Judge tells female lawyers what to wear to court

[2xx1xy1JD]

http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2013/06/1 ... courtroom/

I'd get more offended at the notion that women are being told to wear jackets with sleeves below the elbow...but this is what MY local court requires me to wear to motions and trials:

http://harcourts.com/products/legal/

Yes, the latest in 17th century legal fashion. Plus, multiple items in long black wool is just perfect for those days when it's over 100F with the humidex.

[lizziesmom]

What is the dress code for men? It better be full suits and ties or this is hyper hypocritical.

[2xx1xy1JD]

What is the dress code for men? It better be full suits and ties or this is hyper hypocritical.

From the last line of the article:

My lovely 17th century court attire is unisex.

[Mela99]

There is a judge in our town - I've never gone before him, he's district level - but doesn't allow women in front of him unless they're in skirts. But he's insanely anal with the men, too. No suits any other color than black or blue and 'simple' ties. White shirts only.

I work pants as often as skirts in court, didn't always have a blazer on. I only ever saw one example of people getting 'noticed' for what she wore - a fellow intern. She who had sky high bright purple stillettos on (girl was tiny in stature, but those were seriously six inches high), and the judge sort of raised his eyebrows and asked her how she could walk. We were running files that day, and she basically had to tip toe through the court room slowly. All the judge said was maybe she should stick to more practical shoes.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Yes, the latest in 17th century legal fashion. Plus, multiple items in long black wool is just perfect for those days when it's over 100F with the humidex.

Can you at least wear whatever you want under that thing?

Still that's gotta be hot...

[uber frau]

They wear that here (Australia) too. It's probably okay inside with the A/C set to polar but step outside for a meant on a 40 degree day...

They seem to wear whatever they want underneath, as long as it's super conservative. The worst bit has to be the wig. (And the cost, I remember a friend of my sister's getting a second job to save for the damn thing).

[acheronbeach]

Can you at least wear whatever you want under that thing?

Still that's gotta be hot...

You wear a white long sleeve dress shirt under it with a special wing collar; overtop that goes your polyester or wool waistcoat. You can wear black/charcoal/pinstripe pants or a pencil skirt on the bottom. Then the gown and tabs go overtop.

It's insanely hot. And I bought Harcourt's cheapest gown, so mine's all hot polyester. :( Luckily, I usually appear in provincial court, where you get to wear a suit.

[Eclipse]

Can you at least wear whatever you want under that thing?

Still that's gotta be hot...

There is a specific style of white blouse you wear with wings to go with the tabs (not quite a tie). under the robe you are also wearing a jacket. Both genders have to wear this in Ontario. In Ontario either gender can wear black or grey pants or certain pinstripes of a certain colour. Women can wear black or grey skirts but I think they have to be of a certain length (I don't wear skirts to court). Your shoes have to be a certain colour and so do your socks/pantyhose.and you can't go bare legged under a skirt. At least we don't have to wear wigs. You don't want to wear anything else under this get up or you overheat and you can't move.

I had my court dress made in summer length wool, so it is tolerable most of the time.

But every now and then a female lawyer will be thrown out of court because her skirt is too short but I have also seen men thrown out because they didn't have the right pants or they were deemed to be too shaggy.

2xx1xy1JD, you posted a link to harcourts, are you perhaps in Ontario?

[acheronbeach]

Your shoes have to be a certain colour and so do your socks/pantyhose.and you can't go bare legged under a skirt.

Is that actually enforced? I work in a tiny little judicial district and none of the women wear hose (ever... we're lucky if their skirts go past the ass for a lot of them). When I asked at Harcourts, they didn't know what colour of hose was supposed to be worn, so I assumed it was no biggie if you went bare legged.

Good for me to know if I go to some other judicial district.

[Anxious Girl]

So the big strong men can't controll their hormones when they see women wearing short sleaves/strapless clothing? Hypocrits. :roll:

[meda]

I'll be honest, I agree with the judge. It annoys me when fellow attorneys show up in crocs and lounge pants, or weird summer party dress stuff for a court appearance. I get not dressing up if you are just dropping something off with the clerk, but if you're actually in court, show some respect. It's a formal proceeding, so dress like it.

I typically wear a pant suit, there is only one judge I deal with who I'll do the skirt suit and hose routine for. It's actually a woman judge, and she will absolutely give the men an equally hard time for looking sloppy in court.

I realize the above makes me sound like a crotchety old man telling kids to get off my lawn...but not every work environment needs to be business casual or less.

[Anxious Girl]

meda, how the fuck is wearing a short-sleaved shirt that is business-appropriate but not past the elbow inappropriate? As long is the clothing doesn't make one look improper (work clothes, not hanging-out with family-and-friends clothes) or is wearing something that could be considered offensive, who cares? What's more important to the American justice system, getting justice done, or judges dictating what they deem is appropriate clothing? I mean, this is what's important in America's courts today? Really?

