Judge says Hobby Lobby must offer BC coverage

[formergothardite]

I would just like to take this time to point out that they are not being forced to go agaisnt their religious beliefs. The morning after pill (the one they dont' want to cover) doesn't cause abortions. They have no problem with covering birth control, but medical procedures should be based on science, not propaganda, and they are attempting to use propaganda to deny medicine to their staff.

[formergothardite]

I wonder if they would have had more success if it actually did cause abortions, but as it is, they really couldn't defend in court that this was going against their religious beliefs by forcing them to pay for abortions, since, you know, it doesn't actually cause abortions. It would be no different than if a company went to court trying to get out of paying for antibiotics because they claim they contain the lava of the sun and sun lava kills people so that is against their religion, they would be laughed at and thrown out of court because obviously that isn't true. You can't just make up shit and use it it to deny your employees medical care.

And FYI everyone, SWL is a Christian, but she says the Bible/Jesus says that she only has to be nice to people who are nice to her and all those verses that state otherwise are just being taken out of context (won't explain in what context they are supposed to be taken in, though), so if she cusses at you or is rude to you, just know she is doing it for Jesus, this is how Jesus would treat you. I have to say, in all my years as being a Christian and being around Christians, this is the first time I've seen someone claim that. People usually at least pay lip service to the idea that Jesus wants us to be nice to everyone, even people who are rude.

[Ava]

You know, I've never understood the whole "we shouldn't have to use our money to pay for insurance to cover ___ because it's against our religion" argument, because either way they're the ones "paying" for it. If a Hobby Lobby employee who wanted to use bc but didn't get it through her insurance went and paid cash for it instead, where did that cash come from? Hobby Lobby. They're still the origin of the money, regardless of whether they pay an insurance company directly or they give the money to the employee to pay the insurance company and/or pharmacy instead. They're just two different forms of compensation. They may as well rant and rave about how their employees shouldn't be allowed to get drunk, or whatever else might be against their beliefs, using "their" money.

On the other hand, there's the practical side. What not covering bc does is effectively make it much more expensive, and since I can't imagine they are very generous with their hourly pay rates that means it's put out of the realm of affordability for some women. So then what? They get pregnant, and you have to provide maternity leave, which is much more expensive and much more of a hassle than providing contraception? Except, I bet that Hobby Lobby doesn't offer anything that remotely resembles decent maternity leave. So then their employees get pregnant, know they won't be properly supported for it at work, and get an abortion (with the money Hobby Lobby has paid them)? Or maybe they stop hiring women, or women stop wanting to work there? Really, what is the intended result of this? What did they think will happen? If their goal is preventing abortions, they're going about it in entirely the wrong way. Which tells me that it's not their goal at all - their goal is to get special treatment from the government for being Christian.

[notsocommon]

SWL, I guess paying a decent, livable wage and providing healthcare isn't a 'Christian value' according to you?

[Sprocket]

I believe the protection of religious freedom in the US stops before allowing one (person, company, etc.) to impose those beliefs on others, so no.

Don't you have your own thread now?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13944

[JenniferJuniper]

This must have been some particularly crazy loophole in your state's insurance laws, because I know people with MS and lupus that changed jobs and got on their employer's insurance within 6 months. They would use COBRA to cover the gap. This is prior to OC. Of course prior to OC these same people would not have been able to get an individual policy in the states they lived in.

Some states had more generous rules for those with employer-based group policies and pre-existing conditions, but the federal guidelines under HIPAA allowed insurers 6 months as a benchmark to exclude or deny based coverage upon pre-existing conditions.

COBRA could help bridge the gap between employer-based policies assuming one could afford to pay for the policy for 6 months. Depending on where you live, what sort of policy it was, and how many in your family were using the old policy, that could be very expensive. And in the case of an uninsured young person who was going from no insurance to a new employer or someone who no longer qualified for COBRA coverage, COBRA as a bridge wouldn't be an option for them.

Thankfully, this is not going to be an issue in the future, thanks to that Kenyan, Marxist, Muslim in the White House who wants to see all Americans dead. :P

[dairyfreelife]

I know who she is, and I don't think anyone cares whether she sees reason or not. I certainly don't.

But as you note, there are many other people reading out here and her bullshit makes good fodder.

You may know she is a troll, but some newer members may not be aware. It's just a warning for anyone reading.

Anyway, I'm glad Hobby Lobby lost. It's not their say what does or doesn't get covered. Employees pay into insurance, they should not be denied because their employers don't agree with taking the medicine. They going to deny anti-anxiety meds, antidepressants, antipsychotics, etc. too because they don't agree. Even though some antidepressant and anti-anxiety pills can help other conditions, they think it's against their religion so they won't cover it? If they are against hospital births? Traditional doctors? Chemotherapy? Radiation? Blood transfusions? The list goes on and on as to what an employer could deny if it's "against their beliefs" and that is dangerous and wrong.

