NYT: Israel's ultra-orthrodox and welfare

[YPestis]

Here was an interesting article about ultra-orthrodox Jews in Israel and their difficulty with assimilation into the secular working world (you should be able to get around the paywall as this is a third party link. ):

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/world ... d=all&_r=0

Here are snippets:

Israel has been consumed in recent months with the challenge of integrating the insular, swelling ultra-Orthodox minority, known as Haredim, into society.

....

Because of Orthodox men’s commitment to full-time Torah study and a fear of assimilation, only a little more than 4 in 10 of them work, less than half the rate of other Jewish men in Israel, and their average salaries are 57 percent of other Jewish men in the country. Nearly 60 percent of Haredi families live in poverty, and by 2050 they are expected to make up more than a quarter of Israel’s population.

....

There are many barriers to scale. Haredi schools teach little math, science or English: one recent study said graduates had the equivalent of zero to four years of secular education. The community shuns the Internet. Many men want to work few hours, and some refuse to work in offices with women.

....

While Haredi culture everywhere prioritizes Torah study, it is only in Israel that so many pursue it full time. It was not always this way....

Employment rates plummeted largely because those who skirted army service by citing Torah study as their vocation were blocked from seeking jobs. The new draft law — which still needs to be approved by the cabinet and Parliament — would remove that obstacle. At the same time, the budget scheduled to be approved this summer would drastically cut the subsidies their large families rely on, adding another incentive to work.

Unlike in many religious communities, Haredi women work at higher rates than men — about 61 percent, according to the Taub Center — in part to support their husbands’ Torah study.

The first time I heard of these Haredim was from a (liberal) Jewish friend who gets into a frothing rage about their treatment of women. The next time I heard of this situation was----surprisingly---from Anna T, our resident Jewish fundie. She also spoke with contempt for these men. It's interesting that two people on diametrically opposite poles of Judaism could come to the same conclusion on the Haredim situation, even though they take very different views on the role of women in society.

The NYT article goes on to interview Haredim men who do seek out jobs and education and how they are met with extreme disapproval, even violence. I find this mindset baffling. How can a society condone (maybe even encourage) taking welfare and then excoriating the very society that is providing for your community and allowing you to live your desired lifestyle? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

It also brings to mind how religion extremism is extremely corrosive to a society. It's one thing to tolerate such beliefs but it's another to then SUBSIDIZE that way of life. It seems this type of overt tolerance does not lead to acceptance of secular values, but contempt for it.

Haredims in the US still work. That said, it appears some of the highest poverty rates in the US occur within these ultra-Orthrodox Jewish communities due to the high fecundity and low incomes.

If we ever get an issue of a small religious sect becoming welfare parasites, it would more likely to be followers of Duggars and Vision Forum. Little education, isolationism, contempt for modern society. That all sound familiar? The only difference is most US fundies eschew government welfare. I guess we will probably never see any of the Duggar kids becoming a full time "Biblical" scholar and asking for welfare handouts to support his 7 kids, right?

I leave this post with an interesting comment from the above article:

"A friend in Israel has such Haredi son-in-law. He studies Torah all day long, they have 9 children. The son-in-law doesn't work, he claims God will provide - to which my friend answered, as he brought them needed bags of groceries - 'Do I look like God to you?'

[ILoveJellybeans]

That is terrible, they make John Shrader and XtraGay Greg seem like hard working men.

[rward]

This definitely happens in the US. The family lives off the wife's (minimal) earnings and food stamps, Section 8, etc.

I worked for a year at a Jewish Family Services. They would do stuff like provide a maid free of charge for a month or two for families that had just had a baby so the wife could get back to work immediately. (I think they cut that service after I left. It was controversial among donors at the time.) One of my coworkers worked tirelessly to bring Jews over from Russia. They were given paid for apartments, fully furnished, and set up with food stamps, etc. and they would find the wife a job so the husband could continue studying. Supposedly, these Russian Jews were experiencing persecution requiring their immigration to the US, and maybe some were, but mostly the persecution seemed to be that the Russian government wasn't subsidizing their Torah study. They picked the US over Israel because of Israel's mandatory army service.

It was very, very odd to watch secular, feminist Jews work so hard to allow Hasidic Jews to continue their misogynistic, fundamentalist lifestyle.

