Common knowledge that might not be common for fundies

[dawbs]

As far as I know, women shouldn't really have cramps before their periods start. (Migraines and mood changes are something else.) When I got my tubes tied, the doctors told me they'd found endometrial cysts and lasered them off while they were in there. My cramps went away for 10 years. (They are back now. So sad...) When I mentioned that my pre-period cramps had completely gone away, I was told that they had been caused by endometriosis, and poking around in Google confirmed that.*snip*

The difference between cramps and "Mittelschmerz" is pretty indistinguishable for some of us--I've had both and it can be hard to distinguish. And in spite of what people tell you about it being 'ovulation pain', it can strike at any time during the cycle.

Post surgery, I get Mittelschmerz pain for a few days before my cycle. And a few days after. And sometimes during (I can now tell the difference between it and cramps. I think.)

[Rescinded and Mended]

My mom (not a fundy) believes that women's breasts get bigger when they "let men/boys play with them." (her words)

I hate to admit I have actually heard of this one. My mom's friends have told stories about girls who taped their breasts down in high school because they didn't want reputations for having had a lot of sex with boys. The fact that many of them were virgins and didn't date didn't seem to matter.

[Muriel]

I have a physician friend who once worked for an NGO in a sexually conservative non-Christian society. She pretty routinely had patients come to her fretting because they'd been married six months, a year, two years, and they were not yet pregnant. After talking with them it turns out they weren't having sex, or the sex they were having wasn't of the procreative kind. Some couples were engaging in anal intercourse. Some believed that simply sleeping in the same bed as their spouse would result in pregnancy. Other couples had intercourse once, waited to see if menstruation started, had intercourse again, waited another month to see if a pregnancy resulted, etc. She said she spent a lot face time with her patients teaching them the level of reproductive biology the typical 12-year-old American kid has. :?

And then there was the woman who thought she was ill because she got a period. It turns out she thought menstruation was a one-time event marking one's entry to womanhood. She's been pregnant or nursing since she was 12 or 13 and was in her mid-thirties before she menstruated after that first time. She was convinced she had cancer or that her reproductive system had gone haywire.

Wow... That's pretty amazing...

[Sola]

My mother was like that... according to her she never really got PMS OR cramps. My sister and I both get pretty bad PMS and really bad cramps, my sister worse than me... she's thrown up or passed out from the cramps and was put on prescription pain killers. I finally learned in my early 20s that it was best to pop an extra strength advil as soon as my period started instead of waiting for the excruciating pain to kick in, and now that time of the month is much easier to handle. ;)

I don't understand how boys, even fundie boys, can live in a house full of sisters and have no idea what menstruation is by the time they're adults. And I wonder how many fundie couples eventually figure out the clitoris and, er, make use of it.

My PE teacher was like that. I used to get horrendous pain, vomiting and would faint. The teacher was all 'oh it can't be that bad, exercise will help'. Um, no it didn't. Exercise made me bleed even more and I was already flooding. It made the pain worse. Years later I was diagnosed with grade 4 endometriosis, so yeah doing cross country running in he middle of winyer , while racked with pains, puking and fainting was just peachy.

[salex]

We have different approach than Americans/English people...

For example, what is private is private in France. It's looked down to speak about someone else sex life or love affairs. We don't care about it, we were extremely surprised by the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal because it couldn't occur here, people are not interested.

The Strauss-Kahn/Diallo scandal was different because it was a case of rape, which is a crime and not at all a love affair...

About being a Catholic country, we are a very, very secular country and the Catholic church has lost a lot of its power after the Revolution and during the whole 19th century. We end up with the 1905 law, which institutionalized the separation between state and church, so I wouldn't say we are a religious country anymore...

I think we are quite laid back about love/sex, and we have a long story of broad jokes and so on, but we don't talk very openly about bodily function, in that matter we are different than Anglo-Saxons people.

I could be writhing in pain from cramps and would never tell anyone, except my husband and maybe amy sister (maybe) unless that person were a medical practitioner and I was their patient. I don't understand blaming PMSing for mood swing or using it as an excuse, as it seems to me mostly to open women up to added disdain from men. It is unlikely that unless I actually have hotflashes that melt me into the ground like the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz, that I'll ever mention, as so many of my friends do "I'm having a hot flash" (happily, I don't think I've have any hot flashes)

I am a firm believer that if one is old enough to have sex, one is old enough to shut up about it, since it isn't anyone else's business.

