what would your ideal society look like?

[LadyBBR]

I was thinking about the thread "want to join a fundie cult/commune" and wondering what other people's ideal (but still somewhat realistic) society would look like. I think the fundies have put out there what their ideal society would be. I don't agree, but I have to say I wish our society were different in a number of ways.

I find many of you are excellent at communicating this stuff. I am not totally sure what my ideal society would look like, but the first thing that comes to mind is a place where everyone gets what they need to live decently, ie enough food, clean water, shelter, education. Also, a place where people are free to live as themselves while still contributing to the community and respecting others.

Any thoughts?

[Brainsample]

Autonomy. Inalienable rights, as Thomas Jefferson penned them. I recently re-read the Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. Though I don't think that her version of the altruism of selfishness would work in today's world, I love her grasp for and appreciation for America's "rugged individualism."

There will always be problems in life and in society. There is no utopia, and it's my belief that the only way to succeed in creating a utopia involves totalitarianism. Humans have problems, and to get rid of problems, you have to force people to bury their humanity.

[fundiefan]

That sounds like a question put forth in a Humanities class, requiring a semester of research and writing. To me, at least, because that is the last time I heard the question asked. At that time it was asked in a class on Japanese culture and history so it was asked in the context of comparing and contrasting, and of course using other examples from other societies.

I didn't have an answer then and I don't have one now.

I would like less 'them versus us' mentality, on all issues. I would like more tolerance and respect. I would like less religious influence. I would like it to be impossible for money to control policy. (No rich lobbyists, businesses, etc influencing government policy that affects the average persons life). I would like to know I wouldn't lose everything and more if a medical issue arose. I would like to know that no one in need of life affecting and saving medical care would get it, whether they have money, insurance or nothing. I would like it to be possible for everyone who wants to work and is able to have a job that can support them and their family. I would like education to be a priority in all communities and for all children, no matter their parents choices or social position or anything else.

Those are things I'd like to see. But I have no clue how to make them happen, no clue how to get there, no clue what the ramifications could possibly be.

[Effie]

This will sound like a cliché, but in one way I think I'm living in my ideal society. We have social welfare and free health care for everyone. We don't allow home-schooling (unless the child is very sick and can't attend school) since we think education should be equal for everyone. Every child is supposed to learn 3 languages in school (Swedish, English and German/Spanish/French).

We all get contributions to study at university. I don't pay a dime for my studies at university unless I will exceed the 6 years-limit. :dance:

I know it's not a perfect society, but on the other hand I'm not sure if it can get much better, in reality. Oh well, we have this madman in my neighbouring country . We also had this kind of crazy gun-man who targeted foreigners this year. However, our government is investing a lot of money in preventive measures for youths living in problem areas and youths with aggression problems (we have programs like ART: aggression replacement training, which I have worked with for some months).

We don't allow children to get married or to get beat up (no spanking allowed since 1971). :angry-nono: Not any kind of abuse towards a child is okay here. Your child can be taken into protective custody if you verbally abuse her/him.

My country provides generous parental leave: all working parents are entitled to 16 months paid leave per child. To encourage greater paternal involvement in child-rearing, a minimum of 2 months out of the 16 is required to be used by the "minority" parent, in practice usually the father. :clap:

About religious influence, the church and state are separated here. When I was born they were not. Back then children were automatically registered in the Swedish church if one of the parents already were a member of the church. When I was a kid, our religion classes were focused on Christianity. Nowadays all religions are being taught as much. When I was a kid we went with school to church at Easter, Christmas and other occasions. Lately this tradition has been questioned, considering we have a lot of muslims in my country. More and more schools are banning the attendances at church. :clap:

[LadyBBR]

Effie, yes when I posted this I thought European societies are much closer to my ideal than what we have in the US. It's funny though, my husband works for a German company and so many of them prefer the US and move here permanently because they feel we live a more "comfortable" life (air conditioning, stores open at night and on Sundays, more choices).

[valsa]

Aw, I wanna live where Effie lives!

