Pet Fundies

[Azelma]

The question was about being friends with fundies... you seem to be setting up a false dichotomy here between befriending someone and shutting them out of your life completely. In my world, I have a whole range of acquaintances and colleagues with whom I exchange ideas, by whom I am challenged and stretched, and to whom I would offer help if I saw a need that I could fulfil. They are not all people that I consider to be my friends though and they are not all people with whom I feel a special connection and kinship and to whom I would offer my unconditional support. There is a difference.

I think that's what I'm trying to say though. I did consider them friends. A different type than the ones who shared the important beliefs with me, but did I feel a special connection to them and want to support them? Oh yeah. Not necessarily "unconditional" support, but I've felt for them in the cases where they questioned some of the things they were raised with because I understand what that's like. I've cried over these girls in the past, and that's more than I can say for a lot of my casual-coffee-buddy-type friends. And yes, we did have fun together. This thread has brought up some sad memories, even. (And some good ones, like the three or four fundie-lite 'friends' who decided after hanging out with me that there's nothing wrong with being gay.)

I'm still not sure about the term 'friend,' but yeah, I'd be lying if I didn't say there was a connection.

[formergothardite]

Would you also friend a racists?

[Azelma]

I do also want to make clear that I'm talking about females in the 15-20 age range to my 19-at-the-time. I personally knew some male fundies who were around my age, and I did not ever consider them friends in the same way. That felt a lot ickier to me. I do think that makes a difference, especially given that patriarchy is a huge thing in this particular harmful belief system. I doubt I could ever consider a male fundie a friend, or a much older one. I guess I felt like they still had time to change at that point.

[Soldier of the One]

I am neither unaware nor ignorant of that. But just because different interest groups with different levels of moral reprehensibility *all* claim to act in the interest of X, Y or Z, doesn't mean they are all genuine in that claim. I still think that we have to be careful with comparing ideology X, Y or Z with Neo-Nazism. As much as I loathe Stalinism, for instance, I also don't think Stalinism should be compared to Nazism. They are very different ideologies, with different foundations and different aims. Not every 'dangerous' ideology is akin to a Nazi ideology.

Look - we can agree to disagree on this. It's fine by me. I just wanted to clarify my position :)

If the point of this thread was to compare them on pure merit, I would agree with you.

However, the basis of your question was whether or not we'd be friends with a fundie and I don't think both fundies and neo-Nazis or fundies and the KKK have to have the same exact ideologies, foundations, and aims to be equally dangerous and unworthy of friendship.

[Savoring Samsara]

I have no pet fundies. There are some fundie bloggers that I feel more sympathy with than others, people who I suspect are trapped in fundiedom by circumstance rather than by choice, but I don't feel that any deep connection or kinship with any one in particular.

This, exactly.

The question of maintaining relationships with fundamentalists is something I really struggle with. I have a lot of fundie family members, and while some of them have been absolutely awful toward me while using their religion as a shield and an excuse and I feel no sadness about not having a relationship with them, others have shown me genuine love and support despite our very different lifestyles. Yet even with those family members who have been kind to me, there's always a certain superficiality to our relationship because I know that they do not approve of my being a liberal, a feminist, a working mother, a pagan, etc. - just as I don't approve of certain choices they have made in life. So there will always be certain issues that are an elephant in the room that we can't discuss if we want to keep the peace and there will always be a distance between us because of that.

I would agree that there's a spectrum of relationships. A fundie and I are not ever going to be BFFs, but to a certain extent, we can be civil to each other. Then again, in the relationships I'm talking about, these are long-standing family ties where I have deliberately and willingly chosen to temporarily suppress certain of my behaviors and beliefs around these people in order to keep the peace in my family. I am not likely to want to do the same for the sake of maybe befriending a stranger.

[Soldier of the One]

If you are making "pets" of someone, you are acting like their beliefs are not that bad. Beliefs that would deny Valsa any rights. In fact, I bet all these "pet" fundies that you have would really want people like Valsa to just disappear, to go back in the closet. They don't want to acknowledge that she exists and that she is equal to them. THAT Soldier of the One is what you are making a pet of. Their beliefs are just as horrible as a racists.

