The Modesty Survey For Those Who Have Never Heard Of It

[debrand]

From another thread, I discovered that some of you don't know about the Modesty Survey so I decided to post a link to it. The results are troubling but this question in particular bothered me.

Immodest clothing is not a problem (for you) when a girl in your own family wears it.

28.9% Strongly disagree with that statement and 33% disagree with it! About 17% are neutral. How can you be neutral? Most people do not find the siblings that they grew up with sexually attractive. If I walk in on my brother changing, my thoughts aren't sexual.

Age 24

Maybe I am alone in this, but my "Hey! Female skin!" radar doesn't stop to check DNA first.

Age 23

A young lady, regardless of your relation to her, can be a stumbling block/temptation to a young man. Sort of a disgusting thought, but men, if not walking in the Spirit everday, can be wolves.

and

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I think that the extreme emphasis on not thinking sexual thoughts distorts young people's view about sexuality. Other young people sort through conflicting emotions about sexuality and learn how to function in a modern world. These young men are taught that any stray thought could be dangerous so even noticing that their sister is developing is bad.

therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

[ILoveJellybeans]

Ewww

I blame the focus on modesty and repressing sexuality.

If the kids were taught that it is normal to have sexual thoughts, they wouldnt feel like wanking every time they see their sister's knees.

If they didnt make every part of the female body seem like a forbidden and dirty thing, they wouldnt have so much of a problem with men being "defrauded" by seeing womens knees. If you make things seem naughty, it makes it more tempting, and if you teach men they are incredibly sexual and are just one sight of cleavage away from raping or ripping your pants off and wanking right where you are, thats what theyre going to be. What they dont realise, is that non fundies dont see things in that way, to the average straight non fundie guy, seeing a womans knee isnt a big deal, or walking in on their sister changing, or a slight bit of cleavage, as theyre used to it and dont see it as sexual.

I do wonder how much incest happens in fundie families, with all this repression I bet its higher than average.

[yewchapel]

Ultimately, it just guarantees extremely unhealthy, fearful and mistrusting relationships between these young men and women, always afraid of making the other stumble or stumbling themselves. So sad.

[debrand]

Young fundie men must feel like potential monsters who will transform into crazy, out of control rapists if they view a woman's breasts. At least that is the impression that I get from some of these guys.

[Savoring Samsara]

Wasn't there a quote on that same survey that was something along the lines of, "Even my mom can cause me to lust if she's not careful in how she dresses"?

[burntnorton]

So our womanliness is a tool Satan uses to cause them to sin by thinking wrong thoughts. Girls' bodies are tools of Satan. Nothin[/s]g mispgynistic or dehumanizing there.

Seriously, these boys really just need to be taught that it's okay to rub one out when they need to. All that retained semen is clouding their brains.

[debrand]

Wasn't there a quote on that same survey that was something along the lines of, "Even my mom can cause me to lust if she's not careful in how she dresses"?

Yep

Age 22

It may be less of a problem, but it is still a problem. Family members are not completely unattractive to us; if they were, God would not have needed to explicitly ban incest.

Age 18

Even my Mom can attract my attention if she isn't careful.

It is actually weird to go through the survey and discover how many innocent things are immodest

Seeing a girl stretching (e.g. arching the back, reaching the arms back, and sticking out the chest) is a stumbling block.

40% agree and 16% strongly agree with the above statement

A purse with the strap diagonally across the chest draws too much attention to the bust.

35.2% agree with this while over 12% strongly agree

Age 21

Depends on how it is worn. If the weight is in the back so that it emphasizes the valley in the bust, then yes, it is immodest. But if the weight is on the side, then no, it is not immodest.

Age 18

Yeah, I remember seeing a lady with a strap like that when I was a little younger. It was definitely a distraction. =P

Age 21

Depends upon how heavy the bag is. If the strap pushes on the shirt such that the breasts are separated as one looks down, it's immodest.

edited if for capitalization

[docmom]

I have a feeling that an 80 year old woman sitting in a chair dresed in a burqa would be considered defrauding to some these guys. When will someone tell them that the problem with their defrauding thoughts is theirs? No-one can control our thoughts.

[debrand]

I have a feeling that an 80 year old woman sitting in a chair dresed in a burqa would be considered defrauding to some these guys. When will someone tell them that the problem with their defrauding thoughts is theirs? No-one can control our thoughts.

Or that having a sexual thought isn't bad. A young man who has sexual thoughts about an octogenarian is weird but not harmful as long as he doesn't believe the 80 year grandmother is causing his thoughts or owes him anything because of his thoughts.

I was discussing this with my son today and came to the conclusion that the fundie men are the flip side of guys who openly leer at women. Both view women as responsible for their desires and expect the women to act accordingly. Both are still demeaning to women.

