Pet Fundies

[Soldier of the One]

Does anyone here have a 'pet fundie', as in:

1) a blog (or blogs) that they actually enjoy reading and feel connected to?

2) a real life contact/friendship with a fundie they appreciate?

In other words, can you be friends (or admiring of certain aspects of) with a fundie? Personally, I like being friends with folks from all walks of life (it really doesn't go over well at birthday parties!) and yes, I have some fundie friends too. There are also fundie blogs I genuinely enjoy reading even if I find some or most of the theology reprehensible. And yes, I do have a bit of cognitive dissonance over this :lol:

Care to share?

[nolongerIFBx]

Does anyone here have a 'pet fundie', as in:

1) a blog (or blogs) that they actually enjoy reading and feel connected to?

2) a real life contact/friendship with a fundie they appreciate?

In other words, can you be friends (or admiring of certain aspects of) with a fundie? Personally, I like being friends with folks from all walks of life (it really doesn't go over well at birthday parties!) and yes, I have some fundie friends too. There are also fundie blogs I genuinely enjoy reading even if I find some or most of the theology reprehensible. And yes, I do have a bit of cognitive dissonance over this :lol:

Care to share?

Yes- but then there are some here who would still label me a fundie, so that's not surprising. I love Resolved2Worship and Recovering Grace and Rebecca (because despite the fact that she did not behave in accordance with FJ rules here, she is real. She admits she has problems and everything is not all wonderful all the time as some of the fundie bloggers seem to want us to believe, "I've been married 36 months and have 4 wonderful chidren and my husband cares so much about me he actually picked up a piece of trash in teh house!!!11!!1!" She admits that she hasn't always agreed with IFBx rules even if she followed them to get along.) I do feel connected to these bloggers because it is where I'm coming from and where I hope I'm headed.

[Melissa19128]

I loved reading Tracy (5redhens.blogspot.com). Tracy is the mother to Autumn (autiemautie.blogspot.com) who was married at 16 and it ended up being an abusive marriage. I respected the fact that the parents admitted it was a mistake to let their daughter get married and supported her in leaving the marriage. Since that situation Tracy doesn't post much and she never gets too personal. It seems like they have moved away from fundie to fundie light (if that). The woman now wear pants and Autumn moved away on her own and is in (gasp) college. Even when they were crazy fundie I still had a soft spot for them because they were a genuinely loving family.

[valsa]

In other words, can you be friends (or admiring of certain aspects of) with a fundie? Personally, I like being friends with folks from all walks of life (it really doesn't go over well at birthday parties!)

There's a difference between beings friends with people from all walks of life and being friends with people who have dangerous and destructive ideology. I wouldn't be friends with a fundie any more than I'd be friends with a neo-Nazi or member of the KKK.

[yewchapel]

No. No fundies are pet fundies to me. I have friends from all walks of life too, but I could not be friends with an actual fundie. To me the definition of fundie is someone who believes their belief/way of life to be The Only Correct Path Ever and is not shy about enforcing that onto others, and I couldn't be friends with someone like that.

[Lady Elaine]

Oh yes. There are some I've grown to care about in a way. They are usually more on the normal side and seem like genuinely sweet people. Emily Brower is one of them. Another is a girl named Kristen who writes a fashion blog. Also Emily from practically pink and a young girl named Abby from a blog called follow god everyday. There are others and there are some I used to like that I dont like so well anymore. Fresh Modesty Olivia is one of those. I don't think all fundies are the same and not all are so crazy. I don't like it when people say "don't keep pet fundies!" because I do think it is possible to get along with people you don't always agree with. To a point. I could never be pals with someone like zsu, for example.

[Soldier of the One]

There's a difference between beings friends with people from all walks of life and being friends with people who have dangerous and destructive ideology. I wouldn't be friends with a fundie any more than I'd be friends with a neo-Nazi or member of the KKK.

Valsa, I understand that critique, hence I referred to the cognitive dissonance. But as morally problematic (and potentially dangerous) as I find most fundie ideologies to be, I still wouldn't compare them to the KKK or Neo-Nazism.