I know people who are fundies, but I don't consider them friends. Of course, since I have left church and god they don't really want to be my friend either.

I think there are grey areas but I do see what you're saying. But where to start? There are many, many reprehensible things in the world of which we take part - from the slave conditions under which most of our consumer goods are produced to the weapons trade which our banks are involved in. I will never, ever back down on my egalitarian, pro-gay, feminist, progressive ideals and any 'pet fundie' willing to engage with me knows this. If I do engage in a friendly way, it's on my terms. But that doesn't mean I can't hear their perspective. I also believe there are varying beliefs of fundie-ism and not every fundie wants to make 'abomination X, Y or Z' go away. I could never engage with Zsu, for instance. because of the open extremity of her beliefs. But just as we cannot lump all people together, we cannot lump all fundies together either.

It might be in my nature to want to see 'good' in everyone (or nearly) everyone. I suppose that can be both a good and a terrible things.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think that's what I'm trying to say though. I did consider them friends. A different type than the ones who shared the important beliefs with me, but did I feel a special connection to them and want to support them? Oh yeah. Not necessarily "unconditional" support, but I've felt for them in the cases where they questioned some of the things they were raised with because I understand what that's like. I've cried over these girls in the past, and that's more than I can say for a lot of my casual-coffee-buddy-type friends. And yes, we did have fun together. This thread has brought up some sad memories, even. (And some good ones, like the three or four fundie-lite 'friends' who decided after hanging out with me that there's nothing wrong with being gay.)

I'm still not sure about the term 'friend,' but yeah, I'd be lying if I didn't say there was a connection.

I accept that you considered them friends. What I don't accept is that there are only two alternatives: befriend them or shut them out. In my world there is a spectrum of relationship possibilities and there is also a range of ways in which individuals can help others in need, which does not have to involve fandom, crying and hand-holding.

[formergothardite]

SOTO, do you not think fundies who believe being gay is an abomination and would vote agaisnt gay rights are not as bad as being racists? Or do you think they are equally bad, but you would still see the good in a racists, connect with a racist, have racist friends, have a pet racist and listen to the perspective of a racist?

[valsa]

Fair enough. I get your point. I have a different perspective which is undoubtedly colored through the lens of my experience: the 'privilege' of a non-fundie upbringing combined with having actual, real-life fundie friends. And of course, as a Jew, anything with the word 'Nazi' in it pushes all my buttons. I am generally of the school of thought that Nazism was a unique phenomenon and we should be careful making comparisons. (Hence my irk about 'abortion = Holocaust' or 'Israeli occupation = Nazism'. And mind you, I oppose that occupation too! :))

For the record, I also had a non-fundie upbringing so I'm not sure how that comes into play. I think your biggest priviledge lies in that you're probably a lot more similar to the Christian fundies than you are to me (and you can definitely forget me and the fundies being similar to each other) I had the privilege of getting into a screaming match at 14 years old with an adult male fundie, at a gay pride parade, over whether or not I was going to hell. I'm guessing that you've probably not experienced something similar. So you'll just have to excuse me for not swallowing the pretty, inoffensive facade fundies build up when I've already seen under it.

Also, no where in this thread did I ever compare anyone to Nazis. Neo-Nazis =/= Nazis.

Lastly, just as an aside, as a Jewish person who is aware probably aware of the buildup surrounding the Holocaust, shouldn't you be more sensitive to the fact that denying people their rights and treating them as less-than-human can get really nasty, really fast- no matter how positive the intentions of the people doing it?

[Azelma]

I accept that you considered them friends. What I don't accept is that there are only two alternatives: befriend them or shut them out. In my world there is a spectrum of relationship possibilities and there is also a range of ways in which individuals can help others in need, which does not have to involve fandom, crying and hand-holding.