[burntnorton]

One of the base problems is the very idea that sexual thoughts about anyone othee than your spouse are sinful. You know why we have sexual thoughts? Biology. You really can't control whether you have feelings of sexual attraction. You can only control how you act on them and, to a certain extent, how much time you devote to them. I feel almost as sorry for the boys raised in this environment as for the girls. "Set up to fail" doesnt even begin to describe the situation.

[pookel]

I remember a time when my parents took me aside and told me I needed to wrap myself in a towel after getting out of the bath before going to my room to put on clothes. I don't remember if they mentioned anything about my brother to me, but I do remember him seeing me naked and getting embarrassed around that time.

The difference is that this was when I was 11 and he was 13, and I was just getting breasts and he was just starting to notice girls. Feeling awkward about seeing your sister's breasts when you're both just hitting puberty is normal. But thinking she looks hot when you're in your 20s? That's really fucking creepy.

[MysteryHaggis]

Yes, better to be on the safe side than regret it later. Same with white shirts. Be careful you won't be in an environment where it could become immodest (e.g. water balloon fight)

That sounds like someone used the survey as an excuse to fantasise...

If you act like you are "selling yourself" guys will pick up on that. Walk like you are a princess of the Kingdom of God.

:angry-banghead: oh noez! No walking in way that makes my incredibly repressed, ironically pervy mind wander! U iz whore!

The open questions section is interesting. a lot more balanced than I would have expected (except for the ultrajesus tone)

The ultimate responsibility is absolutely my own. No matter how a woman is dressed, it is my responsibility to treat both her and myself with respect and to honor Christ with all my actions. If I ever feel that I might not be able to control myself or my thoughts, it's my responsibility to leave the situation. Guys who blame women for their own bad behavior are a major problem. Furthermore, it's my responsibility to dress and act modestly as well; women have their own God-given sexuality as well, and if I ask them to help me control my libido, I am honor-bound to do the same to help my sisters in Christ.

Fair enough, if that actually happens in reality.

[Closed Womb]

Ewww

I blame the focus on modesty and repressing sexuality.

If the kids were taught that it is normal to have sexual thoughts, they wouldnt feel like wanking every time they see their sister's knees.

If they didnt make every part of the female body seem like a forbidden and dirty thing, they wouldnt have so much of a problem with men being "defrauded" by seeing womens knees. If you make things seem naughty, it makes it more tempting, and if you teach men they are incredibly sexual and are just one sight of cleavage away from raping or ripping your pants off and wanking right where you are, thats what theyre going to be. What they dont realise, is that non fundies dont see things in that way, to the average straight non fundie guy, seeing a womans knee isnt a big deal, or walking in on their sister changing, or a slight bit of cleavage, as theyre used to it and dont see it as sexual.

I do wonder how much incest happens in fundie families, with all this repression I bet its higher than average.

ITA!

I've never had a sexual thought about a family member, but maybe that is because I was allowed (and expected!) to have sexual thoughts about other people. This whole thing reminds me of the Flowers in the Attic books that were popular in the 1980's. I know that is fiction, but in the cases of extreme isolation, I can see where the only flesh you see is the only flesh you are turned on by. Ewww. EWWWW.

Just in case there is anyone out there that wants to go back and find pop literary culture from 3 decades ago, the pertinent part of Flowers in two sentences:

I don't remember all the plotlines, but abused children were left in the attic to fend for themselves. The oldest brother and sister eventually felt a sexual attraction for each other, which followed them throughout the rest of the book series (when they were out of the attic.)

[salex]

Yep

It is actually weird to go through the survey and discover how many innocent things are immodest

40% agree and 16% strongly agree with the above statement

35.2% agree with this while over 12% strongly agree

edited if for capitalization

This is why there is no limit to how covered a woman must be for those who blame women's clothing and women themselves for men's hormones. The eye slit in a buqua may reveal too much, once that is the only evidence of the woman. Not to mention the scent of a woman (seductive if she smells like perfume, like a woman, like sweat--the fashions have changed over the years)

Guys-- men are aroused by women. That is how it works. Aroused and "lusting over" are not neccesarily the same thing, unless you make it the same thing.

Stop being pigs--- this "modesty survey" sounds more and more like a way for fundies to imagine/share light porn "turn-ons" under the guise of condemning evil.

[GodsKnickers]

I guess the closest I came to incest in my family, being raised super fundie, was being molested by an uncle. Prior to that, it was a visiting evangelist. Good times.

My parents saw potential sin and lust and all of it, in everything. We weren't allowed to go to movies because of the 'whoreish' movie posters on the wall. Um what? My parents had never ever stepped foot inside a theatre. Had no idea about any of it. But their reasoning was that if a theatre showed an R/NC-17 rated movie, then the posters would reflect that. IE. if there was sex or portrayed sex in the film, then the posters would show that. So it was a den of iniquity. Couldn't get it through to them that the posters were in the open part, where everyone was, children included, so the posters would not show all the shit they were just certain it would. I saw my first movie at 17, because I snuck out with a girl I worked with. Soon as I left home, I went to movies all the time. When I had kids, we took them to the movies. My parents were horrified but we didn't give a rat's.

