Dear Prudence's disturbing response to marital rape

[Three and Done]

This particular topic is very triggery for me.

I was in a long term relationship, I was drunk, I said NO - I woke up to him penetrating me. THAT WAS RAPE, as far as I am concerned.

A person under the influence of alcohol is NOT capable of giving consent, period.

[emmiedahl]

I feel perfectly capable of giving consent while intoxicated. And if you said no, then it absolutely was rape and there was no consent given.

[kb2]

Advice columns are supposed to address a problem multiple people might have, so it's kind of concerning that she thinks women who kind-of give consent but feel coerced later are a group who need to be told to get over it.

[lilith]

I'm not comfortable with the idea that alcohol makes one completely incapable of consenting to sex.

I have a few drinks while I cook dinner most nights. If that negated my ability to consent then either my partner and I would never have sex or almost every time would technically be rape cause I was unable to consent.

Of course the rules are different in long term relationships. My partner will come to bed while I'm asleep and start touching me. If I'm into it it continues, if I say no he stops and I go back to sleep. But if I wasn't in a long term sexual relationship with him there is no way I'd be ok with him coming into my bed and touching my breasts while I slept. So there is a level of implied consent there, implied consent that can, of course, be revoked at any time.

I've had drunk sex, with both of us drunk or just one. Sometimes alcohol has lessened my inhibitions enough to enjoy new things that I might not have been brave enough to admit to wanting to try when sober. Usually this is wonderful, a few times I've decided that the experience wasn't one I've wanted to repeat - and I've also changed my mind midway and had my drunken partner respect that drunken decision.

In my opinion alcohol neither takes away your ability to consent or negates the consent you have given. If you are unconscious that is an entirely different matter, as you are unable to consent or to know if you wish to continue to consent. But waking up the next morning and regretting the act you were a willing participant in the night before doesn't make that act rape. It means you need to focus on your boundaries and self awareness so you don't consent to things you regret. For some people that may mean not consenting to sex after they have been drinking. Most people, however, are perfectly capable of giving informed consent while under the influence.

[Anise]

I'm not comfortable with the idea that alcohol makes one completely incapable of consenting to sex.

Personally, I think that consent is more complicated and individual. For example, some people may be comfortable with consenting to sex while intoxicated as you pointed out and other people would not be. I would guess that this would have to be a conversation that a couple would decide on while sober. Additionally, it might make a difference to some people whether the consent was for initiating a sexual relationship versus continuing one. And also levels of trust etc.

However, it's probably best not to assume that a yes while drunk is actual consent universally, and then give advice to someone obviously not comfortable with it as the author of the response did.

[snarkbillie]

I was in a similar situation, not with someone I married, but someone I knew well. We were drinking. We went to bed. I took my clothes off and proceeded with the act, but before we could finish, and before penetration, I passed out. He did it anyway.

In no way do I think I was raped. If I had been awake, I would have had sex with him. In the 27 years since this happened, it has never, ever occurred to me that anyone would consider what he did to be rape. I was a willing participant, right up until I passed out. When I awoke, I would have had sex again with him, no problem.

I don't think this woman was raped, either.

I think it's important to remember that just because you're okay with something someone else might not be. I would feel very violated if someone had sex with me if I passed out, for a variety of reasons. First I believe that sex requires continuing consent. That means my partner and I can each stop the act at any point for any reason. If I'm passed out that choice is taken away from me. Second, I would have no idea what was going on when I was passed out. I might consent to vaginal penetration but not anal. I might consent to sex with a condom but not without. Once I'm unconscious all bets are off. I have no way of controlling what happens to my body and I feel like it's not okay for someone to take advantage of that situation.

I do know a couple who get off on fucking each other when the other is incapable of protest, i.e. she takes pills and goes to sleep and lets him go at it. Far be it from me to say whether or not that's okay for them, but it's not okay for me. I don't think it would be fair for her to tell me that I wasn't raped based on her own sexual habits. Sex is personal, what works for some doesn't work for others. If I told my partner that I don't feel like I can consent when I'm drunk, they'd better not try to start anything while I'm drunk because that's over the line, Imho.