I hope you didn't get the idea that my experience was representative of everyone's or that I only suggest two alternatives for relating to fundies or helping those in need; that was certainly not my intention! I was only sharing my experience with one aspect of relationships I've had with fundies in the past (when I myself was quite young). I'm sorry if you felt offended by my post or if you felt that I was trying to speak for your experiences.

Edited to make the quote-tree less confusing!

[Guest Anonymous]

I hope you didn't get the idea that my experience was representative of everyone's or that I only suggest two alternatives for relating to fundies or helping those in need; that was certainly not my intention! I was only sharing my experience with one aspect of relationships I've had with fundies in the past (when I myself was quite young). I'm sorry if you felt offended by my post or if you felt that I was trying to speak for your experiences.

I was not offended; I simply disagree with you. It was your use of "we", in the portion that I originally quoted, that suggested you were speaking for the population at large, rather than just for your own experience.

[Azelma]

I was not offended; I simply disagree with you. It was your use of "we", in the portion that I originally quoted, that suggested you were speaking for the population at large, rather than just for your own experience.

Definitely not my intention at all. I hope if you can read the rest of what I said with that in mind you'll see that it was actually a very personal experience that I was a little hesitant to share here in the first place. I wasn't sure if anyone would understand, especially when I'm still not sure if I do myself. I decided to post it to see if anyone had felt the same way or could make sense of something that caused my poor teenage self a lot of conflict. I tend to 'we' things to depersonalize them, perhaps because of my day job as a swimming teacher. Not here to cause trouble or make enemies, I promise!

[Guest Anonymous]

Definitely not my intention at all. I hope if you can read the rest of what I said with that in mind you'll see that it was actually a very personal experience that I was a little hesitant to share here in the first place. I wasn't sure if anyone would understand, especially when I'm still not sure if I do myself. I decided to post it to see if anyone had felt the same way or could make sense of something that caused my poor teenage self a lot of conflict. I tend to 'we' things to depersonalize them, perhaps because of my day job as a swimming teacher. Not here to cause trouble or make enemies, I promise!

Not jumping on you and no offence taken.

[LostSamurai]

I have no pet fundies. Nor will I ever have any pet fundies.

Why would I befriend someone who'd be more than happy to take away rights of people because they don't subscribe to what a fundie's ideal should be? Also I'm Catholic and a lot of these fundies haet Catholics...for some reason.

[JesusFightClub]

The term "pet fundie" implies a subservient relationship and even a certain degree of contempt/disdain, no? I don't think "do you have a pet fundie" is the same question as "can you be/are you now friends with a fundie?" to be honest.

I have neither. I do not like fundies. They don't like me. In fact, they hate me and think I should burn in a big fiery pit forever, me and all my mates and my comrades and my brothers and sisters everywhere in the world who don't believe as they do, while they look on with glee. That's...not the kind of person I am friends with.

My fascination with fundies isn't about liking them and I'm always rather confused when people on FJ say that they're sneakingly jealous of "the lifestyle" or that they find some particular fundie cute or appealing or think they're genuinely a nice person. They are not nice people. They are good at playing nice. That's not the same thing.

The fascination is because they are sneaking about in society trying to infiltrate and turn the course of countries to their will. Even the Jane Austen kick and the cute pastels and the fun outings and the pretty dresses are bait on a hook. As has been said, it's weaving flowers around the chains they want to use to bind you, in the hopes you won't notice the metal underneath.

(On a more personal level, I worry about my own fundie-like tendencies, and since making more of a study of fundies I have seen many resemblances between how they think and how I think, which concerns me. A bit of self-criticism doesn't do any harm and may do some good. This is another reason to be interested in fundies.)

[formergothardite]

The term "pet fundie" implies a subservient relationship and even a certain degree of contempt/disdain, no? I don't think "do you have a pet fundie" is the same question as "can you be/are you now friends with a fundie?" to be honest.

I have neither. I do not like fundies. They don't like me. In fact, they hate me and think I should burn in a big fiery pit forever, me and all my mates and my comrades and my brothers and sisters everywhere in the world who don't believe as they do, while they look on with glee. That's...not the kind of person I am friends with.

