Religion and alcohol

[YPestis]

I was watching Ken Burn's PBS documentary "Prohibition" recently and it talked about the religious division alcohol produced in the US. Up until the 19th century, the lack of clean drinking water meant it was common to put a bit of alcohol into the drinking water. This "grog" was drank by everyone, from morning until night. What changed was the introduction of hard liquor. Before, people would drink what was essentially watered down beer with few negative side effect. However, with the introduction of whiskey and other strong drinks, alcoholism became an increasing problem. Conservatives as well as progressives began to see alcohol has a social scourge.

The religious institutions prominent at that time included Baptists and Methodists and they became prominent prohibition crusaders. Drinking was a much bigger way of life in the cities than in the rural areas. As such, many small, protestant towns banned alcohol on their own decades before Prohibition. However, churches, along with other groups, wanted to push for a nationwide ban.

It was in this environment that Catholics started immigrating to the US en mass. The Irish and Italian immigrants saw the attack on alcohol as an attack on their way of life. The documentary supported this assessment, pointing out that many prohibition crusaders were motivated by anti-Catholic sentiments. The protestant churches wasn't pushing for prohibition for their own people (as many were already teetotalers), it was for those 'damn Catholics' who were all drunks and who were useless with all their drinking.

To be fair, progressives also saw a ban as a cure for abusive husbands who drank their wages away. Southern whites saw it as a cure for 'lazy blacks". In effect, every prohibition group saw it as a cure for another group's perceived shortcomings.

We all know how Prohibition ended. However, the end of a legal ban didn't end the religious division on alcohol. To this day, some Protestant churches remain anti-alcohol. Protestant fundies seem to have taken this to heart (Jesus turned water into grape juice?!). Mormons also got on the anti-alcohol wagon during the pre-Prohibition era and are anti-alcohol to this day.

This religious division in alcohol is fascinating to me because there doesn't appear to be a religious basis for an alcohol ban. Why is that? Why do fundies and some conservative churches still rail against alcohol usage? Every time they bring up alcohol, it's always to talk of alcohol abuse. There's only mention of abuse or abstinence. I guess that's the same attitude many fundies have towards pre-marital sex, and any number of "worldly" things. However, alcohol's historical usefulness is never acknowledge, and people seem to be religiously motivated by their anti-alcohol stance despite talk of wine drinking in the Bible. Any thoughts on this?

[ILoveJellybeans]

I dont know, I just think fundies want to take away everything enjoyable and search for bits of the Bible that could be interpreted to mean that somethings not allowed.

[divadivine]

I'm Catholic.... pass the communion wine!

[Ellimenopy]

I think that, in their own way, Baptists want to be and want to be seen as a plain people. They only subtly distinguish themselves by dress, but they do tend to shun all sorts of things that they see as too frivolous, dangerous, or distracting, including dancing, sexual looseness, and even education. Alcohol, as the fueler of raucous parties the world over, does not fit their brand any more than bikinis do. Simple country folks have no need of such things.

[debrand]

I think that it is easier to go to extremes then try to practice moderation. Extremes provide clear cut rules so that no thinking is involved. It also provides a reason to be superior and look down on others who don't follow the rules.

Because I am strange-very strange- I like graveyards. Once a city worker gave my family a free tour of the local graveyard and he told us that some tombstones have false backs that allowed prohibition moonshiners to place their product in the tombstones. The buyer would open the false back, take out the alcohol and leave money behind. I guess alcohol runners were a pretty honest group.

[ThatSnark]

The ELCA church my headship grew up in had an Oktoberfest every year, with kegs of good German beer on tap. Beer was/is as much a cultural thing as "alcohol," but no one drank to excess. My LCMS minister was a teetotaler, so no alcohol for us. Now we're UU and wine is available at any good committee meeting. :D

I think in the US there's a history of the conservative churches being part of the temperance movement a century ago, and they've never quite outrun that as part of their church culture.

[Dandruff]

Why do fundies and some conservative churches still rail against alcohol usage?

It dampens inhibitions and guilt, which makes it liquid sin.

[yewchapel]

I don't have a problem with people who are teetotal, but wine in the Bible is a symbol of God's goodness and almost always has positive connotations (eg at the wedding at Cana). Christian teetotalism that has a religious basis behind it puzzles me profoundly, I must admit.

[samurai_sarah]

Uhm, yes, there were things like small-ale, which is comparable to light beer in our times. But stronger drinks were around before the 19th century. "Branntwein" or brandy was known during the 30 Years' War (1618-1648) and gin came to England with William of Orange in 1689- brandy and whisky were available before, but gin was exceptionally cheap. Suddenly, you could get dead drunk for the fraction of a penny in England, which wasn't possible before. So, that's been around in Europe for a bit. But even then they had "sobriety campaigns" (see Hogarth's "Gin Lane").