[DamnPrecious]

I think that everyone's ideal society would involve everyone be just like them. Which would alienate large groups of people. I agree with BrainSample.

People with strong ideas about my life should be run are no different than the fundies. Just because something is more pc does not mean it's right. Don't tell me what to do or how I should think.

[Guest Anonymous]

Aw, I wanna live where Effie lives!

Sweden is amazing. Two of my very best friends live there, and if it weren't for the fact that I would freeze to death I would want to live there too!

(One lives in Haninge, Stockholm, and the other lives in Finspång.)

[forever ago]

As Effie said, it's something like her ideal society, with a few minor changes.

Free health care and education for everyone, including college education. Gay marriage is legal, but only for those over 18, as nobody under 18 can get married, with or without parental consent. Sex education is comprehensive. The poor get benefits so that they can live in safe neighborhoods and go to quality schools and eat healthy food. Speaking of healthy food, it's cheaper than the HFCS-laden crap Americans don't have a choice but to eat since it's so ubiquitous.

School is much more challenging. Teachers are trained to use what works, not experimental techniques. School boards are made up of educators, not fundie parents with no experience in education. Schools are safe havens for children, not violent hellholes they need to escape everyday. there is no 'zero-tolerance' bullshit. Again, sex education is comprehensive, and also it's not just 1 or 2 weeks out of the PE course, it is a separate course lasting several weeks. Schools are not to serve at the whim of one parent, but many parents. The food in the cafeteria is healthy and delicious, not greasy and barely recognizable. The Pledge of Allegiance is not to be recited every single morning. Class times are shorter- 50-75 minutes at the max. not 90. Fine arts are given the attention and funding they need. There are no standardized tests before 8th grade (age 13-14, for those unfamiliar with the American education system). Whole courses are not derailed to fit one single standardized test. School buildings and transportation are in top shape, regardless of age. There is no "Freshman Academy" like at some schools in North Carolina, where high school freshmen are separated from everyone else. All changes to the rules are made clear and known long before the first day they take effect. All children are required to learn at least 3 languages (English, Spanish, and French/German/etc.) Okay, so I have a lot of issues with the high school I went to....

There is plenty of vacation time for all workers. New parents receive plenty of paid leave for each child. Everyone gets at least a few weeks of paid vacation, and plenty of sick days. Everyone is paid fairly.

There is no religious discrimination in any facet of life.

Child abuse is punished harshly. Rape is punished even more harshly. There is no death penalty, however, though life sentences mean 50 years or, you know, actual LIFE, whichever is longer. There are no shorter sentences. Jail time served before a conviction does not factor into a jail sentence. On the other hand, all prisoners are treated fairly, there are no ethnic gangs, no prison rape. People who are charged with using drugs are not imprisoned but instead sent to rehab. 'White collar' criminals go to the same jails as 'regular' criminals. There is no consideration given to the accused's social status, wealth, religion, or race. There are 'Romeo and Juliet' laws, so while the age of consent is 14 (well, provided the other partner is within 5 years the 14 year old's senior), a 15 year old cannot be charged with 'raping' a 13 year old. 'Offenders' are not put on the sex offender registry. Sex offenders are not persecuted and restricted to the point they become homeless- in fact, sex offenders (i.e., rapists and child molesters) are never let out of prison.

All religious references in government things (money, mottos, Pledge, etc.) added in 1954 or later are removed. There is no National Day of Prayer, at least one recognized by the federal government. The legal voting age is 16. There are more than two political parties. there are no longer any Republicans or Democrats, but a new a less corrupt conservative party and a new and less corrupt liberal party. Nobody is to be stopped from voting.

Civil rights are not sacrificed in the name of 'safety.'

Marijuana is legal.

Public transportation is readily available, and cheap, even in rural areas. All vehicles are clean and safe. There are bike paths and sidewalks everywhere. Driving laws are stricter. Driver's ed is free and given by the state. No religious or pro-life license plates are offered, in ANY state.