My fascination with fundies isn't about liking them and I'm always rather confused when people on FJ say that they're sneakingly jealous of "the lifestyle" or that they find some particular fundie cute or appealing or think they're genuinely a nice person. They are not nice people. They are good at playing nice. That's not the same thing.

The fascination is because they are sneaking about in society trying to infiltrate and turn the course of countries to their will. Even the Jane Austen kick and the cute pastels and the fun outings and the pretty dresses are bait on a hook. As has been said, it's weaving flowers around the chains they want to use to bind you, in the hopes you won't notice the metal underneath.

(On a more personal level, I worry about my own fundie-like tendencies, and since making more of a study of fundies I have seen many resemblances between how they think and how I think, which concerns me. A bit of self-criticism doesn't do any harm and may do some good. This is another reason to be interested in fundies.)

I love this and it is so true. Even the "nice" fundies are not harmless. The sweet looking ones that people have mentioned that they find it easy to connect to are actually way more dangerous than Zsu. Normal people aren't going to connect and want to friend Zsu Zsu because she doesn't sugar coat what she believes, but the rest of them believe almost the exact same thing as Zsu Zsu, they just pretty it up so it sounds less offensive.

[valsa]

I have neither. I do not like fundies. They don't like me. In fact, they hate me and think I should burn in a big fiery pit forever, me and all my mates and my comrades and my brothers and sisters everywhere in the world who don't believe as they do, while they look on with glee. That's...not the kind of person I am friends with.

My fascination with fundies isn't about liking them and I'm always rather confused when people on FJ say that they're sneakingly jealous of "the lifestyle" or that they find some particular fundie cute or appealing or think they're genuinely a nice person. They are not nice people. They are good at playing nice. That's not the same thing.

I agree with all of this.

Along similar lines, I also hate the phrase "fundie light/lite". To me, it's dangerous to imply someone with harmful beliefs isn't as much of a threat as their similarly-believing counterparts just because they, say, wear pants or have a short haircut. Guess what, folks? That person still wants to take away a woman's right to make her own medical decisions, thinks gays are evil pedophiles who will burn in hell, believes the husband always makes the final decision in the household, and assumes rape victims had it coming because they weren't under the protection of their father/eldest brother/husband.

[ADoyle90815]

I love this and it is so true. Even the "nice" fundies are not harmless. The sweet looking ones that people have mentioned that they find it easy to connect to are actually way more dangerous than Zsu. Normal people aren't going to connect and want to friend Zsu Zsu because she doesn't sugar coat what she believes, but the rest of them believe almost the exact same thing as Zsu Zsu, they just pretty it up so it sounds less offensive.

That's true,"nice" fundies aren't harmless as they want to take away women's rights when it comes to the body, and they believe gay people are pedophiles who made the choice to be gay. As I have family members who are Catholic, fundies would hate me for even associating with them, including going to a Catholic church for weddings and funerals.

[paganhomeschooler]

I agree with all of this.

Along similar lines, I also hate the phrase "fundie light/lite". To me, it's dangerous to imply someone with harmful beliefs isn't as much of a threat as their similarly-believing counterparts just because they, say, wear pants or have a short haircut. Guess what, folks? That person still wants to take away a woman's right to make her own medical decisions, thinks gays are evil pedophiles who will burn in hell, believes the husband always makes the final decision in the household, and assumes rape victims had it coming because they weren't under the protection of their father/eldest brother/husband.

I disagree. I think the lite part in fundie lite could be the fact that they DO think those things are bad! My friends who I would consider fundie lite do not think gay people are evil. They are as horrified by anyone being raped as I would be. They support the right of choice, even if they would never dream of abortion themselves. My friend with the tattoos rules her husband with an iron fist. My husband ribs him because they are fundie lite, but she wears the pants in the family. They also believe in and use birth control. They know the earth is billions of years old. They wear jeans. They are specifically planning small families, much smaller than my heathen self.

