Saying "No" is not enough

[Cran]

When I started my Emailcenter today, I was greeted by some news that made my hair stand up.

http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/skand ... 19375.html

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20120914-44961.html

A 31 year old male went to his flat with his partner, her daughter and another grown-up, he was probably drunk and might have smoked something. At some point, he sent the grown-ups out and had sex with the daughter, who is 15 (!).

She needed a half year to work up her courage and go to the police, where she stated that she didn't want sexual intercourse with this man and said to him once "Nein, ich will nicht!" (No, I do not want this!").

Such a guy, raping a child, should go to prison for a long time, right? Well, not according to the (female) German judge. He was ACQUITTED this week!

Why? Oh, the (female) prosecutor and the judge thought she hadn't made it clear enough that she didn't want it, she should have screamed and run away!

Don't mind that he's 31, which constitutes a crime in itself if he sleeps with a child, even if it would have been consensual, she was probably in shock and DID say no. No, you have to die first trying to get away before you can be believed, obviously.

I am absolutely horrified by the victim-blaming, blatant injustice and misogyny exhibited by this court. This is supposed to be JUSTICE!

My belief in our justice system has received a heavy blow, I mean, this is Germany, for someone's fucking sake, not Saudi-Arabia where "your burqa is too tight so you deserved it" has been used as a, no less outrageous, argument.

[Deleted03]

urgh. Judges disgust me. I was reading this huge article yesterday on firefighters scandals in France. There has been several indictements of firefighters having group sex with a 13 yo and a 16 yo. For the 13 yo only 3 were fired, the others are still firefighters and the judges were very lenient. One of the union bosses said something to the effect that you know it's just a career incident so no reason to fire them. Because really abusing a 13 yo who has anxiety issues (and loses consciousness... yeah they did a lot of interventions on her, they knew her) is really just an incident.

There needs to be rethinking about sex crimes.

[samurai_sarah]

I read the German story too, and am still incoherent with rage. A grown man has sex with a child against her will, and that's not rape, because she didn't scream or fight back? In the article I read, the author said that the man was known to get violent, so maybe there's the reason the girl didn't fight back? Never mind that that's completely besides the point! Ugh. I can't drink as much as I want to vomit right now!

[Claddagh]

I don't have to worry about my low blood pressure right now as I am so angry about this.

The poor girl said "no" and that should be enough! I am so sick of victim blaming.

Stop the world please, I want off.

[Katydid]

I hate this. Damn victim blaming. Too many rape victims suffer in silence because of the stigma, and the probability that they will be dragged through the mud while their assailants go free.

[shesinsane]

Someone in Todd Akin's office cannot wait to show him this and arrange an endorsement from Germany. They obviously understand "legitimate rape". :roll:

[Khiwanean]

If I recall correctly, the age of consent there is 14. So this wasn't statutory rape. It was still rape and that man should NOT have been acquitted.

[Anxious Girl]

If I recall correctly, the age of consent there is 14. So this wasn't statutory rape. It was still rape and that man should NOT have been acquitted.

It doesn't matter if it's statutory rape, or voluntary sex and the girl said no in the middle 'cause she didn't want to have sex anymore; or if she was drunk; so they guy went ahead. Rape is rape. I'm tired of of different types of rape that conservatives and misognyists seem to think there are, because rape is rape. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you realize rape is rape, whether it's statury or not. (If I'm wrong about the statutory rape thing, please correct me. * :oops: * )

[Guest Anonymous]

What the hell is with all of this awful rape news lately?* Has it always been like this, and I've just not noticed, or is something shifting?

*I know there's no such thing as good rape news, but you know what I mean.

[wtfrenchtoast]

It doesn't matter if it's statutory rape, or voluntary sex and the girl said no in the middle 'cause she didn't want to have sex anymore; or if she was drunk; so they guy went ahead. Rape is rape. I'm tired of of different types of rape that conservatives and misognyists seem to think there are, because rape is rape. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you realize rape is rape, whether it's statury or not. (If I'm wrong about the statutory rape thing, please correct me. * :oops: * )

Actually, Khiwanean was right that this wasn't statutory rape if the age of consent is 14. But she also said "It was still rape and the man should NOT have been acquitted." She clearly understands that this was a case of rape, just not statutory rape.