And yes, IRL I've been friends with people with radically opposing views from mine. They were just not hateful or self-righteous about it.

[Soldier of the One]

Oh yes. There are some I've grown to care about in a way. They are usually more on the normal side and seem like genuinely sweet people. Emily Brower is one of them. Another is a girl named Kristen who writes a fashion blog. Also Emily from practically pink and a young girl named Abby from a blog called follow god everyday. There are others and there are some I used to like that I dont like so well anymore. Fresh Modesty Olivia is one of those. I don't think all fundies are the same and not all are so crazy. I don't like it when people say "don't keep pet fundies!" because I do think it is possible to get along with people you don't always agree with. To a point. I could never be pals with someone like zsu, for example.

Agreed. I don't think all fundies are the same. Some are deranged and obsessive (as are many non-fundie people about any particular thing!). And some are just really in love with their lifestyle and believe in their truth. But are also kind-hearted and sensible. Besides, I have Ultra-Orthodox Jewish friends - who clearly disapprove of my religious choices - can I not be friends with them?

I think there's a clear difference in quality/level of fanaticism/compassion among fundie bloggers. Emily Brower I like too - she's not in your face about her fundamentalist beliefs and she seems like a sweet, wholesome gal with a loving husband. In fact, her whole circle of 'Photography' friends I like: Lauren Hope (acornerpillar) and the Brookeshires (simplyvintagegirl). The latter two can be a bit more moralizing in their posts but they keep it civil and respectful. And isn't that what the internet is for? For sharing your opinion, even if others may think it ludicrous? Yes, I am concerned that they are so closely tied to Vision Forum, but I do think that I could actually sit down with those young women for a decent conversation.

I'm a sucker for lifestyle and photography blogs and the fundie narrative makes it even more engaging, adding a sort of anthropological veneer to the whole blog-reading matter. Do I sugar coat them? I don't think so. I know exactly what their beliefs are. But I am also friends with Jews who support the occupation of the West Bank, which I find morally reprehensible also. And still they are completely decent and kind people. I suspect that for many a fundie it's the same.

The real intense ones like ZsuZsu and Generation Cedar I don't even read. I can't relate to their level of self-righteousness and I don't find their blogs engaging. To me they are just another corner of crazy on the internet.

[valsa]

Valsa, I understand that critique, hence I referred to the cognitive dissonance. But as morally problematic (and potentially dangerous) as I find most fundie ideologies to be, I still wouldn't compare them to the KKK or Neo-Nazism.

Why not?

Fundies oppress, restrict the rights of, and often support violence against certain people (women, gay people, non-Christians) the same way the KKK and neo-Nazis do.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have no pet fundies. There are some fundie bloggers that I feel more sympathy with than others, people who I suspect are trapped in fundiedom by circumstance rather than by choice, but I don't feel that any deep connection or kinship with any one in particular.

While I am happy to meet and be friendly and treat with respect almost anyone I run into, I tend not to develop strong affection for people with viewpoints that I find deeply offensive on the 'big' issues in life. In real life, I still have a number of friends/acquaintances from my evangelical Christian days but I generally find it hard to maintain a deep connection with a person who is pre-occupied with my 'need' for a relationship with Jesus. And since I cannot tolerate bigotry against women, gay people and non-Christians, I usually introduce uncomfortable counter-arguments into the conversations that pretty much make it hard for them to maintain a deep connection with me....

[formergothardite]

Why not?

Fundies oppress, restrict the rights of, and often support violence against certain people (women, gay people, non-Christians) the same way the KKK and neo-Nazis do.

Exactly. How is having a pet gay hater any different than having a pet racist? Even Rebecca despite all of her floofy talk didn't approve of gay people.

~Punctuation. I should use it.

[FeministShrew]

My sister is a fundie, & while I still love her, we can't really be friends. She assumes everyone else believes the way she does, she blindly submits (& gives her whole paycheck) to her unemployed-by-choice husband, and she's trying to brainwash her young grandchildren too.