Why do I consider them fundie? They go to a mega church with 3 Jumbotrons in the sanctuary. They are expected to tithe. Their preacher sounds like Jim Baker. They go to church 2+ times a week. They have to take rotations working as ushers for the guys and in the nursery for the gals. They have attended that Jim Sammons or whatever Boob blathers on about financial security seminar. They had the Duggars speak at their church. One of their hubbies was homeschooled as were his 5 siblings. All 6 of them are horribly naive and unworldly. He did get grumpy when my friend wanted a beer, but she drank it anyway! The other couple has gone out drinking with my husband and I on more than 1 occasion. They were required to say "honor" in their wedding vows by the pastor or he wouldn't perform the ceremony. They very much believe in God being their one and only ticket to heaven. They think chiropractors can cure anything.

At the same time, they are still good people! Do I agree with them on religious matters? Hell NO! So, yes, a person can be what I would consider fundie lite and still be a good, kind person and a good friend, if not a bit misdirected in their choice of worship. I know they love and respect me for the person I am, and I love and respect them for the people they are.

[LilMissMetaphor]

) I had the privilege of getting into a screaming match at 14 years old with an adult male fundie, at a gay pride parade, over whether or not I was going to hell.

Why would you get into a screaming match over being told (even not nicely) you were going to a nonexistent place you don't believe in?

If a Muslim told me I was going to Jahannam because of who I am, or what I did in the bedroom, I'd be all, whatevs, dude.

Fourteen or not.

[desertvixen]

No pet fundies. I see them more as exhibits at the zoo. I might find the snakes in the reptile house to be beautiful and interesting, but only as long as they are on their side of the glass.

[applejack]

I have one on LJ that I've been checking up on for years and years, we've talked a few times, she actually did something nice and sent me a sample of some stuff she sold on Etsy to help my mother's granuloma annulare before I wasted money on a big jar of it, which was super nice of her, since if it didn't work I'd be stuck with the stuff.

She came across my radar back in LJs nascent days, when she posted her anti-abortion glurge to abortion_debate, got ridiculed, flounced, returned with a "you guys have one more chance to be nice to me!" post of the same basic glurge and eventually got banned. She is, I believe, more fundie lite than full-on fundie (she wears jeans, loves dystopian fiction, etc), but now that she's married (to a guy who smacks of being Tool in a younger body), she may start veering off in a more fundie direction. Time will tell, I guess.

[Soldier of the One]

For the record, I also had a non-fundie upbringing so I'm not sure how that comes into play. I think your biggest priviledge lies in that you're probably a lot more similar to the Christian fundies than you are to me (and you can definitely forget me and the fundies being similar to each other) I had the privilege of getting into a screaming match at 14 years old with an adult male fundie, at a gay pride parade, over whether or not I was going to hell. I'm guessing that you've probably not experienced something similar. So you'll just have to excuse me for not swallowing the pretty, inoffensive facade fundies build up when I've already seen under it.

Also, no where in this thread did I ever compare anyone to Nazis. Neo-Nazis =/= Nazis.

Lastly, just as an aside, as a Jewish person who is aware probably aware of the buildup surrounding the Holocaust, shouldn't you be more sensitive to the fact that denying people their rights and treating them as less-than-human can get really nasty, really fast- no matter how positive the intentions of the people doing it?

Valsa, I am really sorry for your experiences and I would never want to imply that I was negating those. I think it's hard to judge strangers on the internet - in any circumstances. I don't know much about your personal circumstances just as you don't know much about mine. I think making assumptions in any case is risky business. Yes, I am heteronormatively married. But yes, I have also been shouted at by fundies that hellfire awaits me for a variety of reasons. I purposely choose not to share too much personal stuff on FJ (it's the internet and I consider my time here mostly of intellectual/ideological value, not of personal value) but all I can say is that I am less similar to Christian fundies than you suspect I am. (Feel free to pm me if you want a more open discussion about this, if you can promise me confidence :))

All I am saying is that I think *some* fundies are more nuanced, compassionate and reasoned than others. And all I am saying is that yes, I have been in the situation of being in pleasant/civil contact and/or varying degrees of friendship with a variety of fundies: Christian, Jewish and Muslim. Negotiating those boundaries is both challenging and interesting to me and that's what I came here to discuss.

