Forced "Christian love"

[JesusFightClub]

So I decided that in order to follow Christ, I have to be deeply involved in the lives of people who have gross public sin, disregard or hate God, addicted to drugs, or sex, or conspicuous consumption of material goods. I have to demonstrate that they’re loved not because they’re worthy, but because it’s the part of the greatest commandment.

Comment from Stuff Fundies Like: http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2012/09 ... /#comments

Am I the only one who finds this creepy and offputting?

"I love you not because you're worthy of love, whatever mistakes you may have made. You're a useless piece of crap, but I love you because I'm told to."

If that's really a model of Christ's love, is it any wonder people aren't enthusiastic about it?

Loving me "in spite of myself" is something I've got off a few online Christians. It's always seemed repulsive and fake. "I don't like you, but I love you." No, you don't love me or like me in the slightest. "Jesus commands me to love you." That translates as you're vaguely attempting not to dislike me because a bloke out of a book tells you to. Wow.

FJist opinions? Have you heard this? Is "love" the right word?

[doggie]

This is a Jesus save me from your followers moment.

[Three and Done]

Comment from Stuff Fundies Like: http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2012/09 ... /#comments

Am I the only one who finds this creepy and offputting?

"I love you not because you're worthy of love, whatever mistakes you may have made. You're a useless piece of crap, but I love you because I'm told to."

If that's really a model of Christ's love, is it any wonder people aren't enthusiastic about it?

Loving me "in spite of myself" is something I've got off a few online Christians. It's always seemed repulsive and fake. "I don't like you, but I love you." No, you don't love me or like me in the slightest. "Jesus commands me to love you." That translates as you're vaguely attempting not to dislike me because a bloke out of a book tells you to. Wow.

FJist opinions? Have you heard this? Is "love" the right word?

[slh12280]

Well isn't that special? It reeks of "I am better than you but I was told I had to at least pretend to be nice to you."

[Arete]

Ah, the old "Love the sinner, hate the sin line". :roll: Jesus was kind of big on the "you have no right to judge, only God does" kind of stuff. There is definitely biblical evidence, in the KJV of all places, that Jesus liked certain people more than others. :shhh: You were to show love in the world by ACTIONS, like that business of taking care of the poor, freeing the captives, and visiting those in prison. A very wise man, who happened to be a priest, once told me that if we concentrate on the great commandment (love that is backed up with actions), the great commission (which in fact can be interpreted as bring the kingdom of God, or universal justice and peace to the world) would take care of itself. Instead, as Christians we show our collective asses to the world, and wonder why it runs screaming. :think:

[emmiedahl]

Comment from Stuff Fundies Like: http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2012/09 ... /#comments

Am I the only one who finds this creepy and offputting?

"I love you not because you're worthy of love, whatever mistakes you may have made. You're a useless piece of crap, but I love you because I'm told to."

If that's really a model of Christ's love, is it any wonder people aren't enthusiastic about it?

Loving me "in spite of myself" is something I've got off a few online Christians. It's always seemed repulsive and fake. "I don't like you, but I love you." No, you don't love me or like me in the slightest. "Jesus commands me to love you." That translates as you're vaguely attempting not to dislike me because a bloke out of a book tells you to. Wow.

FJist opinions? Have you heard this? Is "love" the right word?

It is definitely the opposite of the love I have for my husband.

I love him because he is noble and trustworthy and kind-hearted and always makes the best of a situation. He is the person you want at your side when you are in a hospital room crying and also the person you want at your side when having the best time of your life. He is equally loveable in everyday moments, folding laundry together after children are finally in bed or just having a drink at the end of a long day. We have been through a lot over more than eleven years of marriage and I still want him here. He listens when I chatter about children with cancer and carbon footprints and all my dreams of saving the world. He loves that I want to heal the world and I love that he can exist so perfectly content on an imperfect planet. When I read this bullshit that fundies write about marriage, I realize how lucky I am. Because I enjoy sharing life with my husband and luckily, I get to do so until death do us part. No one told us to love each other; in fact, our marriage crosses lines of age and religion and ideology. I don't love him because I am supposed to, but rather because I cannot help it. We know and understand each other in this fundamental way that cannot be denied.