We don't talk anymore since I started vocally supporting reproductive choice, same sex marriage & socialized medicine.

Some of my old friends from fundie-lite church are now FB friends, but I think they just like to spy on me. :D

[Soldier of the One]

Valsa: well, this is just my opinion, of course, but I do think there's something ontologically different between a fascist/racist ideology that supports genocide and ethnic cleansing and a patriarchal ideology that (severely) wants to restrict women's rights. Yes, both are discriminatory but come from radically different worldviews. (Unless there's overlap: some forms of fundamentalism are actually Christian fascism). I don't think that every fundie is potentially racist. And I am also inclined to think that a good number genuinely believe that their ideas on women actually honor women. I think it's deluded, sure. But I also think homphobia, young earth Creationism and Republican politics are equally deluded.

I think there's a difference between being deluded and dangerous (and yes, this should be exposed - that's why I am part of the FJ community) and outright evil (like Neo-Nazism). I understand you might feel differently but this is how I see it :)

AnnieC: I totally get that. I have had a brief correspondence with a fundie blogger in the past and have laid down my pro-gay, feminist, pro-science-but-religious opinions very clearly. She took them respectfully and in good stride. Obviously, I didn't expect to convert her but I just wanted to put a 'face' on religious liberalism for her and a 'face' on feminism defined in positive terms. I genuinely think many fundies really, really misunderstand feminism hence hating it so much.

[Guest Anonymous]

... I am also inclined to think that a good number genuinely believe that their ideas on women actually honor women. I think it's deluded, sure. But I also think homphobia, young earth Creationism and Republican politics are equally deluded.

I think there's a difference between being deluded and dangerous (and yes, this should be exposed - that's why I am part of the FJ community) and outright evil (like Neo-Nazism). I understand you might feel differently but this is how I see it :)

.

Have you been on the receiving end of fundie teaching, SotO?

I absolutely believe that 99% of the people in my former evangelical church genuinely believed that their ideas on women actually honour women. They were 'nice' people. But they were most certainly deluded AND dangerous - those who preached it from the pulpit, those who taught it to the youth group, and those who just sat sweetly on the sidelines, passively allowing it to continue for all of my teenage/young adult years. I am over 40 now and still struggle with much of the shit I was taught and the damage it caused by its influence on all the critical decisions I made about my education, my relationships and my friends during those formative years.

[valsa]

Valsa: well, this is just my opinion, of course, but I do think there's something ontologically different between a fascist/racist ideology that supports genocide and ethnic cleansing and a patriarchal ideology that (severely) wants to restrict women's rights. Yes, both are discriminatory but come from radically different worldviews. (Unless there's overlap: some forms of fundamentalism are actually Christian fascism). I don't think that every fundie is potentially racist. And I am also inclined to think that a good number genuinely believe that their ideas on women actually honor women. I think it's deluded, sure. But I also think homphobia, young earth Creationism and Republican politics are equally deluded.

I think there's a difference between being deluded and dangerous (and yes, this should be exposed - that's why I am part of the FJ community) and outright evil (like Neo-Nazism). I understand you might feel differently but this is how I see it :)

Are you unaware of, or just conveniently ignoring, the fact that many people who espouse things like "White Power" genuinely believe they're working to protect white people who are in danger from minorities and minority-positive social policy? There's a reason the KKK has tried to re-package itself away from "We hate black people" to "We're just promoting the best interests of white people"

[Soldier of the One]

Have you been on the receiving end of fundie teaching, SotO?

I absolutely believe that 99% of the people in my former evangelical church genuinely believed that their ideas on women actually honour women. They were 'nice' people. But they were most certainly deluded AND dangerous - those who preached it from the pulpit, those who taught it to the youth group, and those who just sat sweetly on the sidelines, passively allowing it to continue for all of my teenage/young adult years. I am over 40 now and still struggle with much of the shit I was taught and the damage it caused by its influence on all the critical decisions I made about my education, my relationships and my friends during those formative years.

I haven't AnnieC, and my musings on pet fundies never intended to delegitimize the experiences of people under fundamentalism. I am sorry if my post seemed to make light of that or not consider that because that certainly wasn't my intention.