I don't believe in demonizing or dehumanizing people under any set of circumstances, even if I might find most of their beliefs reprehensible. That includes our fundies. I also make a sharp distinction between fierce political and social criticism that I level at the leaders of fundie institutions (whether it's the Israeli Rabbanut or Vision Forum!) and how I engage with certain individual bloggers who to me seem more kind and reasonable and who aren't actively spreading hateful ideology on their blogs.

Valsa, I can't convince you of my intentions towards you. I can't convince you of gay rights activism I've done in the past, about the gay inclusive atmosphere I try to construct in my own life, work and community, about my openness to discuss and defend these issues with my fundie friends without conceding an inch to their position. Gay rights are a political and a religious issue to me. But if I'd not be able to build rapport with everyone who I disagree with, the world would be a lonely place for me. As a progressive, religious Jewish woman, I often fall betwen the cracks: the Atheists, the fundie Christians, the Muslims, the Orthodox Jews, right wingers - all these people potentially have a bone to pick with my worldview and even my persona. I believe in deconstructing stereotypes and humanizing one another slowly. By virtue of the many discussions I hold, I know I have dismantled homophobia, sexism and antisemitism in varying degrees with real-life fundie encounters.

No, in the grand scheme of things, that's not good enough. But it's a small victory. To each his own: some people are naturally more uncompromising than others. Some people, by virtue of both their ideology and life experience, chose a more radical approach than others and that's legitimate. All I am trying to do is work through my approach. Fair and level criticism thereof is welcome. Just don't assume to know my life experiences :)

Take care.

[Soldier of the One]

The term "pet fundie" implies a subservient relationship and even a certain degree of contempt/disdain, no? I don't think "do you have a pet fundie" is the same question as "can you be/are you now friends with a fundie?" to be honest.

I have neither. I do not like fundies. They don't like me. In fact, they hate me and think I should burn in a big fiery pit forever, me and all my mates and my comrades and my brothers and sisters everywhere in the world who don't believe as they do, while they look on with glee. That's...not the kind of person I am friends with.

My fascination with fundies isn't about liking them and I'm always rather confused when people on FJ say that they're sneakingly jealous of "the lifestyle" or that they find some particular fundie cute or appealing or think they're genuinely a nice person. They are not nice people. They are good at playing nice. That's not the same thing.

The fascination is because they are sneaking about in society trying to infiltrate and turn the course of countries to their will. Even the Jane Austen kick and the cute pastels and the fun outings and the pretty dresses are bait on a hook. As has been said, it's weaving flowers around the chains they want to use to bind you, in the hopes you won't notice the metal underneath.

(On a more personal level, I worry about my own fundie-like tendencies, and since making more of a study of fundies I have seen many resemblances between how they think and how I think, which concerns me. A bit of self-criticism doesn't do any harm and may do some good. This is another reason to be interested in fundies.)

Point taken :)

I used the term 'pet fundie' because it's common parlance here at FJ. I should have defined the term in a better way, I agree. It does imply subservience and disdain, which is not what I meant. Thank you.

I think part of my fascination is a mirror-image too. For me, there *are* certain aspects of 'the lifestyle' that seem charming to me, even when I know they are chains wrapped in flowers. Heck, I could even dream away at a cheesy RomCom or a wedding show for the same reason - the fairy-tale factor. And yes, I too examine my own motivations, attractions and opinions. I don't consider myself fundie in the least but I do understand what it is like to live staunchly according to your ideals and to stand up for them and part of me can relate to that and even admire that. And part of it is social criticism. I do not like our society one bit and see some of the similar problems that fundies see, albeit through an entirely different lens and analysis. (I am also not obsessed with bedroom morality!) So I can understand their pushing against 'the culture' (not that 'the culture' is monolithic!)

