New Documentary(?): Unmarried, the Rise of Singleness

[lilith]

I think you have a very good point here. It reminds me of old fashioned class restrictions. Fundie men are allowed to marry "down" (inaccurate term, but it gets the point across) and either bring the wife "up" to their level of holiness or join them at their level of faith, while it is smelling-salt worthy for a fundie girl to marry "down". Once you get to a higher level of restrictions (Maxwell, et al), there really is no one left that is equally or more conservative, and your daughter is left marrying "down" (oh the shame) or staying single.

Of course, it is harder to track the fundie guys, as they tend not to blog. However, it does seem like the brothers of fundie bloggers are getting married at a better rate than the bloggers and their sisters (Maxwells come to mind.) It also seems like many of the married fundie women who blog (or who have reality tv shows) were some flavor of mainstream Christian before they went all extreme for the LORD. Teri was normal(ish), Michelle was normal (and even has "baggage"), Abigail was normal (or at least pursued normal things, like education), Kelly Bates was normal...I could go on.

I know I've mentioned this many times, but I'll add it again: when I was attending fundie light churches them men were extremely, painfully shallow. They have been told over and over again, "God will only give you the best, you deserve perfection" and like narratives. I read that horrible I Kissed Dating Goodbye book, which specifically says that God would not give you someone you were not attracted to (read: worldly pretty, but conservatively dressed) and intimated that it would just all work out, sexually, because of this attraction. So, this issue adds to the fundie non-marriages. If men do not like the way a woman looks, dresses, has her hair, etc., she is just passed over. God would not have him get to know and fall in love with a woman who was not instantly identified as perfect. I wish this was sarcasm, but how many courtship stories start with, "I saw her, felt like she was the one, prayed, jacked off, and asked her dad..."

I have likened it to the middle and upper class concept if marrying

[lilith]

I have likened it to the 19th century middle and upper class concept if marrying"up" or "down" too, especially for the Vision Forum folks who like to see themselves as the cultural heirs of the 19th century upper middle class.

What you say about young people being taught that God would hand them the perfect partner is so sad and limiting. My partner, who I adore and would consider the great love of my life, is not physically what I usually find attractive. If I had written him off as a person because of that and not attempted to get to know him, I would never have found out just how compatible we are and how happy we can make each other.

[Sobeknofret]

What you say about young people being taught that God would hand them the perfect partner is so sad and limiting.

I think that this is what's really happening. These girls and boys are being taught that God will lead them to the perfect partner and that they can live happily ever after, when they ride off into the sunset after the wedding. I have to wonder how many of these people are really happily married after dealing with the minutiae of married life, and how many are doomed to stay waiting for that "perfect" partner.

[Closed Womb]

(snip)

What you say about young people being taught that God would hand them the perfect partner is so sad and limiting. My partner, who I adore and would consider the great love of my life, is not physically what I usually find attractive. If I had written him off as a person because of that and not attempted to get to know him, I would never have found out just how compatible we are and how happy we can make each other.

You are so right about this; it's almost heartbreakingly sad. Although I was attracted to my husband right away, if I had imagined "perfection" and subsequently prayed for, and limited myself, to that type of man, Mr. Womb certainly would not have been it. And yet we are incredibly compatible. Not to get too dramatic, but I honestly did not even realize this level of compatibility with another person was possible until I met Mr. Womb.

That said, the "God will send you the perfect someone you are perfectly attracted to, yay for Godly Perfection" idea tended to be for men only (at least as far as I could ascertain). Men, after all, were to LOVE their wives (as Christ loved the Church, taught as willing to die for her, with a side of willing to control and correct her) while the women were supposed to respect, revere, honor their husbands. (Ephesians 5:33, "However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband", taken to the extreme.) Of course, the true-for-some-women, totally-erroneous-for-other-women idea that ladies did not enjoy sex as much as gentlemen, did not need visual stimulation, etc. reinforced this idea; it was not taught outright, but the basic message is that a man HAS to have an attractive wife in order to love her, while the woman only needs a decent, Godly man in order to respect him.

Mind you, this was coming from maybe 3 or 4 fundie lite churches in central and south Florida, circa early 1990s to early 2000s. Hopefully my experiences are not typical.