[meda]

I don't think a short sleeve shirt without a jacket is business appropriate for court, on either gender. Also, if you are going to ask hyperbolic questions about the business of Americas courts.... well I think my business in court is to be an effective advocate for my clients. Part of that advocacy is respecting the court and the judge by dressing appropriately. I also feel it demonstrates respect for my client to show up looking like I've brought my A game, not like I've just tiled out of bed.

I don't represent wealthy people who get a ton of respect in their everyday lives. The least I can do for them is shrug on a suit jacket before a hearing.

[Nootbar]

I don't think a short sleeve shirt without a jacket is business appropriate for court, on either gender. Also, if you are going to ask hyperbolic questions about the business of Americas courts.... well I think my business in court is to be an effective advocate for my clients. Part of that advocacy is respecting the court and the judge by dressing appropriately. I also feel it demonstrates respect for my client to show up looking like I've brought my A game, not like I've just tiled out of bed.

I don't represent wealthy people who get a ton of respect in their everyday lives. The least I can do for them is shrug on a suit jacket before a hearing.

I agree. I'd never appear in court without a jacket.

[Anxious Girl]

I don't think a short sleeve shirt without a jacket is business appropriate for court, on either gender. Also, if you are going to ask hyperbolic questions about the business of Americas courts.... well I think my business in court is to be an effective advocate for my clients. Part of that advocacy is respecting the court and the judge by dressing appropriately. I also feel it demonstrates respect for my client to show up looking like I've brought my A game, not like I've just tiled out of bed.

I don't represent wealthy people who get a ton of respect in their everyday lives. The least I can do for them is shrug on a suit jacket before a hearing.

Sorry I snapped at you. * :embarrassed: * I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. I'm not familiar with clothing conduct at court, so I don't know.

[burntnorton]

I'd like to underscore meda's point. It's about being an effective advocate by showing respect to the parties, the court, the jury, and the proceedings. Showing up on time in appropriate attire (which in most jurisdictions means a clean, pressed jacket and pants or a skirt that fits) is the bare minimum. Failing to do so will not only likely annoy the judge, it will piss off your client and the jury. Moreover, you want the court to pay attention to your arguments. Distracting them by wearing clothes that aren't appropriate to the venue.

Also, protip, try not to wear jeans, shorts, or other casual attire to court if you have to there for any reason. It may not hurt you, but it won't help.

[freedomjesusfootball]

Although the style seems impractical and hot on the British court attire, I do like that it makes for a visually equal playing field. It takes the personality of the lawyer out of the equation somewhat, so one can focus on their words. Cover everyone in a nondescript black robe, and who cares what's underneath?

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I'm mostly confused as to why pants should be considered more "casual" when they are on women. Why is a pantsuit not equivalent to a skirt suit with pantyhose?

[latraviata]

Although the style seems impractical and hot on the British court attire, I do like that it makes for a visually equal playing field. It takes the personality of the lawyer out of the equation somewhat, so one can focus on their words. Cover everyone in a nondescript black robe, and who cares what's underneath?

Dutch court has black robes too. A friend of mine decided just to wear her underwear underneath that robe on a particularly hot day. The judge suggested to leave the robes off because that day the heat was inbearable.... well obviously my friend kept her robe on and everybody thought she was either crazy or very strict in court etiquette.

Personally I think one has to dress for the occasion.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Can you at least wear whatever you want under that thing?

Still that's gotta be hot...

We get a choice of black, grey or black/grey pinstripe pants or skirt, black or grey socks and/or black, grey or nude hose. Shoes must be black.

Courts are air conditioned, but yeah, it gets hot. It doesn't help that I bought the outfit in 1996, so it's pretty snug on me now. On the hottest days, it looks that I'm doing a striptease in the parking lot as I'm tearing off layers.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There is a specific style of white blouse you wear with wings to go with the tabs (not quite a tie). under the robe you are also wearing a jacket. Both genders have to wear this in Ontario. In Ontario either gender can wear black or grey pants or certain pinstripes of a certain colour. Women can wear black or grey skirts but I think they have to be of a certain length (I don't wear skirts to court). Your shoes have to be a certain colour and so do your socks/pantyhose.and you can't go bare legged under a skirt. At least we don't have to wear wigs. You don't want to wear anything else under this get up or you overheat and you can't move.

I had my court dress made in summer length wool, so it is tolerable most of the time.

But every now and then a female lawyer will be thrown out of court because her skirt is too short but I have also seen men thrown out because they didn't have the right pants or they were deemed to be too shaggy.

2xx1xy1JD, you posted a link to harcourts, are you perhaps in Ontario?

Yes.

During summer, I will skip the hose and just wear black shoes. The table or podium pretty much hides my lower legs, and it's hard to tell whether someone has sheer hose or bare legs.

I do appreciate the formality of the outfit, and the fact that it does clearly identify me as a lawyer. It also eliminates the whole question of what to wear to a trial, and it ultimately saves money because I don't need a lot of expensive court-worthy suits updated every season.