If Hobby Lobby closes or drops hours they are hurting their employees and their employees' families on income and any insurance. How nice. Such lovely people who hurt 1000s because they don't get their way. I used to like Hobby Lobby stores. They had some neat stuff, but seeing how much of an asshole the owner is makes me never want to shop there again. Most business owners are greedy asses, but this is extreme. All because of a stupid pill.

[LucySnowe]

Some comments on the FB posting that the fundie on my friends list made:

Good for them for taking a stand but how very sad it has come to this.

Its a very strong stance they are taking, which is admirable....but hmmmmm. I'd definitely hate to see them close their doors over this!

So much for the "land of the free".

:roll:

[Minerva]

I'm surprised and thrilled by this news.

I would just like to take this time to point out that they are not being forced to go agaisnt their religious beliefs. The morning after pill (the one they dont' want to cover) doesn't cause abortions. They have no problem with covering birth control, but medical procedures should be based on science, not propaganda, and they are attempting to use propaganda to deny medicine to their staff.

Their beliefs are that women shouldn't enjoy sex without suffering the consequences. Which the Bible doesn't mention, but then again it also doesn't mention abortion...

[JenniferJuniper]

Their beliefs are that women shouldn't enjoy sex without suffering the consequences. Which the Bible doesn't mention, but then again it also doesn't mention abortion...

Argee. Fundies are far more Victorian than Biblical when it comes right down to it.

[doggie]

that's nothing my daughter went to the doctor for the first time after we had insurance for years. she was having headaches and was tired a lot. So all she had was a checkup and nothing was done and they denied it as a preexisting condition.

[redhotmess]

This made my day.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Nothing2CHere]

And Hobby Lobby would be within their legal rights to cut all employees hours to a point where they can stop providing health insurance completely. All the Obamacare supporters shouldn't really care anyway since those employees can always get insurance through either their state or the federal exchange.

Not trying to feed the troll, I just can't resist pointing out the irony. So, in order for a "Christian" employer to not be forced to pay for birth control coverage, they will possibly "cut their employees hours to a point where they can stop providing health insurance completely." Even though in the Bible, Jesus specifically says to take care of the sick (ie, provide health insurance) and says squat about birth control. :?

[Just_Jane]

I'm only on the first page. I just want to say "Yes, right on" for the decision.

This could easily be a slippery slope because what would prevent a JW or Christian Scientist ran business from denying insurance coverage for traditional medicine or blood transfusions.

Personally, I don't know why businesses didn't push for single payer healthcare because that would have been better for them.

[Witsec7]

Not trying to feed the troll, I just can't resist pointing out the irony. So, in order for a "Christian" employer to not be forced to pay for birth control coverage, they will possibly "cut their employees hours to a point where they can stop providing health insurance completely." Even though in the Bible, Jesus specifically says to take care of the sick (ie, provide health insurance) and says squat about birth control. :?

I'd like to know a bit more about the insurance they offer. Do they contribute to premiums? If they don't these are just right wingers posturing. So many of these companies claiming PPACA is gonna hurt them don't contribute to their employees ins. costs to begin with.

[JeanneD]

that's nothing my daughter went to the doctor for the first time after we had insurance for years. she was having headaches and was tired a lot. So all she had was a checkup and nothing was done and they denied it as a preexisting condition.

I was once denied coverage for being two pounds over the max BMI allowed. Two freakin' pounds.

[JenniferJuniper]

I was once denied coverage for being two pounds over the max BMI allowed. Two freakin' pounds.

It's all so incredible.

Nearly 50 years ago, the ever-prescient folk singer Phil Ochs wrote a tune called "The AMA Song" and many of the lyrics are still relevant.

"If you can't afford my bill, don't you tell me that your ill, 'cause that's the free enterprise way."

I just hope we don't have to wait another half century for a single-payer system.

[emmiedahl]

Evidently you don't understand the law. Even if a person decides to pay the fine instead of getting insurance, all they have to do is buy the insurance if they end up needing some major medical interventions. After all, the insurance companies won't be able to refuse anyone for pre-existing conditions. So, you wait until you get sick or need surgery and then buy the insurance.

Evidently you do not understand life. It takes time to sign up for insurance and they do not have to cover things that already happened. So when you have a heart attack, go to the hospital uninsured, are released 4 days later and then buy insurance, the insurance will not cover what already happened.

[mpheels]

And I got $5 that says they'll just put everyone at 29 hours a week and under so they won't have to pay for ANY kind of benefits. Then they can say, "It's the only way we can stay open and still adhere to our Christian values."