Of course I vehemently disagree with them. Of course I think they're deluded and potentially harmful in some cases. Of course I cannot understand how they can completely misconstrue feminism (again, not a monolith), socialism (not a monolith either), science or sexual rights. But I am also a person of faith who struggles with her own holy scriptures, including the messy, uncomfortable bits that they seize upon. It's fascinating to see them pursue an exegetical agenda that runs so counter to mine based on the same source texts.

This is also where I'd like to answer formergothardite's question: could I be friends with a racist? No, I can't and this is a real issue for me. There are people I know in the Jewish community that hold some very, very 'firm' views on Israel-Palestine. They can be the sweetest people within my community and great friends. But I vehemently disagree with their politics on that issue and find it hugely morally problematic. I cannot understand how their otherwise humane and compassionate selves can become so blind to the suffering (and right to self-determination) of another people on the other line of the conflict. Am I friends with them? Yes. Do I feel compromised over that? Sometimes.

It also depends how you describe and define 'racist'. It's a loaded term and bandied about an awful lot (and often rightly so). Are there people with discriminatory views in my life? Yes. Some of them are extended family. Some of them are friends. They know my position and I know theirs. I myself have been in situations where I've been 'condemned to hell' or called a 'self-hating Jew', among other things. But is racist analogous to homophobe? This is a deeper question that probes into definitions of homophobia. I know completely kind and humane people of religious orthodoxy (any religious orthodoxy) who would treat gay people in their social encounters with respect but who say, 'according to my interpretation of scripture, I cannot condone homosexual acts'. Now, I think they are wrong: both morally and exegetically. And I think their opinions can be harmful at a larger scale but that doesn't make them evil or unworthy of my friendship. In fact, it invites me to talk to them about those very issues. I think that is markedly different from a hateful racist who spews pseudo-scientific nonsense and who is not open to having that conversation and who is actively harming people on account of his beliefs.

I know many of you will disagree with my position, but so be it. This is the colorful, variegated and messy reality in which I live and I am trying to negotiate those boundaries as best as I can. I am not here to pick fights, make presumptions, gloss over people's personal experiences and narratives or to sugarcoat oppression and if I have given that impression, I apologize. For me, it's all a learning curve and FJ is part of that. That's all I can say really.

[Guest Anonymous]

SotO, something that interests me about your perspective is that you seem to be talking mostly in the past tense about having had friendships with fundies. Have you maintained those friendships into the present? Would you say you are as close to them as you are to your non-fundie friends? Are they people you would turn to in a crisis and/or call up to share your current personal life issues and/or feel that you just have to share something with them that you saw on the news today? What kind of friendship is it?

The reason I ask is that, as I have said, I still have contact with old friends from back when I was an evangelical Christian. We were friends for so long and went through so much together that, on the occasions that a wedding, a new baby, a reunion, etc, brings us together we can dine out all night on reminiscences from the past. If we meet again following a night out, we can get through a good portion of a 'second date', so to speak, catching up on what is going on in our lives and with the people that we know. We can feel a certain fondness for each other and a genuine wish for the best for each other. However, when it gets beyond occasional coffee dates, for me, the chasm between us starts to open and the conversation starts to run dry. When we are watching the news together and have diametrically opposed views on just about everything that is going on in the world; when my friend stops a conversation because her daughter 'needs a smack' for some offence committed; when we are watching a chat show and she pulls 'that face' at an actor or comedian who happens to be gay, when I share a confidence about an awful life event that I am going through and she gently

brings Jesus and his saving grace into the conversation...... those things remind me that although we can maintain a friendly relationship, and although I may always have a fondness for her, we really are no longer friends at any deep level. One "truth" that I seem to have brought with me out of evangelicalism is that a believer really cannot be happily yoked with an unbeliever. At a fundamental level our beliefs about the world and about the other humans with which we share the world are fundamentally different and it won't be very long at all before we start to pull in different directions.