[Jinger Jar]

I could be writhing in pain from cramps and would never tell anyone, except my husband and maybe amy sister (maybe) unless that person were a medical practitioner and I was their patient. I don't understand blaming PMSing for mood swing or using it as an excuse, as it seems to me mostly to open women up to added disdain from men. It is unlikely that unless I actually have hotflashes that melt me into the ground like the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz, that I'll ever mention, as so many of my friends do "I'm having a hot flash" (happily, I don't think I've have any hot flashes)

I am a firm believer that if one is old enough to have sex, one is old enough to shut up about it, since it isn't anyone else's business.

The problem is with those who disdain women for having painful, debilitating symptoms that accompany their menstrual cycles, not the women who suffer them and talk about it.

[salex]

[]

The problem is with those who disdain women for having painful, debilitating symptoms that accompany their menstrual cycles, not the women who suffer them and talk about it.

[yewchapel]

Maybe because it's natural to want empathy when you're feeling less than great? People do the same when they have a cold or hayfever, for example.

And hate to break it to you but PMT/PMS/whatever term you use has been well-known for centuries, with many ancient folk remedies recorded.

[dawbs]

If there's not discussion about it, how does that help ANYONE find a solution?

A few decades ago, no one talked about infertility. It wasn't that people weren't infertile, it just wasn't 'seemly' to discuss it (and there was heaping judgement to go with the discussion).

That lack of discussion translated into lack of research dollars, lack of *GOOD* information being spread, and, IMO, all around more heartache.

The 'modern' discussion on the subject (which, like all 'public' discussions' is less than perfect) lets people know that 1-they're not alone 2-possible solutions (lots of busybodies, of course, but there's also GOOD information that exists and is accessable now) and 3-public awareness--that leads to funding, research, etc.

Making it 'secret' doesn't help anyone.

Using it as an excuse is assy and obnoxious, but awareness isnt' the same as making it an excuse.

[Bookworm89]

:::warily raises hand:::

I've never had PMS, never had any "female problems" at all except a few days of mild cramps when I was a teenager. Just lucky, I guess. Please don't kill me. ;)

This thread is mind boggling! My parents weren't big on passing on the info, but I always knew how to look things up. Despite what the library posters claimed, reading is apparently not fundiemental.

I second both parts.

Never had the ups and down most women go through (my best used to get ticked at me when we were teenagers because she would be bedridden for 2-3 days and I hardly noticed (and still don't) when it came around each month. Mine barely last 4 days and a little cramping the first day is usually the best indicator it is going to start that morning.

My mom never explained anything to me but I new where a dictionary was and how to look up books in the library and since I was a curious child that's how I learned (probably needed more supervision as some of the stuff would have been better learned a few years after I initially read them). It boggles my mind that fundies can't just do a google search or a library search and enlighten themselves.

[Hane]

My daughter's (female) science showed her some low-impact exercises to do in order to deal with cramps by stimulating circulation in the lower abdomen. They worked well for moderately bad discomfort.

[SpeakNow]

My daughter's (female) science showed her some low-impact exercises to do in order to deal with cramps by stimulating circulation in the lower abdomen. They worked well for moderately bad discomfort.

Could you please share those exercises? I'd be very very grateful.

Also, I remember in the fifth grade we has our first "health class" about puberty. After class, one of my best guy friends pulled me aside. He asked me if females lay eggs before they get their periods.

We still joke about that today.

[Rachel333]

From what I understand, PMS is really exaggerated and most women don't get it ([link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premenstrual_syndrome]wikipedia[/link] says 2-10%). Some professionals believe it's a socially constructed disorder rather than a physical one, the result of people blaming women's normal emotions on their hormones. I can see how the power of suggestion might make some women think their own emotions are the result of hormones. Whether it's real or not, it's definitely been used by misogynists to suggest that women are not as stable and capable as men. I actually read one Christian marriage book that told husbands that their wives are only rational one day a month and are influenced by hormones the rest of the time.

I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's experience, though; I just think that's interesting. I know I'm a bit unusual in that I've never felt like I've had any PMS symptoms, and I have short, painless periods that I only get about once every two months (which is normal and healthy, according to doctors). I normally avoid talking about periods with other women because I know it would be pretty obnoxious to hear that when you're commiserating about period cramps.

[Muriel]

From what I understand, PMS is really exaggerated and most women don't get it ([link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premenstrual_syndrome]wikipedia[/link] says 2-10%). Some professionals believe it's a socially constructed disorder rather than a physical one, the result of people blaming women's normal emotions on their hormones. I can see how the power of suggestion might make some women think their own emotions are the result of hormones. Whether it's real or not, it's definitely been used by misogynists to suggest that women are not as stable and capable as men. I actually read one Christian marriage book that told husbands that their wives are only rational one day a month and are influenced by hormones the rest of the time.