[J'ean Skirt]

There seems to be a belief among some American's that marriage triggers "adulthood." It's not that you have to learn to be an adult, it's that you need to check the boxes for "have trappings of an adult." Marriage, a home, kids, all those types of things are what make you into an adult.

This is very common in some areas of the US. The result is people get married early as a marker of being "an adult." But those same areas have high divorce rates. But it does seem that people who delay the markers of adulthood have more successful, long term outcomes (on average).

At least that's what I read somewhere online. I can possibly find it.

I think, though, that's what is happening with the fundies. They don't quite believe in nurture. They think everything is nature. Babies are evil and trying to manipulate you and you have to beat the evil out of kids. But they also believe that it is nature to be an adult when you get married. Even though you have no idea what being married is like, nor have any real experience in intimate relationships. On one level I agree with them, dating *is* practice for marriage, but that's not actually a bad thing. People getting to know how to act in relationships when they can leave the relationships without legal entanglement lets them learn without long term consequences.

But fundies aren't about learning. They're not about growing. They're just about conforming.

[mrs]

There seems to be a belief among some American's that marriage triggers "adulthood." It's not that you have to learn to be an adult, it's that you need to check the boxes for "have trappings of an adult." Marriage, a home, kids, all those types of things are what make you into an adult.

I took a class in college called Teenagers and the Church. It was interesting. I do not remember everything I learned, but I do remember how important the peers of teens are in the development to adulthood. Teens often bounce their ideas off each other, and mirror their peers. Perhaps because the parents in these fundie circles keep their children isolated(think Arnt sons)they never have the developmental experience of being teenagers. Thus never becoming adults.

It is interesting that IIRC, fundy parents refuse to use the term teenager, or teen.

[Peas n carrots]

There seems to be a belief among some American's that marriage triggers "adulthood." It's not that you have to learn to be an adult, it's that you need to check the boxes for "have trappings of an adult." Marriage, a home, kids, all those types of things are what make you into an adult.[ /quote]

In my personal experience, I don't think the answer is quite so simple. Sometimes it's an economic reality that it's better to pool two incomes, but I think that is going out the window as the taboos around cohabitation die off.

But I found with a lot of my high school classmates (many of whom seemed to marry within 4 years of high school graduation) that it is just really like you said, ticking off the next box in the game of life. Nebraska is a cheap place to live compared to other parts of the country so you could afford to buy a house and get set up in life at an earlier age than in more expensive parts of the country. Also, with the job market being geared more towards agriculture, there is less demand for a 4 year liberal arts degree. So most people finish school around age 20/21, have less student loan debt and are able to buy a home.

QFT

[MamaJunebug]

Great discussion!

I'll offer this: It's not the rise of singleness, but the sparseness of the youngest generation, that's makin' them sweat.

I propose that the docu is prompted by the alarmingly small numbers in the current baby population. Let's take the Serven Clan as an example. Mom and Dad Serven are my age, late 50s to very early 60s, they're baby boomers. They have 9 children whose ages range from around 32 (Rebecca) to 11 (the younger of the last two boys). By dominionist math, Rebecca's generation - call it Gen X? - should have produced about one-third of the 81 total grandchildren Marcus and Cheryl were counting on to "promote God's kingdom."

But at this point, because they cloistered Rebecca and Elizabeth and in part due to Nathan's first engagement ending in failure, there are only 4 grandchildren. Ben in his later 20s still isn't married, though Peter has produced a Gen-Y'er, as has Rebecca, and Elizabeth's count is up to 2. Nathan hasn't been married to his lovely NR Natalie long enough.

This, folks, is cause for panic for a dominionist statistician who's plotting his plots to get a huge voter database for the Constitution Tea Party (whatever) in 2030!!!

And thus the documentary.

(Not picking on the Servens, my gateway family, just using them as example. I know the Smith-Mortons are the other side of the coin, birthin' them babies every nine months and six weeks, but in some pockets there's real room for concern.)

[mrs]

I found an article that defines "youth" versus "teenager." I'm sure it has been discussed here before but I thought since we are discussing perpetual youth we could use a refresher on how some in the fundy community define the term. And how "youths" are different then ungodly "teenagers."

Dr. Platt defines the terms "youth" and "teen" in the article "The Myth of the Teenager."

