you dumb cow. If no one had updated curriculum, we'd all still be learning slide rules. As such, computers are taught in school, along with many other technology-assisted subjects. That still doesn't excuse students from learning basic math facts.

Aside from the fact that it's important to know how to manipulate numbers, it's very difficult to teach math theory without an understanding of how some of the more advanced operations work. I doubt her children will be in advanced calculus, but it's pretty naive to expect a kid to understand derivations by whipping out a calculator. It simply doesn't work that way.

Math was extremely difficult for me. I needed to work hard at it and understand exactly what was happening in order to "get it." I feel sorry for her kids and any Kelly-disciple kids who feel like they now get a pass to stop at 3rd grade math. It's as important as verbal literacy in having a well-rounded education, but I realize we're not dealing with someone who values quality-- just Jesus.

[musicmommy]

Ugh! I really wish Kelly would just stop. She is giving homeschooling such a bad reputation! Sure, it is easier to just hand the kid a calculator and show them how to do it. There are days I consider doing that, especially with my youngest who is very math challenged, but we just keep on. It's important to me that my children truly understand the reasons behind things working the way they do. We use a couple of different math curricula because they present concepts differently. In addition, every day, the kids are doing mental math and/or "speedy" math.

As for some of those other long lost topics such of cursive? Yep, those get covered also. It's kind of a zen activity though. We put on some quiet music and practice cursive for about 10 minutes. Very calming.

Really, there are some of us who homeschool that actually do educate our children. We just don't have the time to blog about it because, well, we're busy educating our children!

One last thing. I used to work in the schools and know plenty of teachers. They are constantly looking at what they can be doing better for their students. It frustrates me when homeschoolers bash on those teachers.

[polecat]

I teach my kids long division because I want them to learn the processes behind math. They aren't going to learn that with a calculator. I also teach cursive starting in second grade. Learning cursive actually does have benefits for children, according to recent studies.

[Hane]

I'm from the old memorizing-math-facts generation. I was never brilliant at math, but these things stuck. I find myself adding numbers and coming up with the correct sum in writing seconds before the calculation has "clicked" in my head--it's become so automatic.

Someone my age had a brilliant nun teach him math in grade school. She taught the kids "mental math," and they had math bees. What a great skill to learn!

[docmom]

My kids go to a progressive ebil liberal private school. They learn cursive, they memorize tables and they do lots of long division. They also make videos, grow vegetables in the organic garden, keep bees and work together to make mini-marshmallow and sphagetti towers. Their teachers have spent a great deal of time and energy in building a curriculum that prepares children to become lifelong learners. And that, dear Kelly C, means that you can't skimp on the basics. Really, according to her logic once her kids can read and identify numbers on a calculator, her job is done.

[Koala]

Call me crazy, but I am somewhat relieved by this. The up and coming generation of fundies will be too parent induced dumb to give us a bit of worry that they might try to take office in gov. and pass laws. They'll all be down at the Wal-mart trying to figure whether they've been given the correct change or not. :roll:

[cindyluvs24]

Thank goodness she's protecting her poor children from ever getting harmed by calculus and the like.....

[Hane]

Funny thing about learning math: When my grandson was in kindergarten, his father gave him an old, cheap calculator to play with. The kiddo was enthralled by it, and started learning arithmetical calculations by playing with it. One day (when he didn't have the calculator with him) he asked me, "What's sixty plus sixty?" I answered, "What do YOU think it is?" and he said, "A hundred and twenty." No one taught him this. Watching Nat Geo Wild, he asked his father how big an acre is. "It would be as if you took four yards as big as ours and put them together," his dad said. "Oh, then if you put eight of them together, you'd get two acres," said Grandson.

Nobody in our family is really "wired" for math, but here you go. I'd never have thought of a calculator as a learning tool for a kid who hadn't even been exposed to basic arithmetic.

[gezykah]

Funny thing about learning math: When my grandson was in kindergarten, his father gave him an old, cheap calculator to play with. The kiddo was enthralled by it, and started learning arithmetical calculations by playing with it. One day (when he didn't have the calculator with him) he asked me, "What's sixty plus sixty?" I answered, "What do YOU think it is?" and he said, "A hundred and twenty." No one taught him this. Watching Nat Geo Wild, he asked his father how big an acre is. "It would be as if you took four yards as big as ours and put them together," his dad said. "Oh, then if you put eight of them together, you'd get two acres," said Grandson.

Nobody in our family is really "wired" for math, but here you go. I'd never have thought of a calculator as a learning tool for a kid who hadn't even been exposed to basic arithmetic.

That reminds me of how I learned math. I had a tendency to learn or teach myself stuff before it was brought up in school. I remember being about three and playing with calculators, math tables, and fake money. I would use the money so I could physically see the equations from the tables and calculators. Rote memory was never a problem for me but having the chance to learn in a more hands on sort of way gave me a deeper understanding of what it all meant.

