Question on heaven?

[ohmeohmy]

Chaotic life, I'm so sorry. Thinking of you and your family. Wishing I could give you a real life hug, and not an internet stranger one.

[slickcat79]

First a party. Then 100,000 years of volleyball, followed by 50,000 years of Monopoly. Yes, that would be about 3 games.

TLGGKraKmXc

[DifferentGurl]

My family sometimes like to talk about what would happen in heaven and it has nothing to do with praising God all day. More like stuff like if you're a baby, do you grow up to an adult? If you're a senior-citizen, do you become young? What would be considered "beautiful" in heaven? That kind of stuff. For me, I think heaven would just be a place where all your desires happen.

[DifferentGurl]

First a party. Then 100,000 years of volleyball, followed by 50,000 years of Monopoly. Yes, that would be about 3 games.

TLGGKraKmXc

I hope the party isn't like one of those parties with no dancing, no music, no interesting games...pretty much a party a fundie like the Duggars would have.

[julie paradox]

theologygeek:

your uncle saw Jesus as having blue eyes and blond hair?

Don't you think that demonstrates just the teensiest bit of preconception bias?

I like to think that heaven is full of people doing More Stuff: Mozart has got really into glam rock, Rutherford is pushing the boundaries of string theory, and Fabian Stedman and friends are change-ringing on twenty-four bells. But I tend to look on it as mildly irrelevant: it's not the point.

[debrand]

Although I don't believe in god, I have no idea what theologygeek's uncle saw. Who knows, maybe there is something else? However, Jesus was a first century Jewish male. He would have had dark skin and eyes. Chances are he would have been short also. Based on that alone, I have my doubts about your uncle's vision.

Sometimes people unknowingly feed answers to others. You see this on shows with psychics. The questioner accidentally feeds the reciever the knowledge that they need. Theologygeek, were you in the room when your uncle told each of your cousins what they were doing while he was dead? If not, how can you be certain that their love for him and desire to believe in a heaven didn't lead them to accidentally feed him the correct answers? I'm not saying that he is dishonest either. If I knew him and felt that his experience brought him comfort, I would keep my mouth shut about my doubts.

If the question is, "Is there something after we die?" My answer woud be, I don't know. Christian heaven makes no logical sense, just as the existence of an all knowing, all loving but vengeful god is not logical. So, I am comfortable in saying tht there is no Christian type of heaven. However, do we join with some greater cosmic something? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. I will not put anyone down for wanting to believe in an after life because sometimes humans need comfort and as long as they are not forcing their beliefs on me, I can let them have their comfort.

The older I get, the less certain my answers become.

edited for clarity

[theologygeek]

theologygeek:

your uncle saw Jesus as having blue eyes and blond hair?

Don't you think that demonstrates just the teensiest bit of preconception bias?

Maybe the appearance changes according to what the person is familiar with. I was not there. But I am open minded enough to say that it is possible. There is no logical explanation for my uncle being able to see his kids either, but he saw them.

[urban teacher]

I prefer thinking of heaven like Scarlet and Miniver in which it is full of everyone including Eleanor of Aquitainewho is bored out of her mind.

[Peas n carrots]

Maybe the appearance changes according to what the person is familiar with. I was not there. But I am open minded enough to say that it is possible. There is no logical explanation for my uncle being able to see his kids either, but he saw them.

Jesus is a shapeshifter?

I really hope if there is a Jesus he appears to me as a Brontosaurus.

[Guest Anonymous]

Maybe the appearance changes according to what the person is familiar with. I was not there. But I am open minded enough to say that it is possible. There is no logical explanation for my uncle being able to see his kids either, but he saw them.

theologygeek, I think the best logical explanation for this was that it was a dream. Fairly standard stuff.

You also said:

My uncle had a heart attack in the hospital and they were trying to bring him back to life. He went through the tunnel, got to heaven, saw Jesus-the whole bit. The things he saw could not have any explanation other than that he was really in heaven. He had five children, and saw what each one of them was doing at the time, which was confirmed when he discussed it with them. They were not in the hospital at the time.

I am fairly confident that this sort of thing can be confirmed in someone's mind through repetition and confirmation, with the rough edges being smoothed out as the story is told again and again. What your uncle went through sounds a lot like a dream.

[lamariposa]

The timing of this question is funny because yesterday morning during breakfast (as in, the meal we get to indulge in now that we don't have to be up at asscrack in the morning to attend service) my husband was like 'What was the point of always going on about everyone having their own mansion in heaven if supposedly we aren't going to 'give each other in marriage' and our kids won't be like our kids or our parents like they were in Earth???' We just pondered how nonsensical it was and the double-message of not wanting for material things but having this great hope of having your own mansion and crown full of rubies :?