So, from my perspective, as half of a marriage that has been through better and worse and everything in between, I think these people suck. It sounds like a lifetime of loneliness and bad sex to me.

[Arete]

JFC, I read the whole comment that your quote came from. While I agree that the whole love the sinner, hate the sin is pretty shitty and hypocritical, I actually like where it took this guy. Drug addicted family member in a conservative Christian state was being left to die due to lack of services, and bringing them up north to a heathen state that actually offered services for drug addicts who had no ability to pay saved that addict's life. Now granted your quoter sees the real value of social services to be they allowed his relative to live and "get saved". :roll: However the experience lead the quoter to start voting based on social justice. He may be hypocritical, but every vote around here counts. I'll give the guy some slack for realizing he needed to change in the voting booth in order to see people get help and care, even if it is because he felt ordered to by a book. Baby steps, baby steps.

Edit for clarity

[Cran]

This is creepy and offensive to me, because people who say this don't really LOVE the person they are talking about. They are using them as a vehicle for their "Christianess". Being used is the complete opposite of being loved. I do not want to be "befriended" because I am an Atheist (adulteress, witch, smoker, abortionist, alcoholic, whatever), I want to be befriended because the person values and likes me, and I answer this feelings.

[Swamptribe]

A lot of Christians of the fundie bent. Hell, even the regular christians lead very false lives. The whole 'don't like you but love you' screams of in-sincerity. They are just repeating a mantra to try and keep suck up to Jesus. it's up there with 'judge not' while judging. "I have a relationship with Jesus' and "I'll pray for you'. Their lives are run by bumper sticker slogans.

[ElphabaGalinda]

This is creepy and offensive to me, because people who say this don't really LOVE the person they are talking about. They are using them as a vehicle for their "Christianess". Being used is the complete opposite of being loved. I do not want to be "befriended" because I am an Atheist (adulteress, witch, smoker, abortionist, alcoholic, whatever), I want to be befriended because the person values and likes me, and I answer this feelings.

I find it creepy and offensive too. It's like saying I'm going to be your friend even though I think I'm superior to you in every way and you're not actually worthy of my friendship. They are only doing it because they think their religion says so, and that's false and just using the other person. I don't know how someone can live with being so false to people. Seems like an unChristian thing to do.

[Loveday]

Ah, the old "Love the sinner, hate the sin line". :roll: Jesus was kind of big on the "you have no right to judge, only God does" kind of stuff. There is definitely biblical evidence, in the KJV of all places, that Jesus liked certain people more than others. :shhh: You were to show love in the world by ACTIONS, like that business of taking care of the poor, freeing the captives, and visiting those in prison. A very wise man, who happened to be a priest, once told me that if we concentrate on the great commandment (love that is backed up with actions), the great commission (which in fact can be interpreted as bring the kingdom of God, or universal justice and peace to the world) would take care of itself. Instead, as Christians we show our collective asses to the world, and wonder why it runs screaming. :think:

I don't usually care whether we have like buttons here or not, but in this case we're in dire need of one. :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Deleted05]

It is definitely the opposite of the love I have for my husband.

I love him because he is noble and trustworthy and kind-hearted and always makes the best of a situation. He is the person you want at your side when you are in a hospital room crying and also the person you want at your side when having the best time of your life. He is equally loveable in everyday moments, folding laundry together after children are finally in bed or just having a drink at the end of a long day. We have been through a lot over more than eleven years of marriage and I still want him here. He listens when I chatter about children with cancer and carbon footprints and all my dreams of saving the world. He loves that I want to heal the world and I love that he can exist so perfectly content on an imperfect planet. When I read this bullshit that fundies write about marriage, I realize how lucky I am. Because I enjoy sharing life with my husband and luckily, I get to do so until death do us part. No one told us to love each other; in fact, our marriage crosses lines of age and religion and ideology. I don't love him because I am supposed to, but rather because I cannot help it. We know and understand each other in this fundamental way that cannot be denied.