Technology can be a great thing. Last summer I was babysitting two sisters for a couple and let them play with my iphone. I have an app that will scan the price of items and compare the costs at different stores. They loved it and on their own decided to come up with a list of stores they felt their parents should shop at.

Technology at its best will enhance understanding and learning but can be dangerous when it supplants them.

[snarkykitty]

Kelly is on one of her anti-school tirades, and is posting about how she doesn't teach long division. Why? Because you can just use a calculator.

She congratulates herself about this. Apparently, she thinks that no educator, anywhere, has ever thought of removing an antiquated subject off their curriculum.

This interests me because my fourth-grader studied cursive last year, and now I find she is also studying it this year. Last year's teacher apologized at back-to-school night, saying that she knows our kids will hardly ever use cursive, but they still feel it is important to teach it. I'm not sure why they are teaching it this year too (it is a different school, so that might explain it).

Anyhow, whether or not it's good to teach cursive, it is clear to me that school administrators are certainly thinking about whether it is useful, and have decided that it is. Why does Kelly think that asking such questions is so unique, so special, so unusual that it would never occur to educators (because they are so dumb)?

I suppose opinions may differ, but I think long division is important. Often I do long division with a pencil, when a calculator isn't around. And I sure wouldn't want to be the only grownup on my job who didn't know how to divide (or who didn't fully understand the concept, because my mom decided it wasn't important to study).

For that matter, Kelly, why learn anything at all, when most everything is available on google? Why not be an ignorant adult who just googles things she doesn't understand? Of course, you really can't google the idea of division and get a quick answer--it's more of a concept that needs some study in order to understand.

We learned cursive - also called "Penmanship" in the fourth grade, and continued to practice in the fifth grade. One reason for focusing on it the following year was because we were writing longer works like essays and poems. I vividly remember earning poor grades early on in penmanship because I wrote very small and it was more difficult for the teacher to read.

Even considering the prevalence of computers/electronics and keyboards, I don't think that handwriting will ever go completely by the wayside.

[jenny_islander]

I always assumed that long division was taught, not just in case the calculator broke, but to understand the fundamental principles behind division. Plugging something into a calculator is not the same as understanding how a mathematical principle works.

Yes. This is why my community college continued to teach bookkeeping by hand for years after the textbooks went out of print. You have to understand what the program was designed to do or it's just "put numbers in magic box, press button, get answer, if there is a glitch in the program you will never know."

Likewise, the spell checker is very useful, but it is no substitute for knowing how to spell.

And also: Cursive is designed for rapid production of text. Sure, you can "just" use a keyboard and go even faster, but I don't think cursive will truly be dead until every person in the world can own an unbreakable, unscratchable, hardened, completely waterproof and glare-free electronic notebook with a big, comfortable unfolding keyboard built in and a battery that never runs out. As long as pens and notepaper are cheaper and more portable, handwriting will be important.

[church_of_dog]

Yes. This is why my community college continued to teach bookkeeping by hand for years after the textbooks went out of print. You have to understand what the program was designed to do or it's just "put numbers in magic box, press button, get answer, if there is a glitch in the program you will never know."

Likewise, the spell checker is very useful, but it is no substitute for knowing how to spell.

Agreed!

And also: Cursive is designed for rapid production of text. Sure, you can "just" use a keyboard and go even faster, but I don't think cursive will truly be dead until every person in the world can own an unbreakable, unscratchable, hardened, completely waterproof and glare-free electronic notebook with a big, comfortable unfolding keyboard built in and a battery that never runs out. As long as pens and notepaper are cheaper and more portable, handwriting will be important.

Not to mention reliable grid electricity, which is *not* everywhere in the world, and in fact will probably become less reliable in more developed nations as time goes on, from what I'm learning about the aging of the grid and the incredible amount of money/energy needed to keep it maintained and functional.

Also, when I was learning chemistry in high school, the teacher had a way of showing the chemical reactions as if they were mathematical equations -- this somehow really clicked in my head and made it much easier for me to understand the chemistry concepts, because I had already, at a younger age, been taught the mathematical concepts that underlay them.

So the idea of deciding the kids don't need to understand basic concepts because one person can't imagine a need for them just irks me. Basic concepts are the building blocks -- you don't have to know every possible way a person might use those ideas before deciding if they are good to be a part of that person's knowledge base! :pull-hair:

[OkToBeTakei]

My 10 year old did long division last year.

This week we were converting fractions into percentages. By *we* I had my game face on whilst phoning a friend :lol:

7/12 as a percentage :?

Mental Maths is her favourite subject. She memorised her tables aged 7, it really helped. Calculators are NOT allowed. We do not even have one in the house unless it is a phone. Not sure when and if they will be allowed in her curriculum.

When they are I will be able to show her how to write SHELL OIL. Yup Maths and I were not a good mix.

ETA.

Maybe Kelly does not teach long division in case her kids realise it really is just bad Maths to divide 2 chicken breasts by that amount of people.