[Arete]

"A friend in Israel has such Haredi son-in-law. He studies Torah all day long, they have 9 children. The son-in-law doesn't work, he claims God will provide - to which my friend answered, as he brought them needed bags of groceries - 'Do I look like God to you?'

:lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, that is a real problem and a terrible situation for the grandfather to have to subsidize. That said, his response is the kind of snark I grew up with and it gives me a cozy feeling.

[Dinorah]

The Haredim in Israel are basically parasites, but the politicians won't touch them because they vote in blocs. They're certainly more unpopular than Arabs amongst secular Israelis (at least those I've met).

Anyway, I don't get the mentality of "I don't recognize this state but will live off it", how can you be so openly hypocritical.

[France Nolan]

This definitely happens in the US. The family lives off the wife's (minimal) earnings and food stamps, Section 8, etc.

I worked for a year at a Jewish Family Services. They would do stuff like provide a maid free of charge for a month or two for families that had just had a baby so the wife could get back to work immediately. (I think they cut that service after I left. It was controversial among donors at the time.) One of my coworkers worked tirelessly to bring Jews over from Russia. They were given paid for apartments, fully furnished, and set up with food stamps, etc. and they would find the wife a job so the husband could continue studying. Supposedly, these Russian Jews were experiencing persecution requiring their immigration to the US, and maybe some were, but mostly the persecution seemed to be that the Russian government wasn't subsidizing their Torah study. They picked the US over Israel because of Israel's mandatory army service.

It was very, very odd to watch secular, feminist Jews work so hard to allow Hasidic Jews to continue their misogynistic, fundamentalist lifestyle.

I've seen the same thing. It's really quite bizarre. I always wondered how they managed to get around the work requirements that most social programs have.

As far a the Haredi being parasites... I'm loathe to call anyone a parasite. I think they, like anyone else, have a right to practice their religion as they see fit. Where I draw the line is that they expect the government to subsidize it.

[thoughtful]

Haredi schools teach little math, science or English: one recent study said graduates had the equivalent of zero to four years of secular education.

More children being brought up with extreme limits. :(

[fundiefun]

Okay odd story I work in the adult entertainment field (I post over in the AMA section) and a frequent buyer of mine is orthodox who lives in an orthodox community in Michigan. He however works as well as his brother who is away studying at a university. I was kind of shocked because that's the first customer of mine who is from an ultra religious community so I guess they're not as closed off as I thought they were.

[miffy]

I don't understand how people can choose religion as a full time occupation like this. I always thought that if you felt compelled to do something like this you would become a cleric.

[oil]

The Haredim in Israel are basically parasites, but the politicians won't touch them because they vote in blocs. They're certainly more unpopular than Arabs amongst secular Israelis (at least those I've met).

.

I never can understand haredim voting influence when only they have 20% of the Israeli people. And some neighborhood of haredim dont even believe in vote because they against the zion.

Theres a mix feeling for haredim. They economic parasites yes. But they are the keepers of the religion when we the secular Israelis dont, so haredi not really parasites that they give to the people some thing even if we dont care about it. May be some where in side our hearts we do care, Im not sure because I dont comtemplate this idea too often.

People here are dont like the economic parasite haredim and things will change soon. The payments will soon be lowered and they will be force to work. But I dont know what they will work with out the education. They will NEVER do military service even if the law say it.

Ok for me and my friends and family and neighbors, I agree that we have good relations and liking to our Arab ones than haredim. But they not many haredim in Tel Aviv so not issue for me.

Some one or two here post that the fundys are like haredim? No way. The fundy wont take welfare ever, the haredim say its their right to have it.

[oil]

Okay odd story I work in the adult entertainment field (I post over in the AMA section) and a frequent buyer of mine is orthodox who lives in an orthodox community in Michigan. He however works as well as his brother who is away studying at a university. I was kind of shocked because that's the first customer of mine who is from an ultra religious community so I guess they're not as closed off as I thought they were.

Orthodox and ultra orthodox (haredi) are different. Orthodox arent sheltered. They know all about smut.

[fundiefun]

Orthodox and ultra orthodox (haredi) are different. Orthodox arent sheltered. They know all about smut.

It just surprised me because I was under the impression that orthodox jews were very conservative so that was a new lesson for me. I guess you will have those who are into sex no matter where you go or how cloistered their groups are.