For an interesting, although possibly not totally accurate example about alcohol consumption in the 17th century, I refer to the "Supersizers":

TCfx98Ei5lM

The rest of the episode is up on youtube as well, and it does deal with drink, albeit on the sidelines. At least in Europe, I'd say that people spent most of their time drinking mildly or totally alcoholic drinks, because water wasn't safe. Having said that, I wouldn't want to sit down drinking with one of my ancestors. They could probably drink me under the table in no time at all, and feel fine, because they'd be used to it.

edited for clarity

edited again: An interesting book about how gin took over England is "Craze: Gin and Debauchery in an Age of Reason" (2003) by Jennifer Warren. It's a bit sensationalistic, but does a decent job of explaining circumstances.

[louisa05]

IME, in today's fundy and evangelical world banning alcohol is part of the general black and white thinking. They simply do not understand moderation. Many that I know truly believe that one drink will lead immediately to alcoholism. For everyone who ever indulges. End of discussion. That belief then becomes the way to find a biblical basis for avoiding alcohol as the bible does address that drunkenness is wrong.

[Lady]

I think that, in their own way, Baptists want to be and want to be seen as a plain people. They only subtly distinguish themselves by dress, but they do tend to shun all sorts of things that they see as too frivolous, dangerous, or distracting, including dancing, sexual looseness, and even education. Alcohol, as the fueler of raucous parties the world over, does not fit their brand any more than bikinis do. Simple country folks have no need of such things.

That is an interesting observation but I can see evidence of Baptists as "mainstream plain" for lack of a better phrase. The Amish are an offshoot of the Anabaptist, and as you pointed out both Baptists and Amish embrace a simple life, though to a different degree. I do wonder if geographical attitudes also play into it, do you think Southern culture influences Baptists or is it the other way around?

[Lady]

I think many groups in the coming years will drop the prohibition attitudes and instead focus their all or nothing attitudes on a more contemporary form of overindulgence, obesity. I can see the transition being very easy to go from demonizing alcohol and drunks to food and fat people.

[yewchapel]

As far as I know, Baptists in the UK have not traditionally shunned alcohol but Methodism and the Salvation Army (which grew out of Methodism) has, although nowadays many Methodists do drink occasionally. I can see 'mainstream plain' applied to both Baptists and Methodists though, and certainly the Salvation Army.

[AnywhereButHere]

I don't know that they would drop their aversion to drinking, but I can see them adding on an aversion to food indulgence. It's one more way they can show their "superiority" to and difference from the heathen horde they see as surrounding them. You can see it in the influx of healthy recipies and all natural food advice that's become prevalent in a lot of their blogs.

[AVENues]

These people preach about self control but they would not recognize self control if it kicked them in the butt!

They don't drink - they don't want to learn how to enjoy drinking responsibly.

They don't smoke - that's fine. Except that I love smoking cigars sometimes.

No dancing because they imagine ALL dancing is the 2 men 1 woman sandwich half naked. Ever heard about folk dancing? Like Irish, Spanish, German, Jewish, Russian, whatever folk dancing? And also if it's something sexy... they don't want to control themselves. It would cause them to sin with thoughts and that is punishable, and so is the one that "caused" it. :roll:

All they are left with is food and sex. They cannot do any of these with moderation either.

[Lady]

These people preach about self control but they would not recognize self control if it kicked them in the butt!

After all, the abstainers have "self-control" with sex.

[Savoring Samsara]

Episcopalians are definitely okay with alcohol. I've heard it said that "wherever four Episcopalians are gathered, there's always a fifth."

[salex]

My family was and many still are teetotalers. My generation less so than the last several. I know in my family, my mother's side was Lutheran, which would not automatically be against alcohol, however, apparently a great great grandfather in "the old country" was an alcoholic to the point the kids (in this very cold country) had no shoes (per the story I heard) His children passed their aversion to drunkenness/drink down through the line.

My father's side was also teetotalers, and I think much of that was related to the temperance union, women's rights and suffrage. There is a book An Army of Women: Gender and Politics in Gilded Age Kansas ( that touches on an anti alcohol stance of women in those movements. Not just the abuse of wives by drunk husbands, and the poverty of families of drunk husbands, but to defeat one specific argument against women voting--election days were known as drunken festivals "unfit" for women to see or participate in--by pulling booze out of the mix, that argument was nullified. That side of the family was also Methodist, which is a non drinking denomination, (traditionally, we were told Wesley saw a lot of alcoholism in his initial church, and viewed abstinence/temperance as beneficial, but people are told a lot of things.)

When I was a kid and went often to Methodist church, they were comparatively liberal, and none of the churches I attended were ever "evangelical" by any stretch of the imagination.

Cheers!