[lizziesmom]

So the big strong men can't controll their hormones when they see women wearing short sleaves/strapless clothing? Hypocrits. :roll:

I doubt that it is the reasoning at all. It has more to do with honoring and respecting the court in your attire. Two quick war stories. When I first started practicing law (in the US) I was at work one day in a jumper and blouse. One of my bosses had to be in court and asked me to go with him. Even though all I did was sit beside him in the courtroom, the judge commented on my attire because it was too casual for the courtroom. (I had no idea I would even be in the courtroom when I dressed that morning).

Second story. One judge who presided in the county in which I practiced actually refused to hear a motion in a criminal matter when the defendant showed up in a t shirt (with some crass saying on it), shorts and flip flops. He was told to come back in proper attire.

[CelticGoddess]

What is the dress code for men? It better be full suits and ties or this is hyper hypocritical.

According to the article, he has fined male attorneys for not wearing suit coats.

When I read the title of the thread, I was immediately reminded of the episode of Law and Order SVU with Tom Skerrit as the mysogynistic judge. That was a good episode. I think I am going to go watch it.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I don't have a problem with uniforms (grew up wearing them to school) but it seems a summer version or cooler fabric standard version would be a good thing. Sort of how in the Southern US people have worn seersucker suits and linen suits and that sort of thing.

I'm reminded of "cool biz" in Japan. Back before the days of air conditioning, in the summer businessmen would take off their jackets and wear short sleeves and it was okay because everyone did it. That was business attire, because East Asia in the summer is hot and humid and miserable. Even with the jacket, the short sleeves was a thing, and you could take your jacket off on many occasions. Sure, it's a bit "Your Company's Computer Guy" but everyone does it and so its the standard. Short sleeved white shirt, tie, pants, was a thing. (Plus nerdy plastic glasses, oh yes...)

Then AC is introduced, and everyone starts out-formalling each other, and it's all about long sleeved shirts with ties and the full jacket all the time in the summer - when really the country needs to conserve energy and dial back on the AC. So they had to have some official initiatives to wear less stuffy clothing, to wear the short sleeves again. They had to have politicians purposely wear short sleeves and no tie to convince people that it was okay.

Cool suit technology...

Back to the uniforms, we had summer and winter uniforms, the summer ones were made of thinner material and yes had short sleeves, no jacket. So far, so good but there was a stupid rule that everyone had to switch from summer to winter on the same day (everyone, across the country, in every occupation - everyone) the weather be damned. That... was just stupid :)

Meanwhile at my local courthouse they don't let anyone in wearing shorts, even if you're hauled there as a witness or defendant or whatever it is, you have to wear long pants or a skirt. Jeans are okay (for people appearing - I'm sure the lawyers have to wear formal suits) but I suspect they frown at holes.

Around 20 years ago I had a chance to go on the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, at least at that time they did not permit jeans on the floor. Any other sort of long pants were okay. They also require jackets for the traders but if you ever have seen the floor, people wear thin cotton/polyester jackets in wacky colors or patterns because the whole idea is to be seen from across the room with everyone shouting and yelling and waving their arms around. People hired in certain roles have certain standard colors but the independent guys, it's just crazy stuff.

[kayray]

We have a judge here who "prefers" to see women in skirts and pantyhose. He apparently stated so publically in court more than once before my time. He is old, conservative, and hopefully will soon leave the bench. I never, ever wear skirts. I am not even sure I own any suit skirts. I like pants. I totally agree with wearing what is respectful to the Court, but it is totally over the line in my opinion for any judge to then input his own personal preferences, especially as in my experience it always seems to be a male judge imposing those rules on women. As a feminist, this angers me beyond belief!

We also have a judge here who likes to see a wedding ring on a female lawyer. He is uncomfortable with unmarried female lawyers, apparently. I am married, but my single colleague always switches a ring over to her ring finger when she appears in front of him!

I wear pantsuits, or dress pants and a jacket. I always wear a jacket in Chambers or Provincial Court. Always a suit at a Provincial Court trial. Of course, the barrister's robes posted above are worn in Queen's Bench trials, sentencing, etc. Indeed, they are hot and mine are the full wool ones. Luckily I tend to run cold almost all the time anyway, and they are however awfully forgiving if you are having a bloat day!

Most lawyers I see around here dress pretty respectfully in Court, though there is one lawyer who wears suits that are about 2-3 sizes too small, short, and very high "going out" heels. She also kind of "slops" around in front of the bench kicking off her shoes and such. She is...interesting.

The criminal bar here is always interesting for fashion. I do not do criminal work generally but have appeared as agent or had to do some appearances due to it being related to other files of mine. On docket, I find that while the Crown is dressed in suits, and a couple of the Defence will show up in their robes as they have trials, etc going on elsewhere in the Court, some of the defence lawyers will show up in short-sleeved shirts and flip-flops. It is like one extreme or the other.