What a Youth Wants and a Teenager Does Not

A youth wants to be trusted, given responsibility, and the opportunity to deserve esteem. Youths make more mistakes than adults. Usually their mistakes lead to lighter consequences, but they suffer more from them than adults; they like their mistakes less; they feel more shame. Shame is the other side of the respect they have for the virtues they see in adults.

Being immature, youths will always be tempted by pleasures, by flattery, and by illusions, but with an adult world around them, they will be able to make comparisons and judgments. Candy is candy, candy is sweet, candy can be given to you, but nothing in the world can substitute for knowing how to ride your bike. No one can give that to you. No one can do that for you.

Youths tend, then, to know the difference between the things that are really your own -- the virtues -- and the things that come from others, such as wealth, or come easy, such as the pleasures. Good youths like good tests. They want to enjoy adult pleasures after they have earned them by performing adult duties. Thus during World War II many of them served their country, as young husbands on the front and as young wives at home, before they could enjoy the mature "blessings of liberty." Like many others, Audie Murphy was a hero before he could vote.

What a Teenager most fears is a child of his own. His second greatest fear is death. And his third greatest fear is solitude. The thoughts "I can beget a child," or "I can bear a child," "I will die," and "I am alone," have often been the beginning of wisdom. The Teenager flees them. The Teenager cannot stand to be alone. For such a human being the natural mode of association is the gang. And how does one picture a gang of Teenagers, if not in a car speeding down the road, listening to rock music, and on drugs? Or at the rock concert in a gang of gangs? Or at the orgy?

These pleasures are powerful, absorbing, and "quickie." The Teenager craves a melody that will rock him around the clock forever, seeks an experience so intense that he will forget what time it is, and so absorbing that it will blot out all eternity.

Never does one see a smile on the faces of those enjoying these pleasures. The Teenager is the most free and the least happy of beings. Thoreau said most people lead lives of "quiet desperation." The desperation of the Teenager is not quiet. With the Rolling Stones, they shout, "I can't get no satisfaction." A being less acquainted with joy there has never been. A being more dangerous, it is hard to imagine. "Paint it black."

So far as I know, there have never been such youths on earth before. The Teenager is a novelty not only in the history of twentieth century America, but in the history of the human race.

You can read the whole article here: home-school.com/Articles/myth-of-the-teenager.php

ETA: I wonder how Dr. Platt defines adulthood. And when it occurs. I apologize this post is slightly off topic.

E(again)TA: it was briefly discussed here, http://freejinger.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1038

[lilah]

I suspect many fundie men are marrying fundie lite or even just conservative Christian girls.

They can date them instead of courting and get to know them without the pressure and expectations that a courtship involving all members of both families brings. They don't have to out fundie Daddy and memorise bible verses at his whim - a fundie lite father would probably be thrilled if a nice young Christian man was traditional enough to ask for his daughter's hand in marriage at all.

Then, once they marry, he's the headship, and he can take the family down a more conservative path if he chooses to, or he can enjoy the relative freedoms of a fundie lite lifestyle.

This leaves the fundie women, who don't have the option of choosing their own partners or even of meeting men outside those of whom their fathers approve, without marriage partners.

Fundie lite/conservative girls would also be more willing to be physically intimate with their future husbands be it holding hands, kissing, or more. I think it would be so hard to from having never held your partner's hand to losing yoru viriginity in one night.

[MamaJunebug]

mrs quoted Dr. Platt from "Myth of a Teenager":

What a Teenager most fears is a child of his own. His second greatest fear is death.

Srsly, Dr. Platt? This flies in the face of the convention that teens think they are immortal. Or ... is he saying that the feeling of immortality is there to mask the fear of death.

Also, Dr. Platt, let's say that a teen is chaste: why would s/he fear having a child of her/his own?

Conphoozing.

[JuJuBee]

Of course, it is harder to track the fundie guys, as they tend not to blog. However, it does seem like the brothers of fundie bloggers are getting married at a better rate than the bloggers and their sisters (Maxwells come to mind.) It also seems like many of the married fundie women who blog (or who have reality tv shows) were some flavor of mainstream Christian before they went all extreme for the LORD. Teri was normal(ish), Michelle was normal (and even has "baggage"), Abigail was normal (or at least pursued normal things, like education), Kelly Bates was normal...I could go on.