I struggle with these meta-questions in my own religious community. I have some very real disagreements with (Ultra-) Orthodox Judaism and find their position on women (and many cases on Gentiles) problematic in the least, if not, reprehensible. But I don't necessarily find them reprehensible as individuals. Nor do I believe that they are trying to be objectively reprehensible: they believe their interpretation of Judaism does justice to women. Maybe that has softened me a bit regarding Christian fundamentalism. I am not sure if the two are comparable. There's some pretty problematic stuff going on in the fundamentalist Jewish culture also.

[Soldier of the One]

Are you unaware of, or just conveniently ignoring, the fact that many people who espouse things like "White Power" genuinely believe they're working to protect white people who are in danger from minorities and minority-positive social policy? There's a reason the KKK has tried to re-package itself away from "We hate black people" to "We're just promoting the best interests of white people"

I am neither unaware nor ignorant of that. But just because different interest groups with different levels of moral reprehensibility *all* claim to act in the interest of X, Y or Z, doesn't mean they are all genuine in that claim. I still think that we have to be careful with comparing ideology X, Y or Z with Neo-Nazism. As much as I loathe Stalinism, for instance, I also don't think Stalinism should be compared to Nazism. They are very different ideologies, with different foundations and different aims. Not every 'dangerous' ideology is akin to a Nazi ideology.

Look - we can agree to disagree on this. It's fine by me. I just wanted to clarify my position :)

[valsa]

I am neither unaware nor ignorant of that. But just because different interest groups with different levels of moral reprehensibility *all* claim to act in the interest of X, Y or Z, doesn't mean they are all genuine in that claim. I still think that we have to be careful with comparing ideology X, Y or Z with Neo-Nazism. As much as I loathe Stalinism, for instance, I also don't think Stalinism should be compared to Nazism. They are very different ideologies, with different foundations and different aims. Not every 'dangerous' ideology is akin to a Nazi ideology.

Look - we can agree to disagree on this. It's fine by me. I just wanted to clarify my position :)

If the point of this thread was to compare them on pure merit, I would agree with you.

However, the basis of your question was whether or not we'd be friends with a fundie and I don't think both fundies and neo-Nazis or fundies and the KKK have to have the same exact ideologies, foundations, and aims to be equally dangerous and unworthy of friendship.

[paganhomeschooler]

My BFF from high school is now fundie lite. I still love her dearly, and she accepts me in all my heathen glory. Our kids adore each other. Our husbands are night and day but get along. (her hubby is the reason she's fundie lite now....he was raised that way, she was NOT. I know her parents are concerned about that, too.) Anyway, it has worked for us. I've got another good friend from high school. We were actually like the 3 musketeers. lol She has always been fundie lite, though. If anything, she has gotten a touch more mainstream as she's aged and come out from under her parents' watch. She was always on the rebellious side, though. They both go to the same church, so they are both definitely fundie lite. One of them is just covered in tattoos! lol

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't have any pet fundies. I often say I 'love' something that a fundie has said or done, what I mean is that I am amused (and bemused!) by their lack of logic and their ridiculous arguments. In real life, I've met a couple of people I would consider fundie. I think it's a mistake to be taken in by them. I would be disgusted with myself if I could enjoy a coffee and a chat with someone who is nice to me but (at the same time) is oppressing someone else. It would be utterly shameful. I don't ever want to fall into the thought process of: 'Oh, well! As long as X is nice to me, what else matters?'

Edit: wording

[formergothardite]

If you are making "pets" of someone, you are acting like their beliefs are not that bad. Beliefs that would deny Valsa any rights. In fact, I bet all these "pet" fundies that you have would really want people like Valsa to just disappear, to go back in the closet. They don't want to acknowledge that she exists and that she is equal to them. THAT Soldier of the One is what you are making a pet of. Their beliefs are just as horrible as a racists.

I know people who are fundies, but I don't consider them friends. Of course, since I have left church and god they don't really want to be my friend either.

