Elizabeth Smart @ ABC should check out some fundies

[valsa]

Elizabeth Smart was a student at BYU, and then took her 18 month break to her her church mission in France. I don't know if she completed her degree at BYU though. If so, perhaps she was a psych major with hopes of one day helping other children in need.

According to an article put out by ABC, her major is in music.

[gustava]

Also, I think it speaks volumes that she was so easily programmed by her abductors. A heathen child most likely would have planned an escape, but her brain was wired from the get-go to be obedient. SHe has no other setting. She could probably be kidnapped again and do the same exact thing.

Let's not blame her for not escaping, or trying to escape. She'd been RAPED within hours of being dragged from her bed in the middle of the night. She was then tied up and kept tied up.

Jaycee Duggard was a "heathen" child. So was Patricia Hearst.

I will absolutely not not not go anywhere near suggesting that Smart was hardwired to be raped, abused, tormented....

I think it's a crime she didn't receive therapy but let's back away from any suggestion that being a subservient Mormon child contributed to lengthening her captivity.

[luckylibrarian]

The reason she's good for her position is because she can give a different perspective on the stories. Not a whole lot of kidnap victims can openly talk about what's happened. She's not an expert on child abuse in general, but how many experts on child abuse went through anything remotely like abuse or abduction?

Reporters are trained to be objective and not interject their experience. Expert correspondents typically have degrees in the field and enough experience to be objective. Considering the number of children who suffer through abuse, I don't think it's unlikely that many child abuse experts were once victims themselves.

A white man can't be an expert on being a black woman any better than someone who grew up wealthy and with every comfort in life can be a real expert on being abducted, kept in squalid conditions with barely enough to eat while being repeatedly raped. Reading from a book and experiencing something are drastically different things. Elizabeth may not have a degree, but she has very personal experience and an ability and willingness to talk that matter for more than reading out of a book. I'd rather listen to her talk about abuse and abduction than some rich guy who went to Harvard.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Someone who grew up wealthy doesn't know what it's like to be abducted and raped? Elizabeth Smart grew up in a ritzy neighborhood in a home worth millions. Your average reporter (i.e. not a Katie Couric or a Diane Sawyer) doesn't make a whole lot of money. Many come from middle-class backgrounds and claw their way up through the ranks.

The whole job seems like an odd choice. Aside from her lack of a degree or experience, she seems a bit shy. She has not been very public. In the few interviews she has given, she seems very quiet and measured in what she says. As someone else said, she comes across as "flat."

[Soulhuntress]

I believe Elizabeth herself said, in her interview on Oprah, she's never had regular therapy after her abduction, supposedly because she knew her parents were always there if she needed to talk. I believe she also said that in the week after she first got home, Elizabeth had a conversation with her mother where her mom said what happened to her was an "evil" and that, if she dwelled on it, she was only giving her abductor power over her. Sounds like a "keep sweet" pep talk to me.

A friend of mine (sexually abused though never abducted) was pretty pissed at what she viewed as Elizabeth's perpetuating of mis-information. That you don't need to get help after being victimized, you just need to "get over it".

A keep sweet pep talk indeed. No wonder she has a flat affect: she is keeping sweet at all costs. :( I seriously am praying for that girl.

[tehgoobster]

Let's not blame her for not escaping, or trying to escape. She'd been RAPED within hours of being dragged from her bed in the middle of the night. She was then tied up and kept tied up.

Jaycee Duggard was a "heathen" child. So was Patricia Hearst.

I agree with you. In situations like that, regardless of the reasons why the victim did not escape, it's not fair to blame the victim. The situation is usually extremely complicated.

I will absolutely not not not go anywhere near suggesting that Smart was hardwired to be raped, abused, tormented....

I don't think that anyone is hardwired to be raped, abused, or tormented, but I do wonder if being raised to be unquestioningly obedient from birth could put fundie children at a disadvantage in abusive situations, especially if their abuser is a parent or a family friend. Personally, I don't know enough about Elizabeth Smart's upbringing to even suggest that that could at least partially explain why she never tried to escape, but from the sounds of it, her kidnapper/rapist used fear, threats, and manipulation, and that definitely seems to have contributed to her never trying to break away. Fear and manipulation were used against Steven Stayner, Sean Hornbeck, and Jaycee Dugard as well. Not to get too off topic here, but I think it's interesting that some people escape and others don't. Maybe this has something to do with differing personalities and circumstances, but either way, blame cannot be placed on victims.

ETA: Actually, I think Elizabeth Smart may have tried to escape a few times, but she was kept in chains for much of her captivity. There were times when she was out in public and could have said something, but her kidnapper threatened to kill her if she ever tried to escape, so I think that that explains why she never said anything.

[Patsy]

I don't think that anyone is hardwired to be raped, abused, or tormented, but I do wonder if being raised to be unquestioningly obedient from birth could put fundie children at a disadvantage in abusive situations, especially if their abuser is a parent or a family friend.

I have no doubt that it does, and we've heard at least one account ('Razing Ruth''s) that explicitly says it does.

[Burris]

Let's not blame her for not escaping, or trying to escape. She'd been RAPED within hours of being dragged from her bed in the middle of the night. She was then tied up and kept tied up.

Jaycee Duggard was a "heathen" child. So was Patricia Hearst.

I will absolutely not not not go anywhere near suggesting that Smart was hardwired to be raped, abused, tormented....

