Dear Prudence's disturbing response to marital rape

[desertvixen]

Assuming the letter was legitimate (which, likely not but for the sake of discussion), I agree that the letter is missing too much detail. The issue would be the fact that he is aware that she had issues about the one time, and that even though she withdrew her stated opposition to drinking and fooling around, he should have not pushed those boundaries - just to be safe. She felt like the boundaries were violated, and her opinion is the important one.

I agree that the rules for people in a committed relationship when it comes to alcohol are a little different than when dating, if only because there should be a level of trust in a relationship.

[SoybeanQueen]

If they were both drunk, and drunk people are incapable of consent, then they were both raped.

I don't believe it's so black and white when neither party has lost consciousness or said no. If someone says no, consent is revoked. If someone loses consciousness, or appears to have lost awareness of the situation, the wisest choice, IMO, would be to assume consent is revoked. Beyond that, though, drunk sex between two adults is full of potential gray areas in terms of consent.

[E511]

E511 - Are you fucking kidding me?? I don't give a good goddamn HOW much a person has had to drink, asshole. I don't care if they are dancing on fucking tables in the buff - NO ONE deserves to be sexually assaulted, EVER.

Get your head out of your ass, and please shut the fuck up.

Wow, three posts in and such hostility. Did I say she deserved it? No. No one does, its terrible and shouldn't happen. Period. But when you are a grown ass adult drinking so much you are blacking out and have to rely on other people to keep you safe I can't have much pity. They are both at fault, her for being irresponsible and getting into the situation and him for exploiting it.

(I thought I posted this earlier but can't find it, so if it pops up as a double post my bad.)

[Maul the Koala]

Wow, three posts in and such hostility. Did I say she deserved it? No. No one does, its terrible and shouldn't happen. Period. But when you are a grown ass adult drinking so much you are blacking out and have to rely on other people to keep you safe I can't have much pity. They are both at fault, her for being irresponsible and getting into the situation and him for exploiting it.

(I thought I posted this earlier but can't find it, so if it pops up as a double post my bad.)

How charitable of you. No means no regardless of the circumstances. Blaming the victim does nothing.

[Lainey]

Yep. Dear Prudence is notorious for getting fake letters being submitted (like most advice columns). I'd take this entire thing with 50 grains of salt; it's too off and too perfectly contrived to get people arguing.

This hadn't occurred to me (I'm not familiar with Dear Prudence), but I think you two are right. That explains why it seems to be missing so much information.

[CanadianHippie]

This mindset is very problematic to a huge number of rape/sexual assault victims. Rape does NOT always include "violence and assault".

She didn't say it includes violence and assault. She said "[rape] is violence and assault". And it is. It is not a punch to the face or a kick to the stomach, but rape is by it's nature a form of violence and most definitely a form of sexual assault.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm spoiler tagging this for discussion of rape/sexual assault. Semantics lurk herein.

I find the "rape is not sex" thing to be missing the point. Rape is not always penis in vagina sex, but sex is very often a part of rape. Rape and sex are not mutually exclusive words.

A person forcing someone to have sex is rape. I know a lot of people say that rape is not about sex, it's about power, etc. but again I don't think that is mutually exclusive. Some people rape others because that is the kind of sex that they like - hurting others is what gets them off.

[Guest Anonymous]

Who would even think to ask the question ahead of time?

You know, I said "passed out" but I don't know exactly what was going on. I just know I don't remember it, and I mean, I don't remember maybe, 5 or 10 minutes? Will never be convinced that I was raped. Will never be convinced that he was raping me. Even if I agreed with you, that this is the mindset of a rapist (rape is not sex, btw), what would there be to do with that information? Can't think of anything.

Creaky Steel, if you absolutely consented of your own will with no duress involved then in my opinion of course you weren't raped. You are the only person who was in your exact situation so you're the only one who can call it.

I personally would not be okay with my partner having sex with me while I was unconscious, but that's me. I don't want to make that call for anyone else, but when I make it for myself I feel it deserves to be respected. If I told my partner that was not okay and he did it anyway, it would be rape. (Or if he did it without any prior consent. I think that sex with an unconscious person is a blanket DO NOT GO THERE without a talk and a go ahead beforehand.) Would it be worthwhile to report it to the authorities in that case? For me, almost definitely not. Unfortunately I feel that would put me through a lot of bullshit with no result. I would end the relationship over it because that would be a terrible breach of trust.

[Three and Done]

Wow, three posts in and such hostility. Did I say she deserved it? No. No one does, its terrible and shouldn't happen. Period. But when you are a grown ass adult drinking so much you are blacking out and have to rely on other people to keep you safe I can't have much pity. They are both at fault, her for being irresponsible and getting into the situation and him for exploiting it.