[roddma]

" If we ever get an issue of a small religious sect becoming welfare parasites, it would more likely to be followers of Duggars and Vision Forum. Little education, isolationism, contempt for modern society. That all sound familiar? The only difference is most US fundies eschew government welfare. I guess we will probably never see any of the Duggar kids becoming a full time "Biblical" scholar and asking for welfare handouts to support his 7 kids, right?"

THis reminds me of how Rck Santorum and the Duggars loathe welfare but Rick wanted to increase child tax credits. Baptist minister Albert Mohler, has always wanted a tax code that would support large families.

[oil]

It just surprised me because I was under the impression that orthodox jews were very conservative so that was a new lesson for me. I guess you will have those who are into sex no matter where you go or how cloistered their groups are.

Yes thats true! I can imagine how surprise you to know your customer is orthodox jew. :lol:

[oil]

If we ever get an issue of a small religious sect becoming welfare parasites, it would more likely to be followers of Duggars and Vision Forum. Little education, isolationism, contempt for modern society. That all sound familiar? The only difference is most US fundies eschew government welfare. I guess we will probably never see any of the Duggar kids becoming a full time "Biblical" scholar and asking for welfare handouts to support his 7 kids, right?

May be Im not understanding. First you say Duggar/ATI people would become welfare parasites if we ever get an issue of small religious sect, and then you say the only difference is that they eschew government welfare. Thats contradictory to my mind.

[YPestis]

May be Im not understanding. First you say Duggar/ATI people would become welfare parasites if we ever get an issue of small religious sect, and then you say the only difference is that they eschew government welfare. Thats contradictory to my mind.

I'm not not what your question is in regards to my statement? :think:

I was speculating that if we ever get a situation like the haredim-welfare issue in Israel, the most likely candidates would be quiverful fundies as they share similar characteristics (little education, many children). However, since most fundies eschew welfare, a situation like the haredim welfare arrangement will probably not arise in the US from the quiverful set. I'm not sure we will see this type of situation with Christian fundies, even though they share similar characteristics to the haredim.

[oil]

I'm not not what your question is in regards to my statement? :think:

lol sorry for my english. But you answer it very perfect for me to understand it.

[martian]

I'm not not what your question is in regards to my statement? :think:

I was speculating that if we ever get a situation like the haredim-welfare issue in Israel, the most likely candidates would be quiverful fundies as they share similar characteristics (little education, many children). However, since most fundies eschew welfare, a situation like the haredim welfare arrangement will probably not arise in the US from the quiverful set. I'm not sure we will see this type of situation with Christian fundies, even though they share similar characteristics to the haredim.

We do get this in the U.S. with the Mormon fundie polygamists, though, and they consider themselves Christian. They call it "starving the beast". There's no danger of them overrunning the country, but I expect they're an awful strain on their local resources.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if they're pro Obamacare? They should vote for Democrats. I'm in favour of Medicare for all, even leeches like them.

[thoughtful]

We do get this in the U.S. with the Mormon fundie polygamists, though, and they consider themselves Christian. They call it "starving the beast".

Martian beat me to it. I think they call it "bleeding the beast," though.

I wonder sometimes how many fundies who go on and on about hating government handouts are actually taking more than they admit to.

[JesusFightClub]

Apparently some nutters here call signing on while being against the system "jihad-seeker's allowance" (playing off "job-seekers' allowance" in the UK). CF: Anjem Choudary. Still, what can you do?

I don't like the term "parasite" being used for someone on benefits, though. No matter what the reason.

[Dinorah]

I don't think people using welfare are parasites (I'm strongly in favour of social safety nets) and indeed people are free to practice their religion as they wish, but if you deliberately chose not to work, not to acquire a decent education, expect tax payers to support you, eschew something as important in Israeli society as military service, then in my book you are a parasite.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

There are definitely full time learners at kollel in the US. However as far as I know, in the US the chassidic men usually tend to work (sometimes they do the kollel learning for a few years - think grad school, I guess - but then get jobs when they start having kids).

It's more the non-chassidic ultra-orthodox, certain of the extreme yeshivish types, that do the "stay learning forever" thing. Google around Lakewood and BMG, you can find lifelong learners and people who will talk about how supposedly the best man to land is someone who won't work, people saying certain of the more selective religious elementary schools looking down on kids whose fathers work.