So, from my perspective, as half of a marriage that has been through better and worse and everything in between, I think these people suck. It sounds like a lifetime of loneliness and bad sex to me.

That's just beautiful.

[caito]

I hate the love the sinner, hate the sin thing.

[gravelmonkey]

My parents love to hate the sin, but love the sinner. Oddly enough, their version of love typically means lots of criticism, snide remarks and better-than-thou lectures. Way to be like Jesus! :roll:

[maybeizfundie]

Understanding what a dead, miserable wreck I was (and Christ loved me anyways) made me realize that we have to model that for everyone, not demanding that they “get right†first, but delivering grace despite themselves, as Christ did for us.

I'm curious about thoughts on this part of the same person's comment? Does it change the way you view the part that was first quoted in the OP.

She could still be a self-righteous jerk, that's totally a possibility. But reading the above filters it a little differently for me. What I'm getting is that she at some point recognized that she is *not* superior to others and that as Christians we have an obligation to show grace and love without demanding people reach some level of "worthyness" (according to us/doctrine) before we're willing to give it. ETA: if that's what she meant I think the comment could have been worded much, much better. I cringed at reading "even the...dark-skinned." What? Huh?

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm curious about thoughts on this part of the same person's comment? Does it change the way you view the part that was first quoted in the OP.

She could still be a self-righteous jerk, that's totally a possibility. But reading the above filters it a little differently for me. What I'm getting is that she at some point recognized that she is *not* superior to others and that as Christians we have an obligation to show grace and love without demanding people reach some level of "worthyness" (according to us/doctrine) before we're willing to give it.

I really don't see that. Even in his analogy, he is Jesus and we are the unwashed masses. It also includes a shit of a lot of judgement on anyone who is not "right" by whatever his standards are. The message is still the same, it's love in spite of some awful sin that he perceives in everybody else.

ETA: Ah crap, having read only the sampled quotes, I've gone and confused myself. Is this a man or a woman? Crap.

Edited to change she/her to he/his.

[JesusFightClub]

JFC, I read the whole comment that your quote came from. While I agree that the whole love the sinner, hate the sin is pretty shitty and hypocritical, I actually like where it took this guy. Drug addicted family member in a conservative Christian state was being left to die due to lack of services, and bringing them up north to a heathen state that actually offered services for drug addicts who had no ability to pay saved that addict's life. Now granted your quoter sees the real value of social services to be they allowed his relative to live and "get saved". :roll: However the experience lead the quoter to start voting based on social justice. He may be hypocritical, but every vote around here counts. I'll give the guy some slack for realizing he needed to change in the voting booth in order to see people get help and care, even if it is because he felt ordered to by a book. Baby steps, baby steps.

Edit for clarity

See what you mean, certainly some good came of it. However I will quot the bit you are referring to (I find SFL's site a bugger to navigate around, myself! hope I get this right)

I had to bring a drug-addicted family member from a vicious red state where she was locked up and left for dead. Brought her up north where she received addiction services, mental health and basic medical care, generally for free. We couldn’t afford any of it, that’s for sure. She cleaned up (somewhat) and lived for several more years, at which point she became a believer. Had she been left to die as the “Christian†state she came from was content to do, she’d be lost.

I also realized through that we have a duty as a society to care for the cast-offs of society, even the lazy, drug-addicted, dark-skinned etc. Understanding what a dead, miserable wreck I was (and Christ loved me anyways) made me realize that we have to model that for everyone, not demanding that they “get right†first, but delivering grace despite themselves, as Christ did for us.

There are a shedload of problems with this. While I'm happy that the addicted lady got help, I do not like the implied "Well, we couldn't afford any of it but we helped this dirty sinner grudgingly so she wouldn't go to hell, aren't we great". Having some experience of addiction and addicts, they don't think they are fantastic people. The source of addiction may make them behave very selfishly and dislikeably at times, but in the inner core of them I think many of them feel terrible and need a reassurance that they are valued for themselves. This can help those people break free out of an addiction and find valuable, happy lives.