[theologygeek]

Theologygeek, were you in the room when your uncle told each of your cousins what they were doing while he was dead? If not, how can you be certain that their love for him and desire to believe in a heaven didn't lead them to accidentally feed him the correct answers? I'm not saying that he is dishonest either. If I knew him and felt that his experience brought him comfort, I would keep my mouth shut about my doubts.

I wasn't at the hospital, but his son-in-law was. That story was the first thing that came out of my uncle's mouth when he could speak, and he told his sil. His sil was at the house not even a month ago putting in a new front window and we were talking about it. I could listen to it over and over and never tire of it. It's really fascinating hearing it from my cousin's husband who was the first to hear it. I can't hear it from my uncle any more because he is gone, but the story never changed. My uncle wanted to tell as many people as he could what happened. He was not obsessively religious by any means. He was a live wire and quite the firecracker before the heart attack.

[Guest Anonymous]

At this exact moment, my brother is sitting on his sofa, in his filthy, college-style shared house. He has his old guitar on his lap but he is not playing it. Instead, he is watching an action movie with his roommates and they are talking through it. My mother is asleep in her bed, snoring loudly, and having a really frustrating dream about her work.

There is no way that I could know that these things are true but, if I checked them right now, I am so very certain that it will turn out to be the case. This is not because of God or heaven or some latent psychic powers. It is because I know my family, I know their habits. It is not unusual.

[theologygeek]

At this exact moment, my brother is sitting on his sofa, in his filthy, college-style shared house. He has his old guitar on his lap but he is not playing it. Instead, he is watching an action movie with his roommates and they are talking through it. My mother is asleep in her bed, snoring loudly, and having a really frustrating dream about her work.

There is no way that I could know that these things are true but, if I checked them right now, I am so very certain that it will turn out to be the case. This is not because of God or heaven or some latent psychic powers. It is because I know my family, I know their habits. It is not unusual.

I highly doubt that you would know the very moment that your pregnant family member was moving bedroom furniture.

[Guest Anonymous]

I highly doubt that you would know the very moment that your pregnant family member was moving bedroom furniture.

Perhaps not, but your uncle did not "know the very moment". He was unconscious. It was not as if he could look down at his watch and say "It's 4:45 and Betsy is moving the couch out away from the wall". In however many minutes, or hours, that elapsed between his falling into unconsciousness and then waking up again, a thing happened and your uncle had a dream that a similar thing happened within the same blurry time frame. The sameness of these events was bolstered in everybody's memories by their frequent repetition in family storytelling and now you just need it to be true.

[Peas n carrots]

Although I don't believe in god, I have no idea what theologygeek's uncle saw. Who knows, maybe there is something else? However, Jesus was a first century Jewish male. He would have had dark skin and eyes. Chances are he would have been short also. Based on that alone, I have my doubts about your uncle's vision.

Sometimes people unknowingly feed answers to others. You see this on shows with psychics. The questioner accidentally feeds the reciever the knowledge that they need. Theologygeek, were you in the room when your uncle told each of your cousins what they were doing while he was dead? If not, how can you be certain that their love for him and desire to believe in a heaven didn't lead them to accidentally feed him the correct answers? I'm not saying that he is dishonest either. If I knew him and felt that his experience brought him comfort, I would keep my mouth shut about my doubts.

If the question is, "Is there something after we die?" My answer woud be, I don't know. Christian heaven makes no logical sense, just as the existence of an all knowing, all loving but vengeful god is not logical. So, I am comfortable in saying tht there is no Christian type of heaven. However, do we join with some greater cosmic something? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. I will not put anyone down for wanting to believe in an after life because sometimes humans need comfort and as long as they are not forcing their beliefs on me, I can let them have their comfort.

The older I get, the less certain my answers become.

edited for clarity

This (bolded).

Blonde hair and blue eyed? Jesus sounds Swedish. That point got me as well...

I dont know your uncle, but I will give him credit and say that he sincerely believe what he experienced. That doesn't validate the existence of heaven though. It's a great story, but that is all it is....a great story.

I'm atheist as well, but I do have once incident in which I've never been quite able to explain. On this particular day it was my second day at my new job. I had lost my previous FT job some months before, and had moved back in with my parents until I was able to get back on my feet. As I had literally just started the new job, my family did not have my new work number (and no cell phone due to being broke). So I put in my hours, went to my second PT job at a call center, where once again I could not be contacted. After that was a 40 minute drive home...getting back to my parents house around 10:45 pm.

As I pulled up to the house, I just knew...I can't tell you how or why...but I knew my grandpa was dead. There were no outward indications when I pulled up to the house something was up...no extended family's vehicles, and the living room light was the only light on (which was typical since usually most of my family did not go to bed until after 11 pm). Everything looked normal...but I went in and my mom was up and broke the news my grandpa had suddenly died earlier that day and she had no way of reaching me sooner.