[emmiedahl]

Whether she was technically raped or not does not have any bearing on the fact that she *feels* violated and raped. I wish the advice columnist had addressed this instead of berating her. If she feels violated, they need therapy and maybe a divorce. I wonder if she was raped or sexually abused before. It could be that she gets really triggery about sex when she is out of control in any way and that certainly needs dealt with.

[valsa]

I was in a similar situation, not with someone I married, but someone I knew well. We were drinking. We went to bed. I took my clothes off and proceeded with the act, but before we could finish, and before penetration, I passed out. He did it anyway.

In no way do I think I was raped. If I had been awake, I would have had sex with him. In the 27 years since this happened, it has never, ever occurred to me that anyone would consider what he did to be rape. I was a willing participant, right up until I passed out. When I awoke, I would have had sex again with him, no problem.

I don't think this woman was raped, either.

Did you give the guy an okay to have sex with you if you passed out, before you passed out?

Even if I were okay with someone having sex with me while I was unconscious, I would feel violated if someone had sex with me while I was unconscious without having been told beforehand that I was okay with it. From the point of view of the guy, he's having sex with an unconscious woman and doesn't care whether or not she's okay with having sex in those circumstances. That is the mindset of a rapist.

[Witsec7]

Another paradigm shift for me thanks to FJ. :D

[Deleted03]

Whether she was technically raped or not does not have any bearing on the fact that she *feels* violated and raped. I wish the advice columnist had addressed this instead of berating her. If she feels violated, they need therapy and maybe a divorce. I wonder if she was raped or sexually abused before. It could be that she gets really triggery about sex when she is out of control in any way and that certainly needs dealt with.

I agree with you. This couple has problems that need more than Ask Prudence or whomever.

[Esther]

I agree with many other posters that this is a really personal issue. I personally don't consider myself unable to consent after a few glasses of whatever liquor and I would not consider someone I was in a committed relationship with a rapist if we had sex while I was drunk - unless I explicitly said no or asked him/her to stop.

Of course, this woman clearly feels violated by her husband's actions, which means this is a problem that deserves to be taken seriously. The columnist's answer is inexcusable. I do agree something seems off about this letter, and I am not sure whether I would classify what happened here as rape per se, but I do think that this deserves much more consideration than "oh, you're a little psycho, your poor husband!!1".

[Kitchen Princess]

Did you give the guy an okay to have sex with you if you passed out, before you passed out?

Even if I were okay with someone having sex with me while I was unconscious, I would feel violated if someone had sex with me while I was unconscious without having been told beforehand that I was okay with it. From the point of view of the guy, he's having sex with an unconscious woman and doesn't care whether or not she's okay with having sex in those circumstances. That is the mindset of a rapist.

Who would even think to ask the question ahead of time?

You know, I said "passed out" but I don't know exactly what was going on. I just know I don't remember it, and I mean, I don't remember maybe, 5 or 10 minutes? Will never be convinced that I was raped. Will never be convinced that he was raping me. Even if I agreed with you, that this is the mindset of a rapist (rape is not sex, btw), what would there be to do with that information? Can't think of anything.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Who would even think to ask the question ahead of time?

You know, I said "passed out" but I don't know exactly what was going on. I just know I don't remember it, and I mean, I don't remember maybe, 5 or 10 minutes? Will never be convinced that I was raped. Will never be convinced that he was raping me. Even if I agreed with you, that this is the mindset of a rapist (rape is not sex, btw), what would there be to do with that information? Can't think of anything.

So what exactly is rape, then?

[valsa]

Who would even think to ask the question ahead of time?

You know, I said "passed out" but I don't know exactly what was going on. I just know I don't remember it, and I mean, I don't remember maybe, 5 or 10 minutes? Will never be convinced that I was raped. Will never be convinced that he was raping me. Even if I agreed with you, that this is the mindset of a rapist (rape is not sex, btw), what would there be to do with that information? Can't think of anything.

I think I'm actually going to step back from this conversation. You sound really, really defensive and kinda angry for someone who doesn't have a problem with what happened.

[E511]

Glad I'm not the only one that read Prudie constantly.