I think it's a crime she didn't receive therapy but let's back away from any suggestion that being a subservient Mormon child contributed to lengthening her captivity.

I agree. I don't know that her lack of will to escape was necessarily the result of her upbringing. It may simply have been she was traumatized and afraid her abductor would hurt her family. There are so many different possibilities. (Human nature is a funny thing.)

And as to her getting a job for which she is unqualified - yeah, she did. But there are so, so many media talking heads and celebrity "journalists" out there who think 'research' is a dirty word. They were given a pass to stardom because they're obnoxious or pretty or friends with an exec. They didn't turn down the plum gigs, and I don't think she should have either.

[emesbe]

Oh geeze, please don't say you're another Mormon defender. The LDS church IS anti-therapy if it's done outside their church. My Mormon sister suffered from anxiety for years before she was finally allowed to get medication, with the caveat that it would only be temporary. Before that, she was told her anxiety was due to a lack of faith.

Once again....

My ward had no idea I was in therapy. They don't get a say if I have therapy or not, and who I go see. BYU will provide therapy for free, and they ask you if you would like to have any "church" perspective or talk about the church during your therapy. And you can say no. And they will still provide therapy.

I'm sorry about your sister. I also have anxiety, it was particularly bad when I was a single mom. I have been on medication for years. And it was prescribed to me by a physician. My church had (and has) absolutely zero to do with it.

[Soulhuntress]

Once again....

My ward had no idea I was in therapy. They don't get a say if I have therapy or not, and who I go see. BYU will provide therapy for free, and they ask you if you would like to have any "church" perspective or talk about the church during your therapy. And you can say no. And they will still provide therapy.

I'm sorry about your sister. I also have anxiety, it was particularly bad when I was a single mom. I have been on medication for years. And it was prescribed to me by a physician. My church had (and has) absolutely zero to do with it.

BYU therapy aka LDS Social Services sure as hell does tell your bishop what goes in in sessions (hint: free = paid by the lds church). They may not tell YOU but you can bet PEC and the Relief Society presidency knows and the bishopric knows. :roll: PEC = priesthood executive committee.

[Austin]

I don't think that anyone is hardwired to be raped, abused, or tormented, but I do wonder if being raised to be unquestioningly obedient from birth could put fundie children at a disadvantage in abusive situations, especially if their abuser is a parent or a family friend.

Aside from E. Smart completely, I think this should be a real concern for fundie parents. If you teach your kids to unquestioningly obey any adult, or even anyone older than they are, I think it can be argued that those kids are being set up to be abused. Not hardwired, just set up. When 20/20 had that program on the abuses with the IFB church, this was brought up repeatedly because those young girls didn't think they could say "no", even though of course they did not want to be raped at 14 years old or whatever.

I personally think that kids should be encouraged to question authority. If the authority is legitimate and not exploitive, there should be no problem with it being questioned at times.

As far as these girls escaping/not escaping, I think people just generally don't understand how quickly a captor can make a child or young person (any person) believe that they are their lone protectors, that their parents didn't want them, etc. Given certain situations, a person can pretty much be convinced of anything. Neither Jaycee or Elizabeth were even willing to tell authorities right away who they really were, even after it was clear that they no longer needed to stay with their captors - because of their conditioning.

The same is true for false confessions. I know a lot of people have problems believing that people confess falsely to crimes and I think it's because they don't undertand what coercion really is in all of its forms. I would contend that nearly any person, no matter what they believe their strength of will is, could be induced to confess to something that they didn't do. I'm not talking about torture, because that's really a rather ineffective way to coerce. But the mind is a thing that can really be screwed with, far more than people realize.

[emesbe]

BYU therapy aka LDS Social Services sure as hell does tell your bishop what goes in in sessions (hint: free = paid by the lds church). They may not tell YOU but you can bet PEC and the Relief Society presidency knows and the bishopric knows. :roll: PEC = priesthood executive committee.

Uh, no, they don't. It's not LDS Social Services. It's the same as any other therapy......confidentiality. They have no idea what ward I am in. They don't know my address. THey don't know I'm a member of their church unless I tell them.

I have been in a Relief Society presidency. They have no clue if anyone is in therapy. I have been in the bishop's executive meeting. Multiple times. There is no mention of therapy. THey would have no way to know, unless the person getting therapy tells them.

[Soulhuntress]

Uh, no, they don't. It's not LDS Social Services. It's the same as any other therapy......confidentiality. They have no idea what ward I am in. They don't know my address. THey don't know I'm a member of their church unless I tell them.

I have been in a Relief Society presidency. They have no clue if anyone is in therapy. I have been in the bishop's executive meeting. Multiple times. There is no mention of therapy. THey would have no way to know, unless the person getting therapy tells them.

Uh yeah they do when leadership has no concept of boundaries. Been in a BYU YSA ward. And had bishopric interviews that were at best inappropriate. And had lovely ward sisters sidle up and say "don't talk to so and so: they are ex'ed" and had bishoprics discipline rape VICTIMS while the rapist waltzed off scot free.

[emesbe]

Uh yeah they do when leadership has no concept of boundaries. Been in a BYU YSA ward. And had bishopric interviews that were at best inappropriate. And had lovely ward sisters sidle up and say "don't talk to so and so: they are ex'ed" and had bishoprics discipline rape VICTIMS while the rapist waltzed off scot free.

I'm sorry that you have had those experiences. That really blows. You're right, singles wards are like a whole different species.