I kind of think these original marriages worked because guys like Steve Maxwell got the role of "saving" their imperfect spouse from sin and leading them to the Lord. There's a weird dynamic there where the couple believed they suddenly had this grand mission to give up the world and lead perfect Christian lives. While weird and a little sick to the rest of us, it has more excitement to it than perfect fundie guy meets perfect fundie girl and starts perfect fundie life. Subconsciously, Fundie guys must find these sheltered girls rather bland.

[mrs]

mrs quoted Dr. Platt from "Myth of a Teenager":

Srsly, Dr. Platt? This flies in the face of the convention that teens think they are immortal. Or ... is he saying that the feeling of immortality is there to mask the fear of death.

Also, Dr. Platt, let's say that a teen is chaste: why would s/he fear having a child of her/his own?

Conphoozing.

I think Dr. Platt would argue that teens are those who are not looking to the future to be an adult. In the article he calls the godly teens, "youths" and the ungodly teens "teens." He actually describes teens as,

Words such as upstart, brat, tough, rogue, and slut described deviations from the general good of "youth," not its characteristic features.

Where as, the "godly" youths are describe as

These young human beings were addressed as "Young man" and "Young woman." Looking at them, their parents thought, "My growing son," and "My growing daughter," and they addressed them as "Daughter" and "Son." Sometimes others addressed them as "Master" and "Miss." Even the words "gentleman" and "lady" were sometimes heard.

[AnnieC 305]

Here's another option from the thread on Hannah Williams being exhumed.

It was the Schatz case where I heard there was direct contact with Michael Pearl on the day Lydia died...instructions on how to keep spanking her for her disobedience to her parents.

When you adopt internationally you accept that certain things are simply unknown. Children not born in hospitals and/or with birth certitificates filed after the birth by a long delay are considered suspect for age. It doesn't MATTER what a child's biological age is. It matters what their psychological age is, and frankly unless there is a massive decrepency, you set their legal age to their psychological age. If there is a decrepancy, you go with the LOWER age, not the higher age.

Hanna's parents are trying to argue that Hanna was older than she was declared simply because she started menses so soon after she entered their home. First, some girls start menses early. I started right around my 10th birthday. Second, there is a proven link between long-term nutritional deficit and a SUDDEN increase in nutritional status sparking early onset of menses. They thought she was 11 when she came home, 13 when they KILLED her. She initialy gained 30 pounds before they starved her to death. Undoubtably they were horrified to see her gorge and gain so much weight. JERKS. She was supposed to gain that weight! It was certainly enough to cause an 11 year old girl to start menses all by itself.

What truly surprises me is that they didn't cause her menses to be arrested by the starvation they then put her through for having the audacity to grow and thrive initially. But then, the CPS report states even the bio kids were being malnourished and their food intake controlled, just not as severely as the adopted kiddos.

I've actually seen that in fundie homes, even ones that don't adopt. Slight malnutrition keeps the kids small, keeps the girls from developing sooner, saves on the grocery and clothing budgets and keeps children less able to rebel against parents. I've only known one fundie family admit to why they did it (he was a doctor and knew exactly what he was doing, especially to his adopted daughters) but I've seen LOTS of them do it just the same.

You have to be healthy enough for your hormones to really kick in before you start thinking of marriage and baby-making.

[dairyfreelife]

Many are still at home, living a life of prolonged adolescence, with no hopes of marriage in sight. What has caused this drastic change that has reshaped the lives of an entire generation into singleness?

I can't be the only one at that statement from Swanson. The irony! It burns! :twisted:

[RosyDaisy]

Did it ever occur to these idiots that some people want to be single, and that is has nothing to do with turning their backs on God, church, or the Bible? Apparently not.

[mrs]

I can't be the only one at that statement from Swanson. The irony! It burns! :twisted:

THIS :D

[Wolfie]

There seems to be a belief among some American's that marriage triggers "adulthood." It's not that you have to learn to be an adult, it's that you need to check the boxes for "have trappings of an adult." Marriage, a home, kids, all those types of things are what make you into an adult.