Starting in 2014, that won't work anymore :) When determining the size of a company for the purposes of offering health care (or paying into the exchanges), the Feds will take the total number of hours worked by part time employees in a month and divide by 120. So 100 part time employees working 20 hours/month will equal 66 full time employees.

[Witsec7]

Starting in 2014, that won't work anymore :) When determining the size of a company for the purposes of offering health care (or paying into the exchanges), the Feds will take the total number of hours worked by part time employees in a month and divide by 120. So 100 part time employees working 20 hours/month will equal 66 full time employees.

They should just quit their fucking whining. They merely have to offer coverage, businesses are not mandated to cover the cost of their employee coverage under the PPACA. The sea of lies just gets deeper.

[EmmieJ]

Here is a fact and inconvenient truth for the resident troll. I was denied insurance at the age of 24 (when I was no longer covered under my parents insurance) because I have mild/moderate asthma (back in 2008). I have never been in the hospital because of it for it. But, its the reason I was given by 4 different insurance companies. I am lucky to live in a state that had a high risk insurance pool. I got insurance that was partially covered under medicaid. Without so called obamacare, I would not be have gotten on my employers insurance plan.

Here's another inconvenient truth: I have worked for small employers for most of my career - it just turned out that way, and I like working for a sole business owner rather than a larger firm or corporation. It used to be that even small firms with 1-2 employees could afford to offer their employes health insurance - maybe even up to the year 2000. My employer at that time paid for my health coverage through Kaiser for myself and my son - in full! After that, I was self-employed for 3 years and managed to pay the cost of keeping Kaiser coverage for us both from my earnings, although each year those costs went up, up, up.

Then I returned to work for another small employer, and he could afford to pay $200/month toward my health coverage, which I gladly accepted. However, the premiums kept jumping each year, especially for me (as I got older). I finally got coverage for just myself through a local exchange, kept my son on his own plan at Kaiser, and between the two of us, health care costs per month were over $500. That's me in good health except needing to lose some weight - I rarely saw the doctor, no known health issues.

Then the recession really hit, hard. I lost my job with that employer but was able to get another with a small firm. They offered to pay $200/month toward my coverage, but I earned less overall than I had at my previous job. Something had to give in my budget, and it was my own insurance. I dropped it and became uninsured, because otherwise I could not pay the rest of my bills. During the time I was uninsured, I learned I had high blood pressure, and had an auto accident that caused chronic upper back pain and need for pain medications. When I tried to obtain health coverage after that - wow! The rates were over $600/month just for me. If it weren't for Obamacare, I would still be without coverage to this day. But when that bill passed, I was able to obtain "pre-existing condition" coverage through my state, at less than $400/month. I still think that premium is out of range for most people on lower income, but with my employer subsidising more than half now, I can afford it.

And there is no government interference in my health care. I see the doctor I choose, I get appropriate medical care and tests done as needed, and I am reassured to know that there is no cap nor lifetime limit on this coverage. It's funny how the term "Obamacare" was created to be derogatory -- but the President now owns it and I love the term, as much as I love my Obamacare.

[She Who Laughs]

There's no interference "yet." Just as they can change other aspects of the law, they can also change that part of it.

[She Who Laughs]

They should just quit their fucking whining. They merely have to offer coverage, businesses are not mandated to cover the cost of their employee coverage under the PPACA. The sea of lies just gets deeper.

I think that's a great idea! Businesses can just offer insurance but not pay any part of the premium and make the employees pay 100%. I hope they all start doing that and then we'll see how well the "affordable" part holds up.

[BravaAmica]

Starting in 2014, that won't work anymore :) When determining the size of a company for the purposes of offering health care (or paying into the exchanges), the Feds will take the total number of hours worked by part time employees in a month and divide by 120. So 100 part time employees working 20 hours/month will equal 66 full time employees.

Awesome! I knew there was a way to get those bastards to do the right thing. As much as I am enjoying watching Hobby Lobby clutch its pearls and whinge about teh ebil morning after pill which goes against their values (Oh! The humanity!), I'm delighted to know that they'll have to follow the law.

I hope the US gets single payer/Medicaid-for-all (i.e., on a sliding scale) sooner than later.

[Witsec7]

I think that's a great idea! Businesses can just offer insurance but not pay any part of the premium and make the employees pay 100%. I hope they all start doing that and then we'll see how well the "affordable" part holds up.

Actually any business that contributes to the cost of an employees insurance under PPACA will get their usual write off for the cost plus, a tax credit, and have their cost subsidized. Folks participating in exchanges will receive subsidies to cover their side of the costs of insurance, deductibles and copays.

You wingers really need to take some time to educate yourselves regarding the PPACA, the pearl clutching isn't working for douchenozzles like you. But hey you are free to spin it until you are dizzy.