I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's experience, though; I just think that's interesting. I know I'm a bit unusual in that I've never felt like I've had any PMS symptoms, and I have short, painless periods that I only get about once every two months (which is normal and healthy, according to doctors). I normally avoid talking about periods with other women because I know it would be pretty obnoxious to hear that when you're commiserating about period cramps.

That would explain why this is unheard of here.

It make me think of another socially constructed disorder we have in France.

During summer a lot of French women have what we call "heavy legs syndrom", a lot of women suffer from it, everybody knows about it, we have medications to help with the discomfort and so on.

Those medications used to cost a lot to our beloved "sécurité sociale", but a few years ago, studies about this so called disease were made and it appeared that only French women were suffering from it :? it was not a real disease and the medications were totally ineffective (placebo effect anyone ?)... So, now we have to pay for those medications and guess what, they are hardly ever prescribed now :lol:

[Jinger Jar]

The problem is with those who disdain women for having painful, debilitating symptoms that accompany their menstrual cycles, not the women who suffer them and talk about it.

Maybe, but unless one is talking about it looking for a solution, what is the point? PMS was never a "thing" until it was used as a murder defense in England, as I recall, and something that pharma companies could sell stuff to treat. And after that, it was used as an excuse to be a bitch and and excuse not to take women seriously.

Honestly, who wants to hear about other people's pains in general conversation? I've been told by women I didn't know, at a luncheon, that they were on their period. Why did I need to know this? I don't need to know if the person across from me at lunch has painful hemmeroids or is miserable because they are constipated (either of these might make them feel irritated as well)--why do I have to hear that someone has cramps, unless that person is very close to me?

And, yes, men should not dismiss women for having pain, but when a cottage industry is made of "leave me alone, I'm bitchy cause I'm PMSing"

it should be no suprise that men view that as proof that women can't be trusted to control themselves.

**************************************************************************************

I think there's two different things going on here: people who give out too much intimate/personal information in a public sphere, and women talking about medical problems related to their menstrual cycles.

About the TMI people - you deal with them nodding sympathetically and guiding the conversation away from their hemorrhoids or bloody blisters to a topic more palatable.

But a woman who says she's PMSing is like a women who says her arthritis is bothering her or a guy who tells you he threw his back out last night. They're may be telling you this because they're not at their best, perhaps more than a little grumpy, and if they seem distracted or snappy it's not you, it's them. It's a heads up. Or they may be telling you as a way to get advice on how to deal with it.

Like you, I don't particularly care to hear all about a casual acquaintance's medical problems. But the way to address it isn't to silence the women who are suffering. I'm old enough to remember when words like menstruation, pregnant, and period were "dirty words" that got you sent to the office if you were a school child, and respectable women never, ever said them within a man's earshot. Feminine products were kept behind a counter at the store, wrapped in brown paper so that no one could see what it was, and you waited for a female sales clerk to get them for you because the the men wouldn't touch them. Periods were just not things one talked about, as if they didn't exist, except for The One Talk you got from your mother when you were 11 or 12.

God only knows how many women put up with PMS and debilitating menstrual cycles in silence because they were too ashamed to share what they were going through, even with their sisters or closest female friends.

Doctors either told you you were fabricating or exaggerating your symptoms, or that everything would be fine once you went through childbirth. On my first gynecological visit, in 1974 when I was 14, the doctor laughingly told me that I my breast tenderness, bloating, and period pains would magically disappear the first time my husband smacked me around for using my period as an excuse for not having dinner on the table. And as late as the early 1980s doctors at the university's student medical center told my friends and me that PMS was a condition made up by advertisers and marketers to sell unnecessary medicines to gullible women. All we needed, they told us, and put our periods out of our minds and our pain and suffering would go away.

And men have never needed women actually talking about menstruation, menopause and problems accompanying them to distrust and dismiss us. My grandmother's feminist ire was invoked when she went to her doctor because of problems she was experiencing with menopause. Her doctor told her she was looking for an excuse to get out of sex and housework. He told her to have my grandfather make an appointment with him, and when my grandfather did, the doctor asked my grandfather if he wanted my grandmother to have a hysterectomy. According to this doctor, a hysterectomy would eliminate any reason for his wife to complain about her "womanly problems". When my grandfather said he wasn't sure he wanted to go down that road, the doctor wrote him a prescription for tranquilizers and told him to sneak them into my grandmother when she "acted up." He also told my grandfather that if he ever changed his mind about a hysterectomy to bring my grandmother back to him. They would tell my grandmother that she needed "exploratory surgery" and he would take out her uterus without her ever being the wiser.