I don't know how or why I knew. Perhaps there is some kind of energy that hasnt been investigated by scientists that I picked up on. I'll even come out and say maybe there were subtle cues I picked up on in my subconscious that I can't really identify in my memory of the day. But I can't say that Jesus gave me a heads up or my grandpas ghost was involved. There is no proof of either and I just chalk it up to something I can't explain.

I suppose perhaps what I'm getting at is why are so many people not ok with saying "I don't know" and instead abandon logic in coming to their conclusions.

[RachelB]

Chaotic life, I'm so sorry you're hurting. Your child knows that he is loved beyond measure. I'm sending a gentle hand-squeeze of commiseration to you, if you'd like one.

Being human, I don't know what comes after death. But I find it comforting to think of heaven as being a state of reconciliation and restoration, a state in which we become our best and truest selves. Because I experience the Divine as inclusive and loving and patient, I'm a universalist, which means everybody's in my version of heaven. In this version, I'm going to spend eternity with some people I (currently) don't like very much, in addition to people I adore-- it's just that we'll finally be able to understand what God sees in each other.

If Pa Maxwell is right and heaven is a very exclusive party, I am not interested, even in the unlikely invent that I am invited.

[Cran]

I haven't researched this, but can't near-death experiences also be connected with out-of-body experiences? That would account for all this "I knew exactly what he was doing aat that time" stuff.

[theologygeek]

Perhaps not, but your uncle did not "know the very moment". He was unconscious. It was not as if he could look down at his watch and say "It's 4:45 and Betsy is moving the couch out away from the wall". In however many minutes, or hours, that elapsed between his falling into unconsciousness and then waking up again, a thing happened and your uncle had a dream that a similar thing happened within the same blurry time frame. The sameness of these events was bolstered in everybody's memories by their frequent repetition in family storytelling and now you just need it to be true.

He was only "dead" a couple of minutes. lol He told his sil everything he saw. I'm sorry, but some of these responses are making me laugh. They're as bad as fundies who think that something can't possibly be because it doesn't line up with their beliefs. Some people who don't believe in God do the same things that fundies do without realizing it.

[Guest Anonymous]

He was only "dead" a couple of minutes. lol He told his sil everything he saw. I'm sorry, but some of these responses are making me laugh. They're as bad as fundies who think that something can't possibly be because it doesn't line up with their beliefs. Some people who don't believe in God do the same things that fundies do without realizing it.

You certainly have an interesting use of the term "lol". I certainly wouldn't apply it to a now dead relative having a heart attack.

Regarding the main thing, I am perfectly happy to agree to disagree. The thing I disagree with you on, mostly, is your idea that there could be no logical explanations for what happened. There do seem to be some, fairly straightforward, logical explanations. I just gave you my ideas about them.

[fakepigtails73]

Will heaven have Norwegian black metal?

I sure hope so! If there's no metal it ain't a place I wanna spend eternity in. Muzak and chamber only? Thanks but no thanks... :twisted:

I also hope that I'd get to see one of my fave bass player, Cliff Burton, play his bass up there (or down below, depending...) I have always thought that some descriptions of heaven were boring (playing harp all day on a clowd, really??) but their vision of hell seemed better. Whatever...

There's a fundie book out in which the author asserts that heaven has sidewalks made of gold (how tacky...) and one can spend the day chatting politics with fellow heaven residents such as Charles de Gaulle and Winston Churchill, while enjoying a good cigar and a scotch. At the end of the book the author answered FAQs, and one asked if in heaven he could smoke a ganja spliff with Bob Marley and Jimi Hendrix; author replied that unfortunately he couldn't, because cannabis is illegal. WTF? Why will earthly laws such as drug prohibition apply in the eternal kingdom??

Goes to show you how much of BS that was...I wish I'd remember how he received all that heaven info.

[Rachel333]

He was only "dead" a couple of minutes. lol He told his sil everything he saw. I'm sorry, but some of these responses are making me laugh. They're as bad as fundies who think that something can't possibly be because it doesn't line up with their beliefs. Some people who don't believe in God do the same things that fundies do without realizing it.

No, people suggesting that there are reasonable non-supernatural explanations for a third-hand anecdote really isn't the same as fundies rejecting logic for their beliefs.

[Cran]

Near-death-experiences are that: NEAR DEATH. People who have them are not death, but near death/between death and life. Note the difference.

[Rachel333]

Interestingly, a lot of people have near-death experiences without even being close to death at all. What matters more is that you think you're near death.

[keen23]

The Reverend in the UCC church I grew up attending preached a very comforting version of heaven (which I shall paraphrase)- a large feast where there's enough to eat forever, with everyone you've ever known and will know. You move around and get to spend time with everyone for eternity. There is no hell- those who don't deserve full heaven privileges have their arms bound to large pieces of wood so they can't do things for themselves and have to depend on the kindness of others to function.

Even as a non-believer, I find this version to be pretty innocuous. His version of heaven was a big, never ending party. Which is pretty preferable to a sexless, joyless, un-ending church service that some of our favorite fundies seem to desire.