[Guest Anonymous]

It would be utterly shameful. I don't ever want to fall into the thought process of: 'Oh, well! As long as X is nice to me, what else matters?'

I agree. Also, I have a strong aversion to people who I have ever heard say this.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I would love to have a proper chat with a fundie, but I dont think I could be friends with them because theres so many things about my life that they wouldnt like, and I just couldnt nod and say "Yes, thats right" if a friend says something misinformed or bigoted, and they seem like the kind of person who would never speak to you again if you told them creationism was wrong.

Sure, some fundies appear nicer and happier than others, because they arent constantly ranting about how gay people are evil and Obama is the antichrist, and dont talk about child beating or anything but instead focus on the nice bits of family life, but they still have those beliefs and probably say that sort of thing in private. Its like the Duggars, on TV they show as this lovely, happy family with cute kids, who make being fundie sound so awesome, but look too closely, and you will see the dark secrets.

I dont have any pet fundies, although there are several fundie kids (or unmarried adults who are pretty much kids), who I would love to adopt or help free.

[Azelma]

I have to say.... kind of.

My real "gateway fundies" were actually some guys I met personally who street-preached at my college back when I was a sophomore there. A group of roommates and I debated with/harassed them on their message board for a year until they returned to our school the following year, and this time we were ready. A great day of snark was had, but we actually ended up going to dinner with them and having a genuinely good time arguing. Of course, nobody convinced anybody, and at the end of the day their beliefs are reprehensible to me, but I think part of being attracted to FJ in a lot of cases involves a fascination with fundies that can get complicated. Maybe it's because I come from the culture and I was able to break away from it, but I do understand how insidious it can be. This is especially true in some of my friendships with slightly-younger fundie and fundie-lite women. There are a few (not famous, just personal acquaintances) of these women who I've known for years since we were teenagers through other online boards or even IRL, and yes, I do feel an element of personal connection with them. When I was younger I even felt responsibility to help them and, as another poster pointed out above, to put a "face" to the opposition that didn't look like the picture they had in their heads. And while I can definitely say that this doesn't always change anything, I do know for a fact that at least some of them did change, in part because of their friendships with me. I do think it was valuable to me to connect with them, and as a feminist I do consider it important to try and be a positive example to young women who might look up to me (I was somewhat-respected-ish in a mutual fandom at the time, in a lot of these cases). In one memorable case I was one of the only outside influences a girl in an extremely controlling homeschooled household had, and she changed considerably in the years we knew each other. I did, too. It made me think more deeply about my beliefs and sobered me to see the effect I could have on someone with such a small world. Upsetting as it was sometimes, I think ultimately it helped me a lot as an egotistical nineteen-year-old who thought she had it all figured out, too.

Of course their beliefs are very wrong and very harmful, but I think if we shut them out completely we ignore a real opportunity to help someone who may need it and also to challenge ourselves. I learned a lot being friends with these women over the years, and I used to say to people who didn't understand it that if even one of them re-examined some of the discriminatory and patriarchal beliefs they were raised with, it wasn't for nothing. I don't know if that's what you mean by "pet" fundies, but I would say I've had my share. I don't think it was all a one-sided convince-them-they're-wrong thing, either. I've experienced some real emotional difficulties related to some of my pet fundies, and I'll be the first to say that it's a complicated situation. In a lot of these cases, I do want the best for them and I do genuinely worry for them and hope they're okay when I think of them.

I completely understand if others choose not to associate with fundies of any stripe, but from my perspective sometimes there's some value in it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Of course their beliefs are very wrong and very harmful, but I think if we shut them out completely we ignore a real opportunity to help someone who may need it and also to challenge ourselves.

The question was about being friends with fundies... you seem to be setting up a false dichotomy here between befriending someone and shutting them out of your life completely. In my world, I have a whole range of acquaintances and colleagues with whom I exchange ideas, by whom I am challenged and stretched, and to whom I would offer help if I saw a need that I could fulfil. They are not all people that I consider to be my friends though and they are not all people with whom I feel a special connection and kinship and to whom I would offer my unconditional support. There is a difference.