This happened in the late 1950s. Dismissing or downplaying problems that accompany having a female reproductive system is nothing new.

[CynicMom]

My grandmother's feminist ire was invoked when she went to her doctor because of problems she was experiencing with menopause. Her doctor told her she was looking for an excuse to get out of sex and housework. He told her to have my grandfather make an appointment with him, and when my grandfather did, the doctor asked my grandfather if he wanted my grandmother to have a hysterectomy. According to this doctor, a hysterectomy would eliminate any reason for his wife to complain about her "womanly problems". When my grandfather said he wasn't sure he wanted to go down that road, the doctor wrote him a prescription for tranquilizers and told him to sneak them into my grandmother when she "acted up." He also told my grandfather that if he ever changed his mind about a hysterectomy to bring my grandmother back to him. They would tell my grandmother that she needed "exploratory surgery" and he would take out her uterus without her ever being the wiser.

This happened in the late 1950s. Dismissing or downplaying problems that accompany having a female reproductive system is nothing new.

What the ever-loving FUCK?! Jesus I'm glad I was born in the 80s.

[salex]

Maybe because it's natural to want empathy when you're feeling less than great? People do the same when they have a cold or hayfever, for example.

And hate to break it to you but PMT/PMS/whatever term you use has been well-known for centuries, with many ancient folk remedies recorded.

Yeah, and do you want to hear some stranger talk about their post nasal drip over lunch--or their annoying itch? It isn't as though information about how to manage pain isn't all over magazines, tv and the internet-- do I have to hear about various maladies from misc people?

ANd, if women need extra empathy for 5 days before their period and 5 days of their period because they are cranky and crampy , then how can we defend ourselves against the stereotypes that women can't/don't pull their weight in the workplace?

[Cheetah]

Doctors either told you you were fabricating or exaggerating your symptoms, or that everything would be fine once you went through childbirth. On my first gynecological visit, in 1974 when I was 14, the doctor laughingly told me that I my breast tenderness, bloating, and period pains would magically disappear the first time my husband smacked me around for using my period as an excuse for not having dinner on the table. And as late as the early 1980s doctors at the university's student medical center told my friends and me that PMS was a condition made up by advertisers and marketers to sell unnecessary medicines to gullible women. All we needed, they told us, and put our periods out of our minds and our pain and suffering would go away.

Ugh, what an ass that doctor was!

But about the childbirth thing, it totally worked for me. I used to have very painful cramps (though have never had much of the PMS moodiness) as a teen and in my early 20s. But ever since having my first child I either get no cramps, or if I do, it's a dull backache rather than incapacitating stomach aches.

[Hane]

Could you please share those exercises? I'd be very very grateful.

Here's the one I remember, and used to do myself:

Stand up straight next to a chair (kitchen or dining room type). With one hand, hold onto the back of the chair for stability, then slowly and steadily swing your opposite leg back and forth. Switch sides after a while.

Re PMS: I've always suffered from bouts of depression. Sometimes they'd be much worse than others (feelings of worthless, suicidal ideation) and I started keeping track of them. Surprise! The horrible days all popped up during PMS, dwindled during my period, and disappeared when I was post-menstrual. They got worse and worse as I approached 40, so I went to my ob-gyn. I asked him, "Do you think it would be nuts if I went to a psychiatrist about this?" He said it would be far from nuts to take care of something that was bothering me so much, and wrote me a referral.

Prozac turned out to be the solution for me, and I bless the people who developed it. My therapist told me that fluoxetine (Prozac's non-brand name) was originally dreamed up as a treatment for pre-menstrual depression.

The same ob-gyn, who was old enough to be my father (this was about 20 years ago), told me, "PMS and lousy periods are nothing new. The only difference is that, a generation ago, lots of women could just put the kids on the school bus in the morning and then take some Midol and lie down for a few hours. Nowadays, most women have jobs and can't do that kind of thing anymore."

[lilah]

Basic child development like the ezzos thinking that babies are spoiled if you respond to their needs or that it's developmentally appropriate to punish a child under 2.