It was just an all around weird religion to grow up in. I still feel like it's a religion of fear, than of love. There was such fear of every little thing causing them to 'fall'. I could never figure out why this faith they were so hep on, wasn't stronger. Why everyone was so afraid of everything. It never ever made sense to me, any of it, not just this part - which is, I guess, why I'm not a fundie anymore, and never will be.

[Jinger Jar]

My stepdaughters are rapidly approaching the age when they'll be noticed by these lusting bundles of repressed hormones. The idea that their clothing and bodies could be dissected ad infinitum online angers me greatly. And if one of these creepsters ever dared approach one of them to chastise her about her clothing or her body or the way she carried herself, he would absorb the full impact of my protective instincts before he explained to a police officer why he thought his behavior was appropriate.

The girls have a half brother who is 16 and another who's 19. If I ever catch wind that these two young men are saying or doing things in their presence or to them directly that could in any way be construed sexual, the girls will not spend another minute in that household until a court-appointed psychologist testifies to a family court judge that they're not in danger there.

Funndie types are so big on taking personal responsibility. They're the first to tell a pregnant women that she should have kept her legs closed or a homeless men that he needs to get a job. But when it comes to sexual attraction, they're more than willing to blame everyone but themselves for their thoughts, feelings, and urges. Is that hypocrisy I smell on the breeze?

[Peppercorn]

I want a Modesty Report for Menz.

Seeing a manly man stretching (raising arms, flexing shoulders, thrusting chest and defining a six-pack of abs) is a stumbling block.

46% agree, 40% strongly agree, 14% close their eyes and think only of scrubbing frumpers on a washboard.

Pocket bible stowed in pack pocket of khakis provokes lustful thoughts of male buttocks.

67% agree, 32% strongly agree, 1% insist "Praise Jesus! It's a bible, not a buttock!"

Zippers draw undue attention to an immodestly-sized bulge.

33% agree, 40% strongly agree, 27% must engage in studious examination to determine the true size of "immodest".

[caito]

I rolled my eyes so hard when I read the comments. Some of them are downright skeevy.

[Syd+Marky]

I wish I understood why anyone would assume that if a woman is dressed to accentuate her attributes that it means she is trying to attract male attention.I cannot believe how many commenters don't see that it's possible for us women to want to look good for ourselves.The same people who push modesty are the ones who put such emphasis on women looking and acting feminine.So, we're supposed to wear potato sack dresses and have rupunzel length hair, while talking in a sickly sweet baby voice, and playing damsel in distress(or rather the damsel who needs Daddy or DH to help navigate our brains).Im sorry,but when I get dressed,it never crosses my mind what my almost-11-yr-old son would think about how Im dressed.I wear mens ribbed tanks with athletic/sweatshorts in the summer, and tee's or tanks with a hoody and yoga pants, or jeans in the winter/fall.Pretty mainstream for a 34 yr old mom,but definitely provocative in the commenters opinions.

Age 16-..."Immodesty in a mind surrendered to evil turns the woman into a thing......it removes personality,true beauty,being made in Gods image, and leaves only a thing that satisfies evil desires.."

.."removes personality"?Isn't that what happens when you dress everyone the same?

.."turns the woman into a thing"?

Sure,maybe-if thats what you're teaching your kids.

..."leaves only a thing to satisfy evil desires"?

Do men never objectify their wives-even during sex?Does sexual desire change from evil to sacred with a couple I do's?

Age14-"A family member can still be a stumbling block for a man."

What kind of message does this send to little girls,not to mention incest survivors?And what about Fathers and Daughters?Are we,as girls or women responsible for incestuous thoughts-even those of their parents'??!

Age17-"Any female can be a stumbling block to guys"

No Shit?!Exactly-any female,nomatter how they dress,walk,talk,etc., can excite an adolescent male.Boys of a certain age will entertain certain thoughts,and all the nurture in the world cant override what nature intended there.

[twin2]

Here you go fundie men:

Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Seems to me if you follow the word of the Lord, the onus is on YOU to control your urges. If the slightest bit of shin or shoulder causes you to loose your sensibilities, your ability to be a future headship needs to be called into question.

[Claddagh]

Some of the responses on there are incredibly creepy.

These guys are getting freaked out over the idea of a woman's chest saying breasts are only meant for the woman's husbands. Our chests don't go from flat and non-existant to magically inflate once we get married guys!

In today's society, curves are starting to mean less and less. Our culture sexualizes women who have a boyish form more than those who have a more feminine form.

Every woman's body has a different shape. Does that mean that women who aren't as cuvy aren't "feminine" and don't have "feminine form." On the flip side, a girl who does have this "feminine form" is attacked by these same people.

You can't win with them.

[debrand]

I guess the closest I came to incest in my family, being raised super fundie, was being molested by an uncle. Prior to that, it was a visiting evangelist. Good times.

.

I'm so sorry that happened to you.