If, for example, we met a man using crutches to walk. He had broken his leg many years ago but it had healed completely and his legs were now perfectly fine to walk on. However he couldn't drop the crutches. He became very shaky and nervous if you suggested that he should put the crutches down and they became an excuse for not doing anything because "my bad leg just won't allow it". Many times he'd lie and say he couldn't do something when he could but he was too scared to without his crutches, and he couldn't take them where he'd have to go.

There are 3 options for dealing with this man (aside from ignoring him, which is a different moral issue):

1. "Oh, you just keep the crutches if it makes you feel better! Hell you've been on them for such a long while anyway and whatever gets you through the day! We all have something, don't even TALK to me about chocolate cake, serious! LOL!"

2. "Look, comrade, we've been noticing for a while you don't really need those things any more. You really wanted to do that activity, but the bloody crutches got in the way, right? And you have two good legs, even if you don't realise it right now...yeah, I know, I know. It'll take time but I'd be so happy if I could help you get rid of them for good, shall we make a plan?"

3. "God, you are so fucking pitiful. Seriously, everyone knows you don't need those. Look at me, I hurt my leg worse than yours, do you see me hobbling about looking for the sympathy vote? Well, I'd like to say "fuck you" but *sigh* I suppose I'm going to have to help you. It's my duty, and I am a GOOD PERSON who ALWAYS DOES MY DUTY. It's going to cost me, and you'll never be as good as I am, but I'll deal with it. I hope you realise what a burden you are."

I feel like (and granted, I wasn't there nor do I know the details) that poster sounds like #3.

#1 is obviously very bad for different reasons, but #3 isn't exactly a model of Christian compassion. The fact that the poster boasted about how much it had cost but he did it anyway BECAUSE CHRIST - I wonder how that woman felt knowing she was being tolerated to rack up points in heaven for someone else?

Also, what's up with equating "lazy", "drug-addicted" and "dark-skinned"? :shock: I'm going to hope that was just terrible phrasing...

(PS: Sogba, there are numerous Chrisses there, but I think this is a bloke.)

[Arete]

I agree, there are a shedload of problems with this, and his position is not the moral high ground. But there are a lot of feral "Christers" like this who also think the addict, prostitute and "dark skinned" deserve to die in the street. Not to mention the 17 year old girl that got pregnant, the guy with MS who gets fired from his job, etc. Feral "Christers" who vote their convictions. With so many of these types here voting their convictions, I feel like I'm in the situation of "beggars can't be choosers". He went through some things and made a particular change, and I'm hoping that forward momentum will keep going. First we crawl, then we walk.

[patsymae]

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."[3]

[Rosa]

I actually give him a pass for the "we can't afford it" comment - it's a shoutout to the state's social services. Because in states where (Christian) rightwingers vote against services for addicts, not being able to afford treatment means not getting any.

Yes, that's right. In America, it can be life or death WHERE you fall ill.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I know people who do take "love thy neighbor" very, very seriously. They are taught that this is mandatory, and it is not conditional upon the other person meeting their approval.

I happen to like that teaching, so I won't snark on it. To me, it's the religious equivalent of human right legislation: people are entitled to basic civil rights, regardless of whether or not they are likeable.

Now, the people that I know who are committed to this principle will admit that it is HARD. They are human, after all. They naturally like some people, and get irritated by others. It's hard to feel love for someone who is attacking you. It's clear that they struggle with it - but they are still committed to the concept.

There is a fine line is carrying out this principle, because it doesn't work if it is not sincere. I've seen people who were tremendously moved because someone else cared for them, offered support, welcomed them, advocated for them, etc. with open arms. They felt that it came from the heart, and it moved them. OTOH, I've seen people turned off when they felt like the love wasn't genuine, that it was only offered because it was part of a training manual, or that it only lasted as long as someone was viewed as a potential religious recruit.