(I thought I posted this earlier but can't find it, so if it pops up as a double post my bad.)

Yep, act like as asshat, and someone here will definitely call you out on it.

Re-read your own words. I conveniently bolded them for you. You have no pity for someone who is raped because they are drunk? It's ok to blame the victim?

People like YOU are part of the reason why rape is so under-reported. You make me sick.

[Three and Done]

She didn't say it includes violence and assault. She said "[rape] is violence and assault". And it is. It is not a punch to the face or a kick to the stomach, but rape is by it's nature a form of violence and most definitely a form of sexual assault.

I interpreted the comment differently.

Too many times, sexual assault is not seen as an assault due to the victim not sustaining visible physical injury. That was my point.

[ShesCrafty]

Glad I'm not the only one that read Prudie constantly.

I had pretty strong feelings about this one too, and every once in awhile she makes some boneheaded responses. I'm surprised someone didn't pipe up and tell her otherwise. I feel both parties are responsible though, while the wife should be allowed to drink as much as she wants, the husband still shouldn't have betrayed her trust. But at the same time, if you willingly drink so much that you are blacking out and have to rely on the people around you to take care of you I can't have much pity on you for your choice. Just another reason to avoid situations like that completely, surrounded by people you trust or not!

That's a disgusting remark and I hope you take the time to really reflect on why people are calling you out for this. Blaming the victim is WRONG, always, and one of the reasons rape is underreported. You're attitude makes you no better than racists and bigots: someone who holds heinous beliefs.

[emmiedahl]

Glad I'm not the only one that read Prudie constantly.

I had pretty strong feelings about this one too, and every once in awhile she makes some boneheaded responses. I'm surprised someone didn't pipe up and tell her otherwise. I feel both parties are responsible though, while the wife should be allowed to drink as much as she wants, the husband still shouldn't have betrayed her trust. But at the same time, if you willingly drink so much that you are blacking out and have to rely on the people around you to take care of you I can't have much pity on you for your choice. Just another reason to avoid situations like that completely, surrounded by people you trust or not!

I just got to this and thought, I cannot wait for valsa to come and rip this one a new asshole.

I am getting out the alcohol so I can take shots as I work through the rest of the thread. Drinking game!

eta: finished the thread and valsa had some help, overall a good job FJ!

[Three and Done]

I just got to this and thought, I cannot wait for valsa to come and rip this one a new asshole.

I am getting out the alcohol so I can take shots as I work through the rest of the thread. Drinking game!

eta: finished the thread and valsa had some help, overall a good job FJ!

So, odds on E5 coming back to play? What do you think?

[emmiedahl]

We can only hope she comes back! It is late at night and I am tired of studying so a nice hairy troll to kick around would be awesome!

[Three and Done]

Sounds like a good time to me, emmiedahl.

Do you think E5 IS a she? Not that there aren't woman who fully believe in (and participate in) victim blaming, but I would imagine it's more likely E5 is male. NO offense to the awesome male FJ'ers out there, nor any other respectful male!

[Maul the Koala]

I just got to this and thought, I cannot wait for valsa to come and rip this one a new asshole.

I am getting out the alcohol so I can take shots as I work through the rest of the thread. Drinking game!

eta: finished the thread and valsa had some help, overall a good job FJ!

I feel like sometimes I need a bingo card. Daub one if...

'she was dressed slutty, so she was asking for it!'

'she was walking alone/in an unsafe area by herself, she should've known better'

"that's what happens when you're a cocktease"

"too many women accuse men of raping them when really they just regret having sex with them"

"wearing tight jeans protects you from being raped"

"she said yes to this, doesn't give her the right to change her mind halfway through"

"she didn't fight back!"

And so on and so forth.

E5 is paddling the douche canoe right now. I wonder if they will come back to continue paddling downstream right over the cliff.

Now I've made myself sick to the stomach thinking of all the excuses I've heard on 'it's not rape'. Ugh.

[Three and Done]

I feel like sometimes I need a bingo card. Daub one if...

'she was dressed slutty, so she was asking for it!'

'she was walking alone/in an unsafe area by herself, she should've known better'

"that's what happens when you're a cocktease"

"too many women accuse men of raping them when really they just regret having sex with them"

"wearing tight jeans protects you from being raped"

"she said yes to this, doesn't give her the right to change her mind halfway through"

"she didn't fight back!"

And so on and so forth.

E5 is paddling the douche canoe right now. I wonder if they will come back to continue paddling downstream right over the cliff.

Now I've made myself sick to the stomach thinking of all the excuses I've heard on 'it's not rape'. Ugh.