Advertising is much more restricted, and less ubiquitous. In fact, TV commercials may not be more than 30 seconds, and no more than 2 commercials may be shown during a break. Magazines have an advertising limit.

Some of this may be very weird, yes...

[valsa]

I think that everyone's ideal society would involve everyone be just like them.

To quote Lex Luthor- WRONG!

I'm a white, female, bisexual atheist. I have no need or desire for everyone to be just like me. Also, having a society which is inclusive and has equal rights for everyone is not "telling people how to live their lives".

Legalizing gay marriage doesn't force straight people to get gay married. Keeping church and state separate does not stop people from worshiping.

[JesusFightClub]

For a start, I'd want to see workers' control of the means of production. What this means in practice is imagine you went to work everyday and there wasn't a boss demanding ridiculous (and unmeetable) targets or penalising you for stuff like taking "too long" toilet breaks or (a favourite of my bosses) "not being corporate enough." Or talking to you in management speak...Or...well, fill in the blanks ;)

You feel happy and comfortable in your workplace, you could say how exactly it could be run and propose innovations, talking to your fellow workers. You aren't worried about cash or feeding your family. You have safe, comfortable and enjoyable housing. You're encouraged to pursue your outside interests. But you also enjoy going into work, knowing you are a valued and important individual.

You might choose to live communally or to live separately (and won't be judged ). But whatever you pick your childcare and medical care will 100 percent be provided. You wouldn't have a moment's worry about that or how you will pay. You know childcare and medical workers are highly valued in society and you will be getting only the best. And what was the defence budget is no longer needed so you aren't paying either.

Perhaps you are gay or anywhere on the LGBT spectrum. Your orientation is just everyday and normal. No one blinks an eyelid at two women, two men, a transman and a transwoman etc getting married. It just makes total sense that if they want to they would.

You're not white, maybe (I'm speaking about where I live). You're not a strange foreign usurper. You're a citizen and a comrade, if you would like to be. Maybe you came from an allied socialist state. How cool! We welcome you with open arms whether you did or you didn't, we will help you with language, acclimatisation and anything else.

Where do you want me to stop? :)

[DamnPrecious]

To quote Lex Luthor- WRONG!

I'm a white, female, bisexual atheist. I have no need or desire for everyone to be just like me. Also, having a society which is inclusive and has equal rights for everyone is not "telling people how to live their lives".

Legalizing gay marriage doesn't force straight people to get gay married. Keeping church and state separate does not stop people from worshiping.

So what about people who don't accept it?

[valsa]

So what about people who don't accept it?

It's not something you "accept" if it has nothing to do with you. It's a non-issue.

[DamnPrecious]

It's not something you "accept" if it has nothing to do with you. It's a non-issue.

I agree, but you can see here in the fundiverse, some people aren't live and let live. They will actively try to stop both of those issues.

[valsa]

I agree, but you can see here in the fundiverse, some people aren't live and let live. They will actively try to stop both of those issues.

Not allowing them to violate the rights of others is not telling them how to live their lives.

[DamnPrecious]

Not allowing them to violate the rights of others is not telling them how to live their lives.

Yes, it is. Not allowing someone to do what they feel as right, is holding them by your standards. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be laws, either. They don't agree with you so they can go kick rocks?

[Crackedeggs]

decentralized schools with much more freedom of choice for jr. and senior high school students including internships, apprenticeships, online learning opportunities, real world interactions that aren't all totally dependent on the traditional school model as it stands. Continuing education easily available and affordable for all. Affordable community day care available but not required. Universal health care. Universal availability ( and participation in) of work for all who can do it in some form. Elimination of ethnic and cultural ghettos. More open spaces and parks. no cheerleaders. band held in the same esteem as the football team. An understanding that teenagers become sexually mature long before they are financially mature, and in fact, loose their best childbearing years health wise to the structure of our educational system,. so a reorganization of how we go about our family and reproductive patterns. The total elimination of emotionally manipulative advertising - facts only, no bullshit, no sex, no fakery. Legalized pot.