I had pretty strong feelings about this one too, and every once in awhile she makes some boneheaded responses. I'm surprised someone didn't pipe up and tell her otherwise. I feel both parties are responsible though, while the wife should be allowed to drink as much as she wants, the husband still shouldn't have betrayed her trust. But at the same time, if you willingly drink so much that you are blacking out and have to rely on the people around you to take care of you I can't have much pity on you for your choice. Just another reason to avoid situations like that completely, surrounded by people you trust or not!

[valsa]

Glad I'm not the only one that read Prudie constantly.

I had pretty strong feelings about this one too, and every once in awhile she makes some boneheaded responses. I'm surprised someone didn't pipe up and tell her otherwise. I feel both parties are responsible though, while the wife should be allowed to drink as much as she wants, the husband still shouldn't have betrayed her trust. But at the same time, if you willingly drink so much that you are blacking out and have to rely on the people around you to take care of you I can't have much pity on you for your choice. Just another reason to avoid situations like that completely, surrounded by people you trust or not!

:shock:

[dirtyhippiegirl]

Troll letter is trollish and meant to draw attention and controversy to Prudence's column.

[JesusFightClub]

Whether she was technically raped or not does not have any bearing on the fact that she *feels* violated and raped. I wish the advice columnist had addressed this instead of berating her. If she feels violated, they need therapy and maybe a divorce. I wonder if she was raped or sexually abused before. It could be that she gets really triggery about sex when she is out of control in any way and that certainly needs dealt with.

This. She obviously has huge issues with being touched sexually when under the influence and knowing this, he should not do it. If I know someone is worried about a certain thing happening when drunk (could be anything) and they get drunk in front of me, I will be careful not to do that thing and to make sure no one else does either. It's easy to say "well they just shouldn't get drunk" but all human beings make mistakes. Far be it from me to judge!

[Kitchen Princess]

I think I'm actually going to step back from this conversation. You sound really, really defensive and kinda angry for someone who doesn't have a problem with what happened.

You read that in the wrong tone of voice. :)

Rape is not sex. It's violence and assault. Choking is not a hug.

[SoybeanQueen]

I think a better answer would be to talk about marital rape and the reality of it, but in this situation to discuss it and suggest perhaps an agreement of no sex if we've been drinking.

I think that would have been much more sensitive to the topic. Marital rape, or any kind of rape, isn't something to be flippant or sarcastic about. There were more appropriate ways to answer that question, even if one doesn't agree that what happened was rape.

Definitely agree that there's more going on in that marriage than what's in the letter. My first impression, too, was that maybe she should consider not getting that drunk if she finds herself blacking out. (That is NOT to say that women who are raped bring it on themselves when drunk, because I do not believe that.) However, I do believe in being proactive and limiting the chance of getting into a bad situation. Drinking less might be one way to limit risk.

I wonder if her husband doesn't even realize she feels this way since she did consent to the sexual contact. If they were both drunk, both initiated/participated/enjoyed the event, and she never said to stop or lost consciousness, how would he know? A rule about no drunk sex might help, but I can't imagine what type of other issues there would be in a marriage where that was necessary.

It's a very strange-sounding situation all around.

[Three and Done]

:shock:

E511 - Are you fucking kidding me?? I don't give a good goddamn HOW much a person has had to drink, asshole. I don't care if they are dancing on fucking tables in the buff - NO ONE deserves to be sexually assaulted, EVER.

Get your head out of your ass, and please shut the fuck up.

[Three and Done]

You read that in the wrong tone of voice. :)

Rape is not sex. It's violence and assault. Choking is not a hug.

This mindset is very problematic to a huge number of rape/sexual assault victims. Rape does NOT always include "violence and assault".

[Noon]

Troll letter is trollish and meant to draw attention and controversy to Prudence's column.

Yep. Dear Prudence is notorious for getting fake letters being submitted (like most advice columns). I'd take this entire thing with 50 grains of salt; it's too off and too perfectly contrived to get people arguing.

[tropaka]

Imposing a rule of "no drunk sex" won't work. When drunk, people lose inhibitions and will throw the "rule" out. Better to say "don't get drunk together".

[Three and Done]

I think alcohol may trigger Prudie's letter writer, and THAT is the real issue. As someone else said, she appears to have issues with sex.

I also find certain words/actions, etc to trigger me at times, and it has caused me problems for years.