[debrand]

I think that, in their own way, Baptists want to be and want to be seen as a plain people. They only subtly distinguish themselves by dress, but they do tend to shun all sorts of things that they see as too frivolous, dangerous, or distracting, including dancing, sexual looseness, and even education. Alcohol, as the fueler of raucous parties the world over, does not fit their brand any more than bikinis do. Simple country folks have no need of such things.

I don't know if most southern Baptists ladies would be considered plain. Many of my Baptist female friends are quite conspicuous with makeup, nails and hair. That doesn't make them bad but it certainly is not plain. Those same women are split as to whether alcohol is permitted or not. I have Baptist friends who pay lip service to not drinking while they are at church but when they go out, they drink.

[dawbs]

Do you ever have to try to figure out how to explain a weirdness you grew up in? Like, you KNOW that it's weird and kinda nutty but it's also completely 'normal' to you?

Yep, that's what this conversation always does to me.

My mother was the youngest member of the WCTU for many years. I was part of the WCTU's kid program, LTL. I went to LTL camp. I paid for part of my college with the $ I won writing LTL essays and making posters for them every year, per mom's requirement, growing up (I always won something..but I think the competition wasn't very fierce ;) ). SOmewhere, out there, is probably a very badly done chick-track-level of flyer with one of my 4th grade-poster illustrations on it.

Not that it defends her trying to legislate other people's lives, but my mom suffered pretty terribly from the alcoholism and drug problems her family dealt with for most of her life. It's very much a Mrs. LoveJoy "think of the chiiilllldren" type thing--that yes, it infringes on the 'rights' of others, but it's worth it because of the pain and suffering it saves people from--a 'save them from themselves' type thing.

I'm saying this desperately poorly. Let me try again.

If I could go back 20 years in time and ask my mom (her views have evolved; I wouldn't get the same answer now), why she was against alcohol, she'd probably say it was a cost/benefit analysis. The 'cost' of alcohol being available was, potentially, devastating to people/children/families. The benefit of alcohol was (she would have said), non-existent--fleeting pleasure/enjoyment gets 0 value on that scale.

The 'cost' of prohibition/temperance/abstinence was, to her mind, 0 (we know that's not truly the case but, personal freedom also values a 0 and things like taxes, law enforcement to make it work and other cultures that 'need' alcohol doesn't count). the benefit was, huge.

She'd have seen it as 'mother church' doing a good thing by protecting the people from things they weren't adult enough to handle well--and would have made the mom-bad-parenting move of "well, even if YOU can handle playing with play-doh and not grinding it into the carpet, your baby sister can't, so, NO, no one gets play-doh" to anyone who said that her bad experience w/ alcoholic family wasn't a good reason to prohibit my scotch (although not at ALL in those words!)

[anniebgood]

During prohibition in Wisconsin, a great many breweries made side projects which home brewers could use to make their own beer. In 1926 the state passed a law that said they could make 2.75% beer. Home brew was usually stronger. Wineries in many states stayed alive because of communion wine making. With a strong German heritage, there was always some kind of beer in most homes, even though the temperance movement objected.

[salex]

I don't know if most southern Baptists ladies would be considered plain. Many of my Baptist female friends are quite conspicuous with makeup, nails and hair. That doesn't make them bad but it certainly is not plain. Those same women are split as to whether alcohol is permitted or not. I have Baptist friends who pay lip service to not drinking while they are at church but when they go out, they drink.

The Baptists I know best all drink and play cards, but I have no idea if they still dance. Their kids used to go to prom, etc, but I don't know--they went fundier lately and homeschool or send to a bizarre private Christian school The kids at that school had a formal party of some kind, but not sure if it was a dance..

[Arete]

The Greek Orthodox have a religious folk tradition that considers wine to be a gift God gave to humans for their pleasure and enjoyment, standing apart in a category that it only shares with music and sex. That is not snark.

[salex]

The Greek Orthodox have a religious folk tradition that considers wine to be a gift God gave to humans for their pleasure and enjoyment, standing apart in a category that it only shares with music and sex. That is not snark.

Wine, women and Song... sounds like a gift to me!

I tell my husband that oddly enough alcohol and young women seem eternally popular...

[Maggie Mae]

Do you ever have to try to figure out how to explain a weirdness you grew up in? Like, you KNOW that it's weird and kinda nutty but it's also completely 'normal' to you?

Yep, that's what this conversation always does to me.

-snip-

That's what this entire FORUM does to me.

I mean, I knew I had some things that were unusual, and a lot of my "differences" with my peers and how I was treated by their parents for my home 'situation' is why i have a real problem with some of these people we snark on, and why I really like FJ. But then I realize that what seemed 'normal' to me is not at all 'normal' and i may have been striving for a false sense of 'normalcy'

or something.