[lorem ipsum]

My mom (not a fundy) believes that women's breasts get bigger when they "let men/boys play with them." (her words)

I know at least 4 grown women - and one guy - who believe that your breasts will get bigger if a guy sucks on your nipples (as in actually increase your cup size). So clearly big breasted women let a lot of men do that. :cray-cray:

I also know one woman who believes that a woman's hips change after she has sex, and that's how you can tell if someone's not a virgin. :wtf:

[salex]

Doctors either told you you were fabricating or exaggerating your symptoms, or that everything would be fine once you went through childbirth. On my first gynecological visit, in 1974 when I was 14, the doctor laughingly told me that I my breast tenderness, bloating, and period pains would magically disappear the first time my husband smacked me around for using my period as an excuse for not having dinner on the table. And as late as the early 1980s doctors at the university's student medical center told my friends and me that PMS was a condition made up by advertisers and marketers to sell unnecessary medicines to gullible women. All we needed, they told us, and put our periods out of our minds and our pain and suffering would go away.

I have to ask.. Where the HELL did you live? I lived in rural Kansas (25 in my graduating class) and as a Sophomore in 1974, my friend's gyno put her on the pill for her cramps, and it worked. Her mother gave her some song and dance that they were not as strong as real birth controls, so she shouldn't have sex--which seemed unlikely to us, but she wasn't having sex anyway.

And men have never needed women actually talking about menstruation, menopause and problems accompanying them to distrust and dismiss us.

The fact they have always used it doesn't mean that the very common use of PMS for being in a foul mood isn't damaging.

[

quote]My grandmother's feminist ire was invoked when she went to her doctor because of problems she was experiencing with menopause. Her doctor told her she was looking for an excuse to get out of sex and housework. He told her to have my grandfather make an appointment with him, and when my grandfather did, the doctor asked my grandfather if he wanted my grandmother to have a hysterectomy. According to this doctor, a hysterectomy would eliminate any reason for his wife to complain about her "womanly problems". When my grandfather said he wasn't sure he wanted to go down that road, the doctor wrote him a prescription for tranquilizers and told him to sneak them into my grandmother when she "acted up." He also told my grandfather that if he ever changed his mind about a hysterectomy to bring my grandmother back to him. They would tell my grandmother that she needed "exploratory surgery" and he would take out her uterus without her ever being the wiser. This happened in the late 1950s. Dismissing or downplaying problems that accompany having a female reproductive system is nothing new.

These kinds of stories should be made public whenever women's rights to their own body are questioned. The secret or forced hysterectomy or sterilization was also not uncommon for sisters of people with down's syndrome or mental illnesses, around the same time period.

Kansas is trying to make similar laws today. Unless it has changed (which I doubt) the most recently passed anti abortion bill probably includes a clause that makes it legal for physicians to lie to women patients about test results and either fetal or maternal health risks IF they believe the woman might choose an abortion. AND, the woman can't sue for wrongful birth for a severely disabled child when the test results are not reported, nor to any injuries to her because of carrying the pregnancy to term. However, her owner husband can sue if she actually dies. -- Per Huffington that clause is still pending in a separate bill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/0 ... 58185.html

[singsingsing]

PMS is unfortunately very real. I get that it's easy to question its validity when you've never experienced it, but it is real and it sucks. There are things you can do to alleviate it (diet, exercise, mental health and so on). Hormones do fluctuate during your cycle and for many women this manifests as what we would classically think of as 'PMS'. For women who have underlying problems such as anxiety or depression it can be even worse. I get that PMS is sometimes exaggerated and that men have used it to disparage women, but brushing it off as a social construct is not helpful, either.

[BoomerLynn]

What the ever-loving FUCK?! Jesus I'm glad I was born in the 80s.

I second this wholeheartedly.

[morfydd]

The difference between cramps and "Mittelschmerz" is pretty indistinguishable for some of us--I've had both and it can be hard to distinguish. And in spite of what people tell you about it being 'ovulation pain', it can strike at any time during the cycle.

Post surgery, I get Mittelschmerz pain for a few days before my cycle. And a few days after. And sometimes during (I can now tell the difference between it and cramps. I think.)

Interesting. I'm not sure I've ever had Mittelschmerz that I could notice. For me, cramps feel clearly like muscles doing something they shouldn't do, and Pilates and Kegel exercises between my periods diminish cramping, I assume because they strengthen the muscles. (Don't ask me how that corresponds to the fact that the cramps went away entirely after cyst removal, as that would imply a different pain mechanism. The workings of my body are occasionally irritatingly opaque.) How does Mittelschmerz differ in feeling for you?