Reading these things makes me sad and angry. I know some women who have been raped or otherwise assaulted, and not pressed charges. Can anyone really blame them when judges will pull shit like this? And then you have to go through the whole public trial process, which more often than not is focused on the character of the VICTIM, not the rapist. So if he isn't found guilty, now you have people treating you like trash because they think you lied. Even if he is found guilty. Why is saying NO, even once, not enough? No means NO. No matter how many times you say it.

[Guest Anonymous]

That infallible source of legal info, Wikipedia, tells us:

The age of consent in Germany is 14, as long as a person over the age of 21 does not exploit a 14–15 year-old person's lack of capacity for sexual self-determination, in which case a conviction of an individual over the age of 21 requires a complaint from the younger individual; being over 21 and engaging in sexual relations with a minor of that age does not constitute an offense in and of itself. Otherwise the age of consent is 14, although provisions protecting minors against coercion apply until the age of 18 (under section Section 182(1) it is illegal to engage in sexual activity with a person under 18 "by taking advantage of an exploitative situation"[19]).

So there is some statutory protection for people under 18.

[Anxious Girl]

Actually, Khiwanean was right that this wasn't statutory rape if the age of consent is 14. But she also said "It was still rape and the man should NOT have been acquitted." She clearly understands that this was a case of rape, just not statutory rape.

Reading these things makes me sad and angry. I know some women who have been raped or otherwise assaulted, and not pressed charges. Can anyone really blame them when judges will pull shit like this? And then you have to go through the whole public trial process, which more often than not is focused on the character of the VICTIM, not the rapist. So if he isn't found guilty, now you have people treating you like trash because they think you lied. Even if he is found guilty. Why is saying NO, even once, not enough? No means NO. No matter how many times you say it.

Because of popular tv shows where people explain to the poor menz that when he asks a girl out and she says no; that she's just playing hard to get? And people say there's no evidence or even such an issue as rape culture.

[wtfrenchtoast]

I stand corrected about the statutory rape thing then. Thank you sogba. I should have looked it up before saying anything.

Anxious Girl, I agree with what you're saying. We do have a culture where sometimes "No" means in the minds of people that they should try harder. Clearly there is evidence for rape culture. I was just disagreeing with your comment to Khiwanean, that s/he doesn't understand rape.

[Anxious Girl]

I stand corrected about the statutory rape thing then. Thank you sogba. I should have looked it up before saying anything.

Anxious Girl, I agree with what you're saying. We do have a culture where sometimes "No" means in the minds of people that they should try harder. Clearly there is evidence for rape culture. I was just disagreeing with your comment to Khiwanean, that s/he doesn't understand rape.

I understand. I'm sorry my reply wasn't clearer. I was trying to answer your question "Why is saying NO, even once, not enough?" :doh: :oops:

[wtfrenchtoast]

I understand. I'm sorry my reply wasn't clearer. I was trying to answer your question "Why doesn't saying no once?" mean nothing; or something along those lines. :doh: :oops:

Ah, I figured that's what it was! Sorry about the misunderstanding then. No hard feelings :)

[Mela99]

Sigh... Germany...

[Khiwanean]

It doesn't matter if it's statutory rape, or voluntary sex and the girl said no in the middle 'cause she didn't want to have sex anymore; or if she was drunk; so they guy went ahead. Rape is rape. I'm tired of of different types of rape that conservatives and misognyists seem to think there are, because rape is rape. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you realize rape is rape, whether it's statury or not. (If I'm wrong about the statutory rape thing, please correct me. * :oops: * )

I said, "It's still rape".

Maybe I didn't make it clear: It is rape. I absolutely disapprove of the judgement. In fact, I'm rather angry that this judge seems to think that saying no, even once, does not consititute non-consent or withdrawl of consent. I just meant to point out, because it seemed to me that others did not know, that having consensual, non-coercive sex with a 15-year-old is perfectly legal in Germany. This obviously wasn't consensual, so it qualifies as rape.

[Sunnichick31]

*head desk*

What the hell is going on in the world today? Seriously. Are they putting something in the water or in the air? Is that why people are going batsh*t crazy??? Anyone want to go be a hermit in the mountains with me that way we won't have to put up with this stuff?

Mela99- I love your avatar!