Anyway I find the situation (in both countries) interesting just because it's another example of what is actually a fairly NEW culture clothing itself in tradition, and something that's likely to be unsustainable in the long term. People with tiny incomes having tons of kids and now having moved far enough "rightward" religiously that public (i.e. free) school is not an option, it's just not sustainable. As it is a lot of them are getting aid from previous generations of the family, the in-laws all went to college and have high paying careers but then the kids moved "right," etc, but that's not going to be there a few generations in, etc (in Israel there's similar talk about in-laws buying apartments).

Some people have always studied forever or been monks, etc. But when everyone tries to do it, it's just not sustainable.

I will say though that from my heathen POV, the lack of all secular studies after bar mitzvah for boys just boggles my mind. That's after not having exactly rigorous secular studies before that age either, in a lot of the "better" religious schools. Those schools in NYC that prohibit people getting a Regent's diploma, those in Israel that don't offer any studies for bagrut... at least the US ones are private. In Israel I hear there's talk of the state pulling funding for any schools that won't teach the basic curriculum (including things like MATH and MODERN HEBREW), it's definitely not anything up to me but it sounds like a good idea.

[martian]

Martian beat me to it. I think they call it "bleeding the beast," though.

I wonder sometimes how many fundies who go on and on about hating government handouts are actually taking more than they admit to.

You're right, I got my radical conservatives mixed up. Starving the beast is the right wing political strategy of cutting taxes until there's not enough revenue for fripperies like food stamps or Medicare and so forth. Mormon fundies bleed the beast.

From what I've seen, the rule for taking advantage of the benefits you rail againt the government giving is: Other people make bad choices, you've just had a little bad luck. It's only fair that you get some help.

I don't know about fundies exactly, but I've seen a lot of hardcore complainers taking benefits they'd more than cheerfully deny to others. Maybe fundies keep it more on the down low.

Apparently some nutters here call signing on while being against the system "jihad-seeker's allowance" (playing off "job-seekers' allowance" in the UK). CF: Anjem Choudary. Still, what can you do?

I don't like the term "parasite" being used for someone on benefits, though. No matter what the reason.

People who deliberately, as a political action, drain the social welfare system of resources needed by so many - people who literally want to destroy the system and raise up theocracy in it's place - yeah, I'll call them parasites. That's what they consciously are choosing to be. And they want the host to die.

Those sorts are my exception, though. I think our social welfare system is criminally underfunded. It's abhorrent the suffering we're willing to let go on here and shortsighted to boot. So much human potential going to waste for lack of a hand up or a way out to anywhere but the prison industrial complex.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Apparently some nutters here call signing on while being against the system "jihad-seeker's allowance" (playing off "job-seekers' allowance" in the UK). CF: Anjem Choudary. Still, what can you do?

I don't like the term "parasite" being used for someone on benefits, though. No matter what the reason.

What is parasite-like, though, is the ATTITUDE of some of the community's leadership.

Higher birthrates mean that the Haredim are an increasingly percentage of the population. There are those in the community who are actively opposed to dealing with reality, and push the idea that boys cannot learn basic general studies, or serve in the army, or aspire to do anything other than religious studies. Some of these same groups will have no respect for more secular Israelis, although they are perfectly willing to take their tax money for their own purposes and have the army defend them while they refuse to serve.

I thought I posted this a few months ago, but here's a transcript of Yair Lapid's speach to the Haredim at Kiryat Ono.

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/ ... ranscript/

Things are coming to a head now, because the new coalition government, for once, doesn't contain any Haredi parties. Since Israel has a proportionate representation system, it has an insane number of political parties and it's pretty much impossible for any one party to get a majority of the seats. As a result, the bigger parties need to form coalitions with the smaller ones. The Haredi parties were traditionally willing to support either Labor or Likud, as long as they were given control of a key ministry or two and got funding for their institutions. That gravy train is about to end. As well, the law which exempted yeshiva students from military service was struck down. Full-out draft is unlikely to happen, but the status quo will change.

[tabitha2]

fine,let them go hungry then. when you face the prospect of your kids starving then it becomes real and they will start working fast enough. i have no sympathy for this bull shit.