This isn't limited to fundies or one area, it seems to be pervasive in the lower middle class. On one side of my family my cousins are well educated, and some are rather wealthy. Being unmarried is fine with them- even the less educated on that side. The other side of my family the cousins seem to think that you're not an adult if you are not married with kids. I'm the only unmarried cousin on that side of the family and I've had some rough treatment from some, even though they're married with kids and their marriages don't seem all that stable, neither do their careers. I may not be married, but I have a stable job, own my own house on my own income, ect.

As my dad said recently about one of my cousins and his wife- they're "playing house."

[Dinorah]

Well, they create a system where they deliberately isolate the young from their peers, stop them from going to college or get a job, which are typical places where people meet partners, convince them that even the chastest, most platonic crush means "giving away pieces of your heart", deprive them of autonomy, rule out relationships with anyone who hasn't got exactly identical beliefs...and then they're surprised that young people don't marry?

[wild little fox]

Well, I'm a stay at home daughter, at 45. Never married. When my step-father started having health problems I chose to quit my job (I could not deal with my mother's nagging any longer) and I've been here every since. That was in 1997. Raised fundie in a lot of ways that damaged me. to where I have a lot of trouble functioning. I think if I would have been pushed out of the nest instead of coddled I would have done better. But then again, maybe not because of the damage done in my earlier years. When I was on my own I barely was able to hold down a minimum wage job and keep myself together. I could not do college at all and barely got through High School.

In the meantime my mother's health is failing and I have an autistic brother, who is two years younger then me. I have a "choice" now, either leave them and have a life or stay. I do have a relationship, but it seems that as soon as I am done taking care of my mother I will most likely spend the rest of my life taking care of my boyfriend because I don't see his health as holding out.

I'm not trying to shift blame. I am trying to learn how to take responsibility for my life and for my own decisions. If I sound like I'm victimizing myself, I apologize that is not my intention and I am trying to grow up. I'm at a crossroads.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there are a lot of broken children, who cannot function, as a result of this extreme fundamentalism. They will be broken adults. I have a cousin, who was raised in a lot more damaged situation than I was, as in there is no thought that it was wrong or abusive, and I never see him ever functioning as an adult. I wonder about his younger siblings.

I admire ANYONE who is able to get an education, hold a job, and take care of themselves let alone raise children.

[CynicMom]

Interesting story, wild little fox. Among your family and families that you know of who were raised this way what are the statistics? What percentage of the children have kept the same religion? What percentage are having a lot of children or homeschooling? Did you parents have dominionist leanings? I wish you the best of luck finding your own path. Have you thought about what you will do for income or health insurance once your family starts to pass?

[fundamentalistnomore]

I can speak from experience that it is TOUGH being a single adult in fundie world. At my former church, they only wanted couples to lead. This includes nursery, Sunday school, music, ushers. Marriage of course was promoted, but why was Jesus single? It made no sense and left me feeling worthless. Fortunately, I've recovered, haha! Marriage is not for everyone, I had a lot a maturing to do & I am soooo glad I did not get married.

*edited for spell check

[GenerationCedarchip]

Just updating this topic. Over at the UnMarried movie site, they talked about planning to produce the film for release this spring. Looks like that hasn't happened yet - perhaps a lack of funds? And lack of interest? They are still trying to solicit money over at the site. And I noticed that quite a few of the usual fundie blog suspects (Raising Homemakers, Jacinda and several others) are trying to get attention and interest via a dishwasher giveaway. You can get extra entries if you like UnMarried on Facebook.

I checked out the FB site, and there's actually some interesting discussion, including some Christian groups taking on the makers of the movie over their elevation of marriage to a requirement of sort for Christians:

facebook.com/pages/UnMarried-Movie/268337246621326?fref=ts

[lizziesmom]

Did it ever occur to these idiots that some people want to be single, and that is has nothing to do with turning their backs on God, church, or the Bible? Apparently not.

Uh --- priests and nuns are single. Jesus was single.

[Bookworm]

I've actually seen that in fundie homes, even ones that don't adopt. Slight malnutrition keeps the kids small, keeps the girls from developing sooner, saves on the grocery and clothing budgets and keeps children less able to rebel against parents. I've only known one fundie family admit to why they did it (he was a doctor and knew exactly what he was doing, especially to his adopted daughters) but I've seen LOTS of them do it just the same.

You have to be healthy enough for your hormones to really kick in before you start thinking of marriage and baby-making.