QFT

And THIS poor girl is experiencing a heavy dose of victim blaming, and could GO TO JAIL.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/sav ... 32753.html

I'm sure that E5 would say it was her own fault - she was drunk, ya know.

[Anise]

I interpreted the comment differently.

Too many times, sexual assault is not seen as an assault due to the victim not sustaining visible physical injury. That was my point.

I interpreted it that way too. Sexual assault/abuse does not have to involve violence. In my opinion, I would include coerced sex (as in "if you don't have sex with me, I'll commit suicide") as sexual abuse.

[E511]

Yes, I will return but not to "play." Its my opinion and its not going to change, I would feel differently if it was Sally Joe walking home from work and got raped by a stranger, but this woman put herself into that situation. For that I can't have pity. I can feel bad that she is married to a jerk that would take advantage of it, of course.

I apologize for riling up some feathers. I have been lurking here for quite some time and assumed this community was a little more receptive to opinions, and not ganging up on one person for not having pity on an irresponsible adult that can't learn from past mistakes.

Once again, I apologize (or maybe not, I gave you guys something to snark over for a few hours) but I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this storm. Have fun snarking on people over the internet, it was obviously a mistake to think I could fit in here.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

This hadn't occurred to me (I'm not familiar with Dear Prudence), but I think you two are right. That explains why it seems to be missing so much information.

:D It's working, 'tho, right? People are arguing.

(Thank you, Noon, for backing me up! Truly, advice columns were the first media for trolls.)

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes, I will return but not to "play." Its my opinion and its not going to change, I would feel differently if it was Sally Joe walking home from work and got raped by a stranger, but this woman put herself into that situation. For that I can't have pity. I can feel bad that she is married to a jerk that would take advantage of it, of course.

I apologize for riling up some feathers. I have been lurking here for quite some time and assumed this community was a little more receptive to opinions, and not ganging up on one person for not having pity on an irresponsible adult that can't learn from past mistakes.

Once again, I apologize (or maybe not, I gave you guys something to snark over for a few hours) but I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this storm. Have fun snarking on people over the internet, it was obviously a mistake to think I could fit in here.

I am beyond thrilled that rape apologists don't fit in or feel welcome here.

[Maul the Koala]

Yes, I will return but not to "play." Its my opinion and its not going to change, I would feel differently if it was Sally Joe walking home from work and got raped by a stranger, but this woman put herself into that situation. For that I can't have pity. I can feel bad that she is married to a jerk that would take advantage of it, of course.

I apologize for riling up some feathers. I have been lurking here for quite some time and assumed this community was a little more receptive to opinions, and not ganging up on one person for not having pity on an irresponsible adult that can't learn from past mistakes.

Once again, I apologize (or maybe not, I gave you guys something to snark over for a few hours) but I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this storm. Have fun snarking on people over the internet, it was obviously a mistake to think I could fit in here.

As Lissar has so helpfully pointed out, you're a rape apologist. You're no better than the people who claim a woman 'dressed like a stripper deserve to be raped'.

[valsa]

Yes, I will return but not to "play." Its my opinion and its not going to change, I would feel differently if it was Sally Joe walking home from work and got raped by a stranger, but this woman put herself into that situation. For that I can't have pity. I can feel bad that she is married to a jerk that would take advantage of it, of course.

I apologize for riling up some feathers. I have been lurking here for quite some time and assumed this community was a little more receptive to opinions, and not ganging up on one person for not having pity on an irresponsible adult that can't learn from past mistakes.

Once again, I apologize (or maybe not, I gave you guys something to snark over for a few hours) but I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this storm. Have fun snarking on people over the internet, it was obviously a mistake to think I could fit in here.

More like ganging up on someone who thinks that there is anything I can do to be responsible for a man putting his dick in me without my consent.

Like others have said, the fact you feel like you don't fit in here is a good thing to us.

[valsa]

I just got to this and thought, I cannot wait for valsa to come and rip this one a new asshole.

I am getting out the alcohol so I can take shots as I work through the rest of the thread. Drinking game!

eta: finished the thread and valsa had some help, overall a good job FJ!

*blush* Aw, and I missed all the fun due to my pesky need for occassional sleep. Good thing FJ can always be counted on to verbally bitchslap a rape apologist.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I would feel differently if it was Sally Joe walking home from work and got raped by a stranger, but this woman put herself into that situation. For that I can't have pity.

That is absolutely vile. We don't know the whole story, but if a woman drinks too much and is unable to consent (and no, I don't think that alcohol automatically = inability to consent, and I agree there is information missing here, but for the sake of this particular argument, let's go with "she was drunk and was not comfortable having sex") that DOES NOT GIVE ANY MAN THE RIGHT TO HAVE SEX WITH HER. Fuck, how do you even think that's ok?