[valsa]

Yes, it is. Not allowing someone to do what they feel as right, is holding them by your standards. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be laws, either. They don't agree with you so they can go kick rocks?

No, it's not. Gay marriage does not affect anyone who is not the gay people getting married. If someone feels it's not right to get gay married, they are free to not get gay married.

[debrand]

Yes, it is. Not allowing someone to do what they feel as right, is holding them by your standards. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be laws, either. They don't agree with you so they can go kick rocks?

I'm not certain that I understand your reasoning, Damn precious. It doesn't violate the fundies' rights because they are still free to not only dislike gay marriage but to not enter into a same sex union. Fundies just can't prevent someone else from having a same sex marriage.

Couldn't your reasoning be applied to prejudiced people who don't support interracial marriage?

[LadyBBR]

Yes, it is. Not allowing someone to do what they feel as right, is holding them by your standards. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be laws, either. They don't agree with you so they can go kick rocks?

I guess I really don't understand how gay marriage means "not allowing them to do what they feel is right or is holding them to your standard"? I'm not being difficult, I can't actually grasp it. No one will make people against gay marriage "do" anything. They will just have to tolerate that others do something different, they still can make their own choice. How do gay marriages actually infringe on someone else's rights? How does someone else having 19 kids infringe on someone else's rights? How does medical care for all infringe on someone else's rights? How does someone worshipping in their own way infringe on someone else's rights?

*Holding back because I just can't put my thoughts into concise enough words*

[DamnPrecious]

I'm not certain that I understand your reasoning, Damn precious. It doesn't violate the fundies' rights because they are still free to not only dislike gay marriage but to not enter into a same sex union. Fundies just can't prevent someone else from having a same sex marriage.

Couldn't your reasoning be applied to prejudiced people who don't support interracial marriage?

My original point for an ideal society is that everyone would think pretty much the same way. We are human, someone is not going to be happy. There will always be a group of people trying to change status quo and not only for good. I'm not talking about rights. I said that I agree with that point, but would the fundies? I don't think so.

[DamnPrecious]

I guess I really don't understand how gay marriage means "not allowing them to do what they feel is right or is holding them to your standard"? I'm not being difficult, I can't actually grasp it. No one will make people against gay marriage "do" anything. They will just have to tolerate that others do something different, they still can make their own choice. How do gay marriages actually infringe on someone else's rights? How does someone else having 19 kids infringe on someone else's rights? How does medical care for all infringe on someone else's rights? How does someone worshipping in their own way infringe on someone else's rights?

*Holding back because I just can't put my thoughts into concise enough words*

I've never said anything about rights. It was about whether someone is being told how to think or feel.

[valsa]

I've never said anything about rights. It was about whether someone is being told how to think or feel.

Your original post-

I think that everyone's ideal society would involve everyone be just like them. Which would alienate large groups of people. I agree with BrainSample.

People with strong ideas about my life should be run are no different than the fundies. Just because something is more pc does not mean it's right. Don't tell me what to do or how I should think.

Remind me when they changed the definition of "be" and "do"?

[DamnPrecious]

Your original post-

Remind me when they changed the definition of "be" and "do"?

I don't know how many other ways to try to explain what I was saying, but I have a feeling it wouldn't matter to you.

So yes, I'm wrong.

If anyone else is still confused as to what I am saying I'll still try to clear it up.

[LynnKaboom]

One where I'm a billionaire! And I'm Supreme Overlord of Earth.

OK, that was (mostly) a joke (being a billionaire would be nice!). My ideal society is based on transparency and freedom. Free speech for all. Government transparency is key, and said government pretty much minds its own business (you know, like running the country). As long as what you're doing doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else to freedom, then go for it. Anyone who abuses a child, however, will rot in prison for the rest of their life. Uncensored Internet connections for everyone, and law enforcement agencies would stop going after people who haven't really done anything wrong and instead go after domestic terrorists. Everyone would get three weeks paid time off, no matter how long you've been working for the company (two days or twenty years, you still get your vacation).

...I